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Post by FilmFlaneur on Mar 22, 2024 18:30:56 GMT
Indeed, which is why for me (and I suspect others) it would be a red line event - something to compel immediate conversion. But any omniscient god would know that.
Answer's in the question, there would be no FAITH involved then, and without faith there is no genuine conversion.
Where there is evidence there is no need for faith. I am not sure why one cannot be genuinely converted by persuasive evidence. Even your Jesus appreciated that not everyone is as credulous as might ideally be wished "“Unless you people see signs and wonders,” Jesus told him, “you will never believe.” John 4:48
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Post by FilmFlaneur on Mar 22, 2024 18:33:17 GMT
Once again: you do know that the Adam and Eve tale is not historical, right? You still write as if it ought to be taken as so and literally true. I realize yes; but, I am discussing the role of the snake in the story with amyghost , as to who it was or supposed to be. I take the point about the snake . Never the less much of what you said has the tenor of being accepted as literally true.
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Post by clusium on Mar 22, 2024 21:09:15 GMT
I realize yes; but, I am discussing the role of the snake in the story with amyghost , as to who it was or supposed to be. I take the point about the snake . Never the less much of what you said has the tenor of being accepted as literally true. Much of what is in mythology have elements of truth in them. Heracles, aka Hercules, was probably inspired by some man who lived thousands of years ago in ancient Greece, who was exceptionally, physically strong, & because of this, people probably said that this individual must have been a son of Zeus to that strong.
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Post by novastar6 on Mar 23, 2024 6:13:39 GMT
Answer's in the question, there would be no FAITH involved then, and without faith there is no genuine conversion.
Where there is evidence there is no need for faith. I am not sure why one cannot be genuinely converted by persuasive evidence. Even your Jesus appreciated that not everyone is as credulous as might ideally be wished "“Unless you people see signs and wonders,” Jesus told him, “you will never believe.” John 4:48
You're forgetting that even in Biblical times when people actually SAW God, they still didn't all believe, they still did not all obey, they disobeyed His rules and then bitched and moaned about their lives were so terrible and failed to see any connection between the two. So if that in itself wasn't enough proof, there will never be enough to convince people who refuse to believe.
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Post by amyghost on Mar 23, 2024 11:31:02 GMT
Where there is evidence there is no need for faith. I am not sure why one cannot be genuinely converted by persuasive evidence. Even your Jesus appreciated that not everyone is as credulous as might ideally be wished "“Unless you people see signs and wonders,” Jesus told him, “you will never believe.” John 4:48
You're forgetting that even in Biblical times when people actually SAW God, they still didn't all believe, they still did not all obey, they disobeyed His rules and then bitched and moaned about their lives were so terrible and failed to see any connection between the two. So if that in itself wasn't enough proof, there will never be enough to convince people who refuse to believe.
If they actually SAW God back in 'Biblical times', why don't they see him now? Did God post a cutoff date for when he'd make in-person appearances to humanity? Or did he just get pissy because of those darned nonbelievers and is off sulking someplace? If it's the latter, he sounds suspiciously human rather than perfect and infallible. It's more like there'll never be enough evidence to demonstrate that God is a mythical being, not an actual one, to the endlessly credulous.
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Post by clusium on Mar 23, 2024 14:12:40 GMT
You're forgetting that even in Biblical times when people actually SAW God, they still didn't all believe, they still did not all obey, they disobeyed His rules and then bitched and moaned about their lives were so terrible and failed to see any connection between the two. So if that in itself wasn't enough proof, there will never be enough to convince people who refuse to believe.
If they actually SAW God back in 'Biblical times', why don't they see him now? Did God post a cutoff date for when he'd make in-person appearances to humanity? Or did he just get pissy because of those darned nonbelievers and is off sulking someplace? If it's the latter, he sounds suspiciously human rather than perfect and infallible. It's more like there'll never be enough evidence to demonstrate that God is a mythical being, not an actual one, to the endlessly credulous. There are still people who can see God, His Mother angels & Saints.
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Post by FilmFlaneur on Mar 23, 2024 20:02:34 GMT
Where there is evidence there is no need for faith. I am not sure why one cannot be genuinely converted by persuasive evidence. Even your Jesus appreciated that not everyone is as credulous as might ideally be wished "“Unless you people see signs and wonders,” Jesus told him, “you will never believe.” John 4:48
You're forgetting that even in Biblical times when people actually SAW God, they still didn't all believe, they still did not all obey, they disobeyed His rules and then bitched and moaned about their lives were so terrible and failed to see any connection between the two. So if that in itself wasn't enough proof, there will never be enough to convince people who refuse to believe.
Jesus, it may be noted, did not say " Even when you people see signs and wonders you will never believe" did he? No doubt that there will always be those who will always refuse to believe. But there is a large middle ground between the obdurate and the credulous. Arms and legs growing back at Lourdes immediately after prayer would undoubtedly be enough to bring many more of these into the fold without coercion, including me. If I know this, then an alleged all-knowing deity does too. And yet He only seems unable or unwilling to offer this miracle, one of the few which would be unfakeable and demonstrably miraculous - unlike all the others claimed from there. Funny that.
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Post by FilmFlaneur on Mar 23, 2024 20:12:11 GMT
If they actually SAW God back in 'Biblical times', why don't they see him now? Did God post a cutoff date for when he'd make in-person appearances to humanity? Or did he just get pissy because of those darned nonbelievers and is off sulking someplace? If it's the latter, he sounds suspiciously human rather than perfect and infallible. It's more like there'll never be enough evidence to demonstrate that God is a mythical being, not an actual one, to the endlessly credulous. There are still people who can see God, His Mother angels & Saints. Some people can see anything, given the right levels of credulity, dubious conditions and group suggestion. The only secular, English-language account of the Our Lady of Zeitoun events was provided by Cynthia Nelson, a professor of anthropology at the American University in Cairo. She visited the church site on several occasions including 15 April 1968, another week later near the end of April, and on 1 June 1968. Despite reports of regular appearances of the Virgin Mary, Nelson did not see anything that could be identified clearly as such. Instead she only saw a few "intermittent flashes of light" and later, a glow of ambiguous shape shining through palm trees. "But", she admitted, "the source of the light was a mystery, for the streetlights had been disconnected all around the church for several days... ... Photos of the event are numerous, though sometimes inconsistent. Most of the photos are blurry or of poor quality, though some do seem to show the Virgin Mary regardless. One of them is either an illustration over a less detailed photo, or a complete illustration, depending on the source.The sourcing for the most popular photo is unclear, and some skeptics have mentioned inconsistencies such as the bright sunlight on the onlookers heads, while the sky looks black, or the apparition seeming translucent despite other photographs and witness testimony describing it as opaque and very bright. In Cynthia Nelson's report, she noted that many photos and pictures of the apparition were being sold in the marketplace, which could add a financial incentive for forgery en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Our_Lady_of_ZeitounIf the BVM wanted to appear and make an undoubted impact, why hover on a roof in questionable conditions? Why not just appear in daylight in the Egyptian parliament and speak to the country there? That would work to convince many.
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Post by amyghost on Mar 24, 2024 0:31:23 GMT
If they actually SAW God back in 'Biblical times', why don't they see him now? Did God post a cutoff date for when he'd make in-person appearances to humanity? Or did he just get pissy because of those darned nonbelievers and is off sulking someplace? If it's the latter, he sounds suspiciously human rather than perfect and infallible. It's more like there'll never be enough evidence to demonstrate that God is a mythical being, not an actual one, to the endlessly credulous. There are still people who can see God, His Mother angels & Saints. There are people who say they see many things.
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Post by Winston Wolfe on Mar 31, 2024 0:42:27 GMT
Well, if that poorly made POS video says it, it must be true!
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