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Post by Leo of Red Keep on Jul 10, 2017 4:57:37 GMT
People will still say she forced him to do it…  |
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Post by Aj_June on Jul 10, 2017 7:32:05 GMT
Lol.....  That's funny. Just as much as one in which he was on loud speaker informing everyone of incest story. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 10, 2017 20:36:35 GMT
Is it really that strange that a child has the same hair color as his mother ?
I mean i know that she had sex with her brother. But for proving incest the not having the same hair color as the father is pretty stupid it does not prove incest. It just proves that the children got the same hair color as their mother.
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Post by Leo of Red Keep on Jul 11, 2017 2:29:14 GMT
Is it really that strange that a child has the same hair color as his mother ? I mean i know that she had sex with her brother. But for proving incest the not having the same hair color as the father is pretty stupid it does not prove incest. It just proves that the children got the same hair color as their mother. The lion seed is strong. Starks are stupid. It is known. |
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Post by Aj_June on Jul 11, 2017 10:19:15 GMT
Is it really that strange that a child has the same hair color as his mother ? I mean i know that she had sex with her brother. But for proving incest the not having the same hair color as the father is pretty stupid it does not prove incest. It just proves that the children got the same hair color as their mother. The lion seed is strong. Starks are stupid. It is known. The lion gene is intelligent. They are not weak either but they are not known for bravery. Tywin Lannister's father was a coward. But Lannisters have been known to be clever right from the days of Lann the Clever. Starks have their own legacy though they are not known for intelligence. |
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Post by Leo of Red Keep on Jul 11, 2017 11:08:28 GMT
The lion seed is strong. Starks are stupid. It is known. The lion gene is intelligent. They are not weak either but they are not known for bravery. Tywin Lannister's father was a coward. But Lannisters have been known to be clever right from the days of Lann the Clever. Starks have their own legacy though they are not known for intelligence. "You're brave, stupid but brave." Ygritte to Jon, Bravery is a quality the cunning praise in fools they motivate to go risk their lives for them. The Starks have all the qualities fools need to be useful to others. They are dogs, good soldiers, good servants of anything they are told is worth serving. Their ultimate motivation is acceptance. They rely on sayings everyone respects. Even their motto is safe. Some say they look like fools half of the time. They're wrong. |
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Post by Aj_June on Jul 12, 2017 6:40:21 GMT
The lion gene is intelligent. They are not weak either but they are not known for bravery. Tywin Lannister's father was a coward. But Lannisters have been known to be clever right from the days of Lann the Clever. Starks have their own legacy though they are not known for intelligence. "You're brave, stupid but brave." Ygritte to Jon, Bravery is a quality the cunning praise in fools they motivate to go risk their lives for them. The Starks have all the qualities fools need to be useful to others. They are dogs, good soldiers, good servants of anything they are told is worth serving. Their ultimate motivation is acceptance. They rely on sayings everyone respects. Even their motto is safe. Some say they look like fools half of the time. They're wrong.
Just as Lannisters are known for intelligence and manipulative skills but are not weak either, Starks are known for bravery, honour and caring about their people but are not foolish either. They have ruled the north for virtually the entire time in spite of facing Boltons and other northerners. Their history is no way any less than Lannister history and in fact more legendary. When we are talking about "seed" we do have to see their entire history and expected future and not just worst time of Starks. |
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Post by Leo of Red Keep on Jul 12, 2017 7:38:32 GMT
"You're brave, stupid but brave." Ygritte to Jon. Just as Lannisters are known for intelligence and manipulative skills but are not weak either, Starks are known for bravery, honour and caring about their people but are not foolish either. They have ruled the north for virtually the entire time in spite of facing Boltons and other northerners. Their history is no way any less than Lannister history and in fact more legendary. When we are talking about "seed" we do have to see their entire history and expected future and not just worst time of Starks. I have my doubts about this last statement. Actually I'm going to contradict it. The Starks were a strong house of course, just like the Lannisters. Both had their ups and downs, their qualities making and keeping them what they were. This is indisputable, for all to see. What is really worth discussing is what we see. What once was is there to serve as a counterpoint, as an example of what remains, what has improved or what was lost. When I speak of the Starks, I speak of the family Eddard and Catelyn Stark have raised. It is the only thing that matters, the same way the Lannisters are what Tywin raised. It is the only thing that matters, not because they are what takes the story forward but because it is the only thing we see enough of to take party, to debate and evaluate with some level of detail and realism. Realism is the key here because the characters of GoT are nothing but modern psychological types in medieval costumes. That's why we can relate to them in spite of the story presenting us with dragons or reanimated corpses. I don't believe the Stark or Lannister seeds are very different in their potential. The Andals are no different from the First Men in this regard, the same way the old Celts were no different from the Anglo-Saxons who came to push them aside. Lannisters, however, have a culture of intelligence which the modern Starks obviously have not. It is worth discussing because culture is what makes the difference. I cannot help seeing the Stark family as the massive failure of parents to educate their children. Granted, they didn't have much time for the youngest, but Jon and Sansa were essentially left to dream of nonsense while Arya was untamed. Only Robb was shown to have received some serious education in leading people but he was kept naive in terms of understanding their motivations, lost in the fog of honourable delusions his father gave him. It got him killed. "I suppose it makes sense. Your older brother was trained to lead and you were trained to follow" Cersei told Ned. How right she was, once again. Do not ever believe those who tell you "she's not as smart as she thinks she is". They are the fools. Ned Stark was really just a good dog.  The only Stark I like is unsurprisingly Sansa, the one who was closer to Catelyn. Or is it because Cersei helped wake her up? |
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Post by hi224 on Jul 12, 2017 8:28:36 GMT
Reminds me how much Ned can get on my nerves at times as well.
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Post by Leo of Red Keep on Jul 12, 2017 8:52:37 GMT
Reminds me how much Ned can get on my nerves at times as well. It is intended. This show is smarter than a lot of its audience, especially in earlier seasons, which explains for the massive quality drop in the writing. The original material, in GRRM's books, makes a point of giving characters good and bad qualities, in addition to playing tricks in the way we see them through biased point of views. The man you first see as the good family father ends up blundering his way through a pit of snakes and deciding to trigger a war to clean it all up, without concern for the amount of damage it will cause. A season later, a nurse on the battlefield tells Robb Stark, the proposed hero of the story at this point, the wounded were unlucky he was there. It is as if the authors wanted to show that everything is "a little more complicated" than people wish it to be. Syrio Forel, telling Arya about "true seeing" plays right into this. |
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Post by Ad○rably Obn○xi○us🐢 on Jul 12, 2017 14:01:42 GMT
Just as Lannisters are known for intelligence and manipulative skills but are not weak either, Starks are known for bravery, honour and caring about their people but are not foolish either. They have ruled the north for virtually the entire time in spite of facing Boltons and other northerners. Their history is no way any less than Lannister history and in fact more legendary. When we are talking about "seed" we do have to see their entire history and expected future and not just worst time of Starks. I have my doubts about this last statement. Actually I'm going to contradict it. The Starks were a strong house of course, just like the Lannisters. Both had their ups and downs, their qualities making and keeping them what they were. This is indisputable, for all to see. What is really worth discussing is what we see. What once was is there to serve as a counterpoint, as an example of what remains, what has improved or what was lost. When I speak of the Starks, I speak of the family Eddard and Catelyn Stark have raised. It is the only thing that matters, the same way the Lannisters are what Tywin raised. It is the only thing that matters, not because they are what takes the story forward but because it is the only thing we see enough of to take party, to debate and evaluate with some level of detail and realism. Realism is the key here because the characters of GoT are nothing but modern psychological types in medieval costumes. That's why we can relate to them in spite of the story presenting us with dragons or reanimated corpses. I don't believe the Stark or Lannister seeds are very different in their potential. The Andals are no different from the First Men in this regard, the same way the old Celts were no different from the Anglo-Saxons who came to push them aside. Lannisters, however, have a culture of intelligence which the modern Starks obviously have not. It is worth discussing because culture is what makes the difference. I cannot help seeing the Stark family as the massive failure of parents to educate their children. Granted, they didn't have much time for the youngest, but Jon and Sansa were essentially left to dream of nonsense while Arya was untamed. Only Robb was shown to have received some serious education in leading people but he was kept naive in terms of understanding their motivations, lost in the fog of honourable delusions his father gave him. It got him killed. "I suppose it makes sense. Your older brother was trained to lead and you were trained to follow" Cersei told Ned. How right she was, once again. Do not ever believe those who tell you "she's not as smart as she thinks she is". They are the fools. Ned Stark was really just a good dog. The only Stark I like is unsurprisingly Sansa, the one who was closer to Catelyn. Or is it because Cersei helped wake her up? The exact same thing can be said of Joffrey, the psychopathic little fucker (nature or nurture?) versus Tommen, the sweet but not particularly bright and very weak younger brother. Myrcella seemed to be an alright sort of lady, rather like Sansa was at one point-innocent, flighty, but luckier by far with who she was to end up with. RIP Trystane. Arya's "untamed" nature is what allowed her to survive this far. Myrcella would have died long before she did in Arya's situation. All of the families put their eggs in their oldest son's baskets. Pitting Joffrey against Robb is an absolute nobrainer. Sansa? At this point, I'm leaning towards slapping the shit out of her until I see if she outmanipulates Littlefinger. If she does, she earns the respect over all other children, especially the Lannisters. As it is, Arya gets it up to this point. Bottom line...there are still three, four if you count John, of the Stark kids alive. There are no Lannister kids left, so it really doesn't matter in the end. The Starks win this one-so far. We'll see how many Starks are left alive by the end of the series. |
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Post by Leo of Red Keep on Jul 12, 2017 14:33:41 GMT
The exact same thing can be said of Joffrey, the psychopathic little fucker (nature or nurture?) versus Tommen, the sweet but not particularly bright and very weak younger brother. Myrcella seemed to be an alright sort of lady, rather like Sansa was at one point-innocent, flighty, but luckier by far with who she was to end up with. RIP Trystane. Arya's "untamed" nature is what allowed her to survive this far. Myrcella would have died long before she did in Arya's situation. All of the families put their eggs in their oldest son's baskets. Pitting Joffrey against Robb is an absolute nobrainer. Sansa? At this point, I'm leaning towards slapping the shit out of her until I see if she outmanipulates Littlefinger. If she does, she earns the respect over all other children, especially the Lannisters. As it is, Arya gets it up to this point. Bottom line...there are still three, four if you count John, of the Stark kids alive. There are no Lannister kids left, so it really doesn't matter in the end. The Starks win this one-so far. We'll see how many Starks are left alive by the end of the series. Joffrey clearly lacked a father. We saw Cersei doing a good job with him but he had all the uncertainty of a boy who's lived with the women and is painfully aware that he's never learned to win a fist fight. Tommen and Myrcella are very young at the beginning of the story, younger than Bran, it seems and their education is somehow cut short. Myrcella is sent away and Tommen becomes king unprepared because everyone around him has been just busy surviving the whole thing. Tywin did form all his children while Ned sent an utterly naive Jon to the Wall (he had to learn from Tyrion what the Night's Watch really was) and Sansa wasn't prepared to anything either. The bottom line is not about who survives. The Starks make it by sheer number and embody the popular belief that the innocent are better people. |
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Post by hi224 on Jul 12, 2017 16:10:32 GMT
Reminds me how much Ned can get on my nerves at times as well. It is intended. This show is smarter than a lot of its audience, especially in earlier seasons, which explains for the massive quality drop in the writing. The original material, in GRRM's books, makes a point of giving characters good and bad qualities, in addition to playing tricks in the way we see them through biased point of views. The man you first see as the good family father ends up blundering his way through a pit of snakes and deciding to trigger a war to clean it all up, without concern for the amount of damage it will cause. A season later, a nurse on the battlefield tells Robb Stark, the proposed hero of the story at this point, the wounded were unlucky he was there. It is as if the authors wanted to show that everything is "a little more complicated" than people wish it to be. Syrio Forel, telling Arya about "true seeing" plays right into this. Yes i know its intended. |
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Post by Ad○rably Obn○xi○us🐢 on Jul 12, 2017 18:12:47 GMT
The exact same thing can be said of Joffrey, the psychopathic little fucker (nature or nurture?) versus Tommen, the sweet but not particularly bright and very weak younger brother. Myrcella seemed to be an alright sort of lady, rather like Sansa was at one point-innocent, flighty, but luckier by far with who she was to end up with. RIP Trystane. Arya's "untamed" nature is what allowed her to survive this far. Myrcella would have died long before she did in Arya's situation. All of the families put their eggs in their oldest son's baskets. Pitting Joffrey against Robb is an absolute nobrainer. Sansa? At this point, I'm leaning towards slapping the shit out of her until I see if she outmanipulates Littlefinger. If she does, she earns the respect over all other children, especially the Lannisters. As it is, Arya gets it up to this point. Bottom line...there are still three, four if you count John, of the Stark kids alive. There are no Lannister kids left, so it really doesn't matter in the end. The Starks win this one-so far. We'll see how many Starks are left alive by the end of the series. Joffrey clearly lacked a father. We saw Cersei doing a good job with him but he had all the uncertainty of a boy who's lived with the women and is painfully aware that he's never learned to win a fist fight. Tommen and Myrcella are very young at the beginning of the story, younger than Bran, it seems and their education is somehow cut short. Myrcella is sent away and Tommen becomes king unprepared because everyone around him has been just busy surviving the whole thing. Tywin did form all his children while Ned sent an utterly naive Jon to the Wall (he had to learn from Tyrion what the Night's Watch really was) and Sansa wasn't prepared to anything either. The bottom line is not about who survives. The Starks make it by sheer number and embody the popular belief that the innocent are better people. Joffrey lacked his real father, who he didn't know was his real father. He had a father. Whether Robert Baratheon spent any time with him or how much isn't made clear, but what is made clear is highborn always have many different people to whom the parents turn for teaching things-archery, seeing, sword fighting, etc. Joffrey no doubt had access to any number of them. He was a little monster because he was never disciplined, and that falls squarely on Cersei. By the time she knew how bad he was it was way too late. The Starks did a much better job of raising well rounded kids even if they lacked in some areas, but the fact that the kids are all decent speaks to upbringing. Cersei seemed to do a great job with Myrcella and Tommen but they suffered from the same thing the rest of the Statk children did save Robb, as well as most if not all other children in every house, which is the whole all-in-one thing I mentioned before. It actually doesn't make much sense, each house should have taught all their children the same considering the high death rate they had in those days. It would make much more sense to make sure every child knew as much as they could in the tragic event not all of them made it to adulthood or not far past. They did show Arya and Sansa doing sewing, and Bran (and I think Rickon, I don't remember) doing archery so the Starks didn't entirely neglect their younger children in favor of Robb, but nothing was ever shown being done with the Lannister children. I don't know if that was deliberate for the inference that Joffrey was raised a spoiled brat that was never told no and turned into a murdering psycho because of it, or a bona fide oversight. Either way, the Starks raised 5 fairly well-rounded kids and the Lannisters were only 2 out of 3. I don't say Cersei didn't love her kids, she clearly did, but intelligence alone wasn't going to save Joffrey from his fate. The Starks seemed to plan for their children's future more and invested time and energy in making sure they had a wealth of activities to engage them and their survival up to this point is a clear indication of that. (save Rickon) |
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Post by Leo of Red Keep on Jul 12, 2017 18:37:13 GMT
Joffrey lacked his real father, who he didn't know was his real father. He had a father. Whether Robert Baratheon spent any time with him or how much isn't made clear, but what is made clear is highborn always have many different people to whom the parents turn for teaching things-archery, seeing, sword fighting, etc. Joffrey no doubt had access to any number of them. He was a little monster because he was never disciplined, and that falls squarely on Cersei. By the time she knew how bad he was it was way too late. The Starks did a much better job of raising well rounded kids even if they lacked in some areas, but the fact that the kids are all decent speaks to upbringing. Cersei seemed to do a great job with Myrcella and Tommen but they suffered from the same thing the rest of the Statk children did save Robb, as well as most if not all other children in every house, which is the whole all-in-one thing I mentioned before. It actually doesn't make much sense, each house should have taught all their children the same considering the high death rate they had in those days. It would make much more sense to make sure every child knew as much as they could in the tragic event not all of them made it to adulthood or not far past. They did show Arya and Sansa doing sewing, and Bran (and I think Rickon, I don't remember) doing archery so the Starks didn't entirely neglect their younger children in favor of Robb, but nothing was ever shown being done with the Lannister children. I don't know if that was deliberate for the inference that Joffrey was raised a spoiled brat that was never told no and turned into a murdering psycho because of it, or a bona fide oversight. Either way, the Starks raised 5 fairly well-rounded kids and the Lannisters were only 2 out of 3. I don't say Cersei didn't love her kids, she clearly did, but intelligence alone wasn't going to save Joffrey from his fate. The Starks seemed to plan for their children's future more and invested time and energy in making sure they had a wealth of activities to engage them and their survival up to this point is a clear indication of that. (save Rickon) Joffrey lacked a present, active father. "l should have spent more time with you, shown you how to be a man." That's what Robert told him on his death bed and it's all the evidence we have in the show. There is no reason to blame Cersei for lack of discipline and not Robert. Access to masters of all sorts are nothing if no one pushes or encourages. Mothers are not usually the kind who do this, more likely to be protective instead, if not dismissive (remember Lady Olenna saying her grandson was only good at knocking others off with a stick?). We saw Cersei show just that sort of protective fear when she discussed the matter with Tyrion before the Backwater battle. I'll repeat what I wrote before: the younger children, Myrcella, Tommen, Bran and Rickon saw their education cut short by the events. The Starks weren't told anything about the world. They all went into it as fools. Fighting, reading, sewing fools. Joffrey at least had some understanding of things. There is no explanation for Joffrey's character. We can speculate as much as we like. People who dislike Cersei blame her for all of it. They're idiots. |
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Post by Aj_June on Jul 12, 2017 20:36:55 GMT
Just as Lannisters are known for intelligence and manipulative skills but are not weak either, Starks are known for bravery, honour and caring about their people but are not foolish either. They have ruled the north for virtually the entire time in spite of facing Boltons and other northerners. Their history is no way any less than Lannister history and in fact more legendary. When we are talking about "seed" we do have to see their entire history and expected future and not just worst time of Starks. I have my doubts about this last statement. Actually I'm going to contradict it. The Starks were a strong house of course, just like the Lannisters. Both had their ups and downs, their qualities making and keeping them what they were. This is indisputable, for all to see. I cannot help seeing the Stark family as the massive failure of parents to educate their children. Interesting. But the real Lannister - Lord Tywin Lannister considered Cersei such a bad parent that he wanted to take hold of Joffrey and marry cersei away. The "present" is that Lannisters have lost their seeds. The strong seed of Starks managed to stay alive in spite of all the problems they faced. If you only want to include main story line of GOT then you can't argue Tommen was a strong seed. Joffrey was cruel but not intelligent. |
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Post by Ad○rably Obn○xi○us🐢 on Jul 12, 2017 21:20:57 GMT
Joffrey lacked his real father, who he didn't know was his real father. He had a father. Whether Robert Baratheon spent any time with him or how much isn't made clear, but what is made clear is highborn always have many different people to whom the parents turn for teaching things-archery, seeing, sword fighting, etc. Joffrey no doubt had access to any number of them. He was a little monster because he was never disciplined, and that falls squarely on Cersei. By the time she knew how bad he was it was way too late. The Starks did a much better job of raising well rounded kids even if they lacked in some areas, but the fact that the kids are all decent speaks to upbringing. Cersei seemed to do a great job with Myrcella and Tommen but they suffered from the same thing the rest of the Statk children did save Robb, as well as most if not all other children in every house, which is the whole all-in-one thing I mentioned before. It actually doesn't make much sense, each house should have taught all their children the same considering the high death rate they had in those days. It would make much more sense to make sure every child knew as much as they could in the tragic event not all of them made it to adulthood or not far past. They did show Arya and Sansa doing sewing, and Bran (and I think Rickon, I don't remember) doing archery so the Starks didn't entirely neglect their younger children in favor of Robb, but nothing was ever shown being done with the Lannister children. I don't know if that was deliberate for the inference that Joffrey was raised a spoiled brat that was never told no and turned into a murdering psycho because of it, or a bona fide oversight. Either way, the Starks raised 5 fairly well-rounded kids and the Lannisters were only 2 out of 3. I don't say Cersei didn't love her kids, she clearly did, but intelligence alone wasn't going to save Joffrey from his fate. The Starks seemed to plan for their children's future more and invested time and energy in making sure they had a wealth of activities to engage them and their survival up to this point is a clear indication of that. (save Rickon) Joffrey lacked a present, active father. "l should have spent more time with you, shown you how to be a man." That's what Robert told him on his death bed and it's all the evidence we have in the show. There is no reason to blame Cersei for lack of discipline and not Robert. Access to masters of all sorts are nothing if no one pushes or encourages. Mothers are not usually the kind who do this, more likely to be protective instead, if not dismissive (remember Lady Olenna saying her grandson was only good at knocking others off with a stick?). We saw Cersei show just that sort of protective fear when she discussed the matter with Tyrion before the Backwater battle. I'll repeat what I wrote before: the younger children, Myrcella, Tommen, Bran and Rickon saw their education cut short by the events. The Starks weren't told anything about the world. They all went into it as fools. Fighting, reading, sewing fools. Joffrey at least had some understanding of things. There is no explanation for Joffrey's character. We can speculate as much as we like. People who dislike Cersei blame her for all of it. They're idiots. I disagree with the mothering. It is the mother's job to not only be protective, but also discipline. You can't have it both ways, either Cersei was a hands-on mother or she left the children to be raised by others. If she was hands-on, which I believe she was simply by virtue of how much she loved them, then she would be the one to discipline. And she didn't. If she wasn't leaving anyone else to teach her children anything, which we didn't see happening, then she was the one solely responsible for Joffrey not receiving the discipline he should have been getting that might have prevented him turning into a murderous monster. This is regardless of whether or not Robert was there or not. If she was the same lax kind of parent with Myrcella and Tommen, then she got lucky in that they didn't need a strong hand to keep them in line. Joffrey clearly did need it and did not receive it. But he was also firstborn, and parents, while not ever learning everything there is to know about parenting no matter how many kids they have, tend to make most of their mistakes with their first. He just turned out particularly horrible, but the degree might have been somewhat mitigated by a strong sense of instilled self-discipline as well as some way to channel those urges. He just didn't get the guidance he needed. Perhaps the Starks were lucky genetically in that they weren't dealt a child like Joffrey. I do not feel, however, that intelligence in and of itself has much if anything to do with any of this, nor do I feel the Lannisters are any more or less intelligent as a whole than the Starks. The Starks felt many things were just as important as intelligence and wanted to make sure their offspring had a wide variety of other personality traits to pull from when confronted with problems, as opposed to simply being manipulative and conniving, which to be fair requires intelligence. |
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Post by Leo of Red Keep on Jul 13, 2017 5:50:34 GMT
Interesting. But the real Lannister - Lord Tywin Lannister considered Cersei such a bad parent that he wanted to take hold of Joffrey and marry cersei away. … Joffrey was cruel but not intelligent. Cersei wasn't able to control Joffrey and Tywin likely felt she was not severe enough with him. A typical characteristic in a mother whose love stands in the way of discipline. We saw her reason with him, giving good advice and he did take some of it, but she would not have been willing to force him to do anything. I think Joffrey was intelligent enough and certainly more than Jon (yes, well, that's not much of a feat, is it?). His wish for a central army was right on point in S1E03, only not possible in the present situation. He was still in the process of learning how things worked and what he naively proposed was very much what Henry VII did and what brought the Wars of the Roses to an end. Remove the insecurity issues and Joffrey could have been a competent king. |
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Post by Leo of Red Keep on Jul 13, 2017 6:24:04 GMT
Joffrey lacked a present, active father. "l should have spent more time with you, shown you how to be a man." That's what Robert told him on his death bed and it's all the evidence we have in the show. There is no reason to blame Cersei for lack of discipline and not Robert. Access to masters of all sorts are nothing if no one pushes or encourages. Mothers are not usually the kind who do this, more likely to be protective instead, if not dismissive (remember Lady Olenna saying her grandson was only good at knocking others off with a stick?). We saw Cersei show just that sort of protective fear when she discussed the matter with Tyrion before the Backwater battle. I'll repeat what I wrote before: the younger children, Myrcella, Tommen, Bran and Rickon saw their education cut short by the events. The Starks weren't told anything about the world. They all went into it as fools. Fighting, reading, sewing fools. Joffrey at least had some understanding of things. There is no explanation for Joffrey's character. We can speculate as much as we like. People who dislike Cersei blame her for all of it. They're idiots. I disagree with the mothering. It is the mother's job to not only be protective, but also discipline. You can't have it both ways, either Cersei was a hands-on mother or she left the children to be raised by others. If she was hands-on, which I believe she was simply by virtue of how much she loved them, then she would be the one to discipline. And she didn't. If she wasn't leaving anyone else to teach her children anything, which we didn't see happening, then she was the one solely responsible for Joffrey not receiving the discipline he should have been getting that might have prevented him turning into a murderous monster. This is regardless of whether or not Robert was there or not. If she was the same lax kind of parent with Myrcella and Tommen, then she got lucky in that they didn't need a strong hand to keep them in line. Joffrey clearly did need it and did not receive it. But he was also firstborn, and parents, while not ever learning everything there is to know about parenting no matter how many kids they have, tend to make most of their mistakes with their first. He just turned out particularly horrible, but the degree might have been somewhat mitigated by a strong sense of instilled self-discipline as well as some way to channel those urges. He just didn't get the guidance he needed. Perhaps the Starks were lucky genetically in that they weren't dealt a child like Joffrey. I do not feel, however, that intelligence in and of itself has much if anything to do with any of this, nor do I feel the Lannisters are any more or less intelligent as a whole than the Starks. The Starks felt many things were just as important as intelligence and wanted to make sure their offspring had a wide variety of other personality traits to pull from when confronted with problems, as opposed to simply being manipulative and conniving, which to be fair requires intelligence. The show doesn't tell if or how Joffrey came to lack discipline. We saw Cersei complain that Joffrey was not listening to her, explicitly to Tyrion, implicitly to Tywin. She said he was always difficult, then Myrcella was different, so it was not only a matter of learning parenting. When she discusses it with Tyrion, he admits it's hard to discipline someone after he's been made king. Both put the blame on the incest, thinking they've been dealt a problem rather than created one. This is what the show tells us about Joffrey's nature, not putting Cersei's skills into question. Knowing Tyrion, you'd think he would voice his opinion of it if he had one. The show tells us, however, that Robert felt he had failed to play his part. "I should have spent more time with you, taught you how to be a man". It implies Joffrey wasn't taught to fight or hunt and this explains some of his behaviour. The boy who wants to show the crowd his reign will not be that of "the soft hearts of women" has a need to compensate that missing sense of being what he's never learned to be. Killing animals with a crossbow is the same thing. He wouldn't need that if he had learned to be a decent fighter. It seems Joffrey was left to the women because his father simply didn't care enough, just like he didn't bother attending his own Small Council. The Lannisters have a culture of intelligence. They all have a developed view of the world and people. In his first scene, Tywin tells Jaime to "say something clever", and keeps explaining to his children how things work. He likes Arya because he finds her smart. Cersei will do the same with Sansa and Jaime likes to dive into philosophical monologues. He shot Catelyn down in one sentence about her gods. They're all questioning, realists trying to make sense of things. The Starks, on the other side, are idealists trying to live up to principles in hope that those who survive will outweigh the rest of the world. |
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Post by Leo of Red Keep on Jul 13, 2017 8:04:34 GMT
You can't have it both ways, either Cersei was a hands-on mother or she left the children to be raised by others. If she was hands-on, which I believe she was simply by virtue of how much she loved them, then she would be the one to discipline. And she didn't. If she wasn't leaving anyone else to teach her children anything, which we didn't see happening, then she was the one solely responsible for Joffrey not receiving the discipline he should have been getting that might have prevented him turning into a murderous monster. This is regardless of whether or not Robert was there or not. As an aside, let me explain how I analyse the show, or any other story for that matter. This being a fictional story, it lives only from what we are being told and not from any other plausible explanations. No interpretation is valid unless we are somehow being directed to it by action, statements or hints. In other words, I am only putting together the 2 and 2 we are given, not those that could also be. At least it is how I try to build up my analysis; I make no claim at being flawless at it (I have not always been). Joffrey's exposure to discipline would be a valid discussion in a real life situation, one in which there is no author consciously presenting us with a carefully selected amount of information. In our fictional case, however, the absence of the subject in the story makes it an invalid explanation. We cannot decide discipline was part of Joffrey's problem when no one in the show ever talks about it or we never see it brought up in the action. I put weight in something Robert said and not in something we only feel could have been, like Cersei being a hands-on mother or neglecting her children. Another example of this: I used to say the Sons of the Harpy were former guards or private soldiers made jobless by the overnight abolition of slavery. I would also say it is obvious that Meereen, as all societies, was politically divided and there must have been a set of 2nd rank families eager to take advantage of the new situation by siding with the conqueror while the top families were those supporting sedition and all forms of reactionary movements. While this all makes perfect sense, the show never hints at it. All we ever get is that Hizdahr's father once spoke against a decision. These interpretations were therefore not valid because nothing ever led us to them. |
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