pk9
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Post by pk9 on Jul 19, 2017 23:17:01 GMT
Last season I think all of the R+L=J'ers were too busy celebrating the confirmation of the theory to really consider the implications of Bran being the one to discover this information. Everyone simply thought "great, Jon Targaryen may have a legitimate claim on the Iron Throne now". And of course it made sense that it would be Bran to discover this because he's the 3ER and everyone wanted to see the TOJ scene and only Ned or the 3ER could justify a flashback.
But now that Bran has returned to Westeros, I'm beginning to wonder what his next step could be. Bran is the rightful head of House Stark, and although he may be willing to relinquish that claim to a half brother who is Ned Stark's son (as Sansa did), would the knowledge that Jon is actually a Targaryen change this? Even if he doesn't contest Jon being Lord of Winterfell, could this cause Sansa to do so, especially after the friction that has started to develop in episode 1?
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Post by Aj_June on Jul 19, 2017 23:33:08 GMT
Last season I think all of the R+L=J'ers were too busy celebrating the confirmation of the theory to really consider the implications of Bran being the one to discover this information. Everyone simply thought "great, Jon Targaryen may have a legitimate claim on the Iron Throne now". And of course it made sense that it would be Bran to discover this because he's the 3ER and everyone wanted to see the TOJ scene and only Ned or the 3ER could justify a flashback. But now that Bran has returned to Westeros, I'm beginning to wonder what his next step could be. Bran is the rightful head of House Stark, and although he may be willing to relinquish that claim to a half brother who is Ned Stark's son (as Sansa did), would the knowledge that Jon is actually a Targaryen change this? Even if he doesn't contest Jon being Lord of Winterfell, could this cause Sansa to do so, especially after the friction that has started to develop in episode 1? It's difficult to read Sansa at the moment. Littlefinger may try to manipulate her once again but it seems she trusts none. But I think we should also remember that Arya is also in the picture now and will definitely lend support to Jon and that could be decisive. Bran is the three-eyed raven now so he is probably the most mature person and would definitely advocate for what is best for humanity. Also, we should not forget that even if Jon is Targaryen, many northerners would also acknowledge his half wolf bloodline. I don't really see any significant chance of rebellion against him though there is a possibility that Sansa will do something stupid.
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Post by CoolJGS☺ on Jul 20, 2017 0:27:20 GMT
I don't think Bran would care.
I think Sansa is more interested being respected than ruling Winterfell since she willingly gave that up for Jon.
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pk9
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Post by pk9 on Jul 20, 2017 6:33:30 GMT
But "there must always be a Stark in Winterfell". Sansa reasoned that by virtue of being Ned's son Jon was basically a Stark, but change the parentage could be significant.
As for his "half-wolf bloodline", remember the narrative that the Northerners believe is that Rhaegar kidnapped and raped Lyanna, so having Jon be the result of that act would be problematic.
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Post by Aj_June on Jul 20, 2017 7:46:51 GMT
But "there must always be a Stark in Winterfell". Sansa reasoned that by virtue of being Ned's son Jon was basically a Stark, but change the parentage could be significant. As for his "half-wolf bloodline", remember the narrative that the Northerners believe is that Rhaegar kidnapped and raped Lyanna, so having Jon be the result of that act would be problematic. But the important factor that changes the equation is that Bran is going to return. So Sansa has no legal inheritance right now. So when the rightful Stark (Bran) will himself side by Jon (we can assume this) then how much problems Jon will face from northerners? And Bran might disclose a story that we still don't know or he may not disclose it at all. Not to forget it can also be assumed that Arya will side with Jon too. I do agree with you that Sansa could create some trouble but given that the show will finish in just 12 more episodes and there is this army of dead invasion to play out there won't probably be time to create a power conflict situation in north.
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Post by CoolJGS☺ on Jul 20, 2017 11:05:32 GMT
But "there must always be a Stark in Winterfell". Sansa reasoned that by virtue of being Ned's son Jon was basically a Stark, but change the parentage could be significant. As for his "half-wolf bloodline", remember the narrative that the Northerners believe is that Rhaegar kidnapped and raped Lyanna, so having Jon be the result of that act would be problematic. But the important factor that changes the equation is that Bran is going to return. So Sansa has no legal inheritance right now. So when the rightful Stark (Bran) will himself side by Jon (we can assume this) then how much problems Jon will face from northerners? And Bran might disclose a story that we still don't know or he may not disclose it at all. Not to forget it can also be assumed that Arya will side with Jon too. I do agree with you that Sansa could create some trouble but given that the show will finish in just 12 more episodes and there is this army of dead invasion to play out there won't probably be time to create a power conflict situation in north. We don;t really know what kind of inheritance Sansa has though. She was a legitimate heir and it's just a matter of figuring out if women could lead in Winterfell. she was supposed to marry Joffrey, but that fell through. Jon will always be a bastard, so her legal claim automatically trumps his no matter who he's the bastard son of. It's just that she willingly acquiesced to him based on his ability to persuade others that he's great (I'm not sure he's that great, but he has the charisma to pull it off). Anyway, the North, like most of the other Houses, have moved beyond legal inheritance rights.
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Post by Aj_June on Jul 20, 2017 11:17:51 GMT
But the important factor that changes the equation is that Bran is going to return. So Sansa has no legal inheritance right now. So when the rightful Stark (Bran) will himself side by Jon (we can assume this) then how much problems Jon will face from northerners? And Bran might disclose a story that we still don't know or he may not disclose it at all. Not to forget it can also be assumed that Arya will side with Jon too. I do agree with you that Sansa could create some trouble but given that the show will finish in just 12 more episodes and there is this army of dead invasion to play out there won't probably be time to create a power conflict situation in north. We don;t really know what kind of inheritance Sansa has though. She was a legitimate heir and it's just a matter of figuring out if women could lead in Winterfell. she was supposed to marry Joffrey, but that fell through. Jon will always be a bastard, so her legal claim automatically trumps his no matter who he's the bastard son of. It's just that she willingly acquiesced to him based on his ability to persuade others that he's great (I'm not sure he's that great, but he has the charisma to pull it off). Anyway, the North, like most of the other Houses, have moved beyond legal inheritance rights. I will like to remind you of the book part in which Robb Stark, the King of the North, wanted to make Jon his heir. Here Smithy, Chapter 45, A Storm of Swords I don't remember if Robb made a will but he certainly wanted JON to be the king of the North. So would Bran. Remember that now that Bran has come back she is no more the first heir for King of Winter in anyway.
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Post by CoolJGS☺ on Jul 21, 2017 0:17:04 GMT
We don;t really know what kind of inheritance Sansa has though. She was a legitimate heir and it's just a matter of figuring out if women could lead in Winterfell. she was supposed to marry Joffrey, but that fell through. Jon will always be a bastard, so her legal claim automatically trumps his no matter who he's the bastard son of. It's just that she willingly acquiesced to him based on his ability to persuade others that he's great (I'm not sure he's that great, but he has the charisma to pull it off). Anyway, the North, like most of the other Houses, have moved beyond legal inheritance rights. I will like to remind you of the book part in which Robb Stark, the King of the North, wanted to make Jon his heir. Here Smithy, Chapter 45, A Storm of Swords I don't remember if Robb made a will but he certainly wanted JON to be the king of the North. So would Bran. Remember that now that Bran has come back she is no more the first heir for King of Winter in anyway. I know what Robb wanted, it just didn't matter in relation to what was the norm as well as the fact that the norm is being obliterated in the show. Also, just because bran is back in no way means he even has an intention on wanting the title. Why would he? That said, context is key (it's noice to say this outside of the Religion board for once...) Yes, Robb wanted Jon but it's also important to know what his options were: Bran & Rickon were presumed dead Arywa is presumed a hostage and likely either would be killed or marry a Lannister or Lannister ally. Sansa is married to Tyrion His only option would be Jon. I'm not interested in creating fictional what ifs necessarily, so i don't want to guess what Bran is thinking since what we do know is that Sansa willingly gave up her shot to be Queen of the North although she is not only the primary, but the ONLY reason Jon survived to be in the position he's in. That makes her qualified to lead even if the North is too sexist to accept it.
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pk9
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@pk9
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Post by pk9 on Jul 21, 2017 0:53:19 GMT
I think it should be noted that Sansa never had the title of being the head of House Stark. The Starks were basically wiped out by the Boltons, and then upon reclaiming Winterfell, both she and Jon were in a position to make a claim. She gave it to Jon.
Bran, on the other hand, was acting Lord of Winterfell already in the absence of Ned and Robb. He held court and tried to make decisions that were in the best interests of their vassals. Ultimately he yielded the castle to Theon because he thought that would protect his people. But upon returning to a Stark-controlled Winterfell, why wouldn't he assume he would be Lord? Unless being the 3ER is something that excludes him from Lordship?
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Post by CoolJGS☺ on Jul 21, 2017 2:57:22 GMT
I think it should be noted that Sansa never had the title of being the head of House Stark. The Starks were basically wiped out by the Boltons, and then upon reclaiming Winterfell, both she and Jon were in a position to make a claim. She gave it to Jon. Bran, on the other hand, was acting Lord of Winterfell already in the absence of Ned and Robb. He held court and tried to make decisions that were in the best interests of their vassals. Ultimately he yielded the castle to Theon because he thought that would protect his people. But upon returning to a Stark-controlled Winterfell, why wouldn't he assume he would be Lord? Unless being the 3ER is something that excludes him from Lordship? My point is why would Bran want to be Lord of Winterfell when he is so much more now? This is the genius of the show and books- They continually make people think of things that aren't too terribly important. They mix the mundane and ordinary of society with the fantastical and the mundane still wins out every time despite the very clear possibility that most of humankind will fall and a new society will rise from it just like it did at least a few times before. So we tend to care more about who will rule on what throne more than the notion of a bunch of snow zombies coming to kill everyone. Bran, more than anyone, knows what's coming and is tasked with how to defeat it in a particular way that Jon is not privy to. Not knowing what Bran will do, but it makes little sense to me to think Bran is going to concern himself with ruling Winterfell before, during, or after the whitewalkers coming to town. In any event, assuming Bran isn't interested, Jon would not take precedent over Sansa if not for democracy taking root in the North which of course would mean the men would win out.
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Post by Aj_June on Jul 21, 2017 7:55:55 GMT
I think it should be noted that Sansa never had the title of being the head of House Stark. The Starks were basically wiped out by the Boltons, and then upon reclaiming Winterfell, both she and Jon were in a position to make a claim. She gave it to Jon. Bran, on the other hand, was acting Lord of Winterfell already in the absence of Ned and Robb. He held court and tried to make decisions that were in the best interests of their vassals. Ultimately he yielded the castle to Theon because he thought that would protect his people. But upon returning to a Stark-controlled Winterfell, why wouldn't he assume he would be Lord? Unless being the 3ER is something that excludes him from Lordship? My point is why would Bran want to be Lord of Winterfell when he is so much more now? And that is something with which all of us on this topic readily agree. - In S07e01 Bran says to Dolorous Edd that "you were at the fist of first men and at hardhome." Clearly Bran was not in those places so it means Bran knows things which he hasn't seen. That means he is a very powerful greenseer. We know such people don't take positions such as "king" so Bran is not going to be the king. But we can make easy predictions that Bran perceives Jon as one of the key player in the fight against the army of dead and the night king. That was one of the reasons why TOJ scene was one of the most important part of last season. So Bran will definitely see Jon as the person who would unite humanity. Sansa doesn't even comes in picture.
- If Bran reveals Jon's parentage then in fact there is a substantial chance that some southern Lords and Targaryen loyalists will pledge their support for JON. In such a situation Jon might even eventually become the ruler of Iron throne and 7 kingdoms. According to law, throne passes to elder son's son before daughter and that gives Jon a better claim than Dany. Of course there is this issue that Lyanna was not the wife of Rhaegar. But we don't know the whole story here.
- In any case, there are just 12 episodes left with so many different plots to cover. I don't think there is any substantial objections coming from northerners against Jon. In fact return of Bran and Arya takes away a lot of potential threat by Sansa.
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Post by CoolJGS☺ on Jul 21, 2017 10:59:03 GMT
My point is why would Bran want to be Lord of Winterfell when he is so much more now? And that is something with which all of us on this topic readily agree. - In S07e01 Bran says to Dolorous Edd that "you were at the fist of first men and at hardhome." Clearly Bran was not in those places so it means Bran knows things which he hasn't seen. That means he is a very powerful greenseer. We know such people don't take positions such as "king" so Bran is not going to be the king. But we can make easy predictions that Bran perceives Jon as one of the key player in the fight against the army of dead and the night king. That was one of the reasons why TOJ scene was one of the most important part of last season. So Bran will definitely see Jon as the person who would unite humanity. Sansa doesn't even comes in picture.
- If Bran reveals Jon's parentage then in fact there is a substantial chance that some southern Lords and Targaryen loyalists will pledge their support for JON. In such a situation Jon might even eventually become the ruler of Iron throne and 7 kingdoms. According to law, throne passes to elder son's son before daughter and that gives Jon a better claim than Dany. Of course there is this issue that Lyanna was not the wife of Rhaegar. But we don't know the whole story here.
- In any case, there are just 12 episodes left with so many different plots to cover. I don't think there is any substantial objections coming from northerners against Jon. In fact return of Bran and Arya takes away a lot of potential threat by Sansa.
I'm not sure why Bran finding out Jon is his cousin rather than brother would make him leap to the notion that he can unite the world. As I've said repeatedly, I absolutely despise the whole R+J=L stuff, so of course it's entirely possible that the outcome of Jon being this superhuman King Arthur clone and everything you say is true and foreknown by the fans. I'm going to hold out hope that there is a better story there...Although it's looking doubtful. I can;t figure out why on Earth any targaryen loyalist would turn from Dany, who they have been waiting for to cross the sea, to Jon. I'm also not sure why you continue to paint Sansa as something of a villain. What exactly has she done that makes you think she's even a threat to Jon? Of course, she could turn into Dark Sansa, but right now the only reason she is considered an enemy is because she gave the right response concerning what to do with the houses who were directly involved with trying to wipe out the Starks.
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Post by Aj_June on Jul 21, 2017 12:05:41 GMT
I'm not sure why Bran finding out Jon is his cousin rather than brother would make him leap to the notion that he can unite the world. As I've said repeatedly, I absolutely despise the whole R+J=L stuff, so of course it's entirely possible that the outcome of Jon being this superhuman King Arthur clone and everything you say is true and foreknown by the fans. I'm going to hold out hope that there is a better story there...Although it's looking doubtful. I can;t figure out why on Earth any targaryen loyalist would turn from Dany, who they have been waiting for to cross the sea, to Jon. I'm also not sure why you continue to paint Sansa as something of a villain. What exactly has she done that makes you think she's even a threat to Jon? Of course, she could turn into Dark Sansa, but right now the only reason she is considered an enemy is because she gave the right response concerning what to do with the houses who were directly involved with trying to wipe out the Starks. Bran will see Jon as the hero who will unite the humanity against Night King not because he found out that Jon is his cousin but because of different reasons which I will explain below. I make assumption that Jon is the one who will unite the humanity because it is pretty much what the show has shown us till now. He is the one who let the wildlings south of the wall for a reason and we know what was that reason. He has been the one (except for Meera-Bran and King Stannis-Red woman) who has shown any consideration for what humanity is up to against the Night King. He did as much as send Samwell Tarly to the Citadel to find solution for the same problem. Sansa often shrugs off the whole invasion from north thing by making statements such as you "don't know Cersei" in response to Jon's claim that he has seen what the army of the dead looks like. Don't you think Bran will see Jon as the special person in this situation? Bran's whole purpose has now become saving humanity. I am not trying to paint Sansa as a villain but I am simply saying that just because northerners will find out Jon is not the son of Lord Eddard does not mean Sansa will come into any realistic consideration for being the ruler of the North. Return of Bran completely ends the chances of Sansa and in fact bolsters the position of Jon to be claimant for Iron Throne. Also, I am not trying to claim that Sansa is an outright threat to Jon but replying in context of the OP who said that "Even if he doesn't contest Jon being Lord of Winterfell, could this cause Sansa to do so, especially after the friction that has started to develop in episode 1?" Back to why some Targaryen loyalists and southern lords might support Jon over Dany? One reason for that is that Rhaegar was far more loved than the mad king. Another reason is that Dany's army consists of Dothraki which might put off southern lords. yes, Jon's army consists of wildlings but he has already shown that he has a great control over them. Another reason is conditional. If Rhaegar had married Lyanna then Jon simply has a better claim to inheritance than Dany. Finally, Jon is a better human being than Dany and it is soon going to be the time of crisis.
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Post by CoolJGS☺ on Jul 21, 2017 14:26:24 GMT
I don't think Sansa shrugs off the invasion except from the sense that she hasn't seen what their up against.
Jon is doing exactly what she is doing in shrugging off the other houses in the hopes of uniting everyone. Sansa already knows that doesn't work in practice which is exactly why Jon was about to die if not for the Vale showing up to their rescue. Again, there is nothing Jon has done or said in relation to the Umbers or Karstarks that would suggest they have any reason to pledge fealty to him and stick to it. They may well do it for the sake of the story, but that doesn't necessarily make the story better just to prove Jon is right.
Sansa is simply saying a very correct thing- Do not underestimate your enemies just because you want to focus on one enemy since she knows that what got her father and brother killed and would have gotten Jon killed.
I think the story meshed better when it was about how men have definitions on heroes for the dumbest of reasons (For example, what exactly did Jon do in his battle with the Boltons beyond survival?), but you are probably right that it will likely be all about Jon because that's what most fantasy novels turn into which is why most fantasy stories are boring and predictable.
I don't believe Sansa will come into realistic consideration either because she doesn't have anyone rallying to her. That doesn't mean the reasons she isn't considered are valid. They are based on traditions that are, again, warped by what men think make the best leaders. Honestly, she's better off with Littlefinger because she & him realize all the dangers they face. Of course, if she goes with Littlefinger, Jon loses that army and in that sense, Sansa may undermine Jon. However, it's because of the even bigger picture. Sansa is related to three Houses that can stave off attack from the South.
She doesn't have the benefit of understanding fan theory & Jon's place in it.
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Post by Ad○rably Obn○xi○us🐢 on Jul 21, 2017 17:08:44 GMT
I don't think Sansa shrugs off the invasion except from the sense that she hasn't seen what their up against. Jon is doing exactly what she is doing in shrugging off the other houses in the hopes of uniting everyone. Sansa already knows that doesn't work in practice which is exactly why Jon was about to die if not for the Vale showing up to their rescue. Again, there is nothing Jon has done or said in relation to the Umbers or Karstarks that would suggest they have any reason to pledge fealty to him and stick to it. They may well do it for the sake of the story, but that doesn't necessarily make the story better just to prove Jon is right. Sansa is simply saying a very correct thing- Do not underestimate your enemies just because you want to focus on one enemy since she knows that what got her father and brother killed and would have gotten Jon killed. I think the story meshed better when it was about how men have definitions on heroes for the dumbest of reasons (For example, what exactly did Jon do in his battle with the Boltons beyond survival?), but you are probably right that it will likely be all about Jon because that's what most fantasy novels turn into which is why most fantasy stories are boring and predictable. I don't believe Sansa will come into realistic consideration either because she doesn't have anyone rallying to her. That doesn't mean the reasons she isn't considered are valid. They are based on traditions that are, again, warped by what men think make the best leaders. Honestly, she's better off with Littlefinger because she & him realize all the dangers they face. Of course, if she goes with Littlefinger, Jon loses that army and in that sense, Sansa may undermine Jon. However, it's because of the even bigger picture. Sansa is related to three Houses that can stave off attack from the South. She doesn't have the benefit of understanding fan theory & Jon's place in it. She and Littlefinger are thinking smalltime. Jon knows all about enemies and being stabbed in the back (no pun intended). He can't worry about that now, there is an urgency to unite everyone against a group that has zero interest in a throne or revenge or manipulation or marrying to create stronger bonds...someone who would kill them all. I imagine Jon figures they can get that all sorted out once they've defeated the WW but absolutely nothing else matters if they don't all unite and fight them first, and there are still so many that either underestimate or have no real concept of what they are/what they do (like Sansa) or just flat out don't even believe they exist. What Jon needs is proof of their existence and how dangerous they are to everyone living being, regardless of what house they belong to or who they've wronged or backed or married or had kids with or land they've owned or books they've read or skills they've learned...the WW care about NONE[/b] of that. Jon is right, they should be #1 priority and Sansa is just fucking that up. A land of humans divided will fall very quickly to the WW, who can now move where they want because...winter is here.
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Post by DSDSquared on Jul 21, 2017 17:09:29 GMT
I never understood how anyone can think Sansa made the right choice. She didn't. Jon did. Jon know that every man, woman, and child has to fight in order to even stand a chance against the Night King. He knows that someone like Cersei is nothing compared to him. Sansa is naïve and does not know this. She even ridicules Jon about not paying attention to Cersei. Jon knows she does not matter. Jon knows that wiping out two entire northern families and taking their castles when winter is coming is a terrible idea. They need all of the support they can get. This is the same reason he allied with the Wildlings. Now they are his strongest allies.
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Post by CoolJGS☺ on Jul 21, 2017 17:52:18 GMT
I never understood how anyone can think Sansa made the right choice. She didn't. Jon did. Jon know that every man, woman, and child has to fight in order to even stand a chance against the Night King. He knows that someone like Cersei is nothing compared to him. Sansa is naïve and does not know this. She even ridicules Jon about not paying attention to Cersei. Jon knows she does not matter. Jon knows that wiping out two entire northern families and taking their castles when winter is coming is a terrible idea. They need all of the support they can get. This is the same reason he allied with the Wildlings. Now they are his strongest allies. No he didn't.
Of course, they didn't have to strip anyone of their lands or kill everybody, but the notion that two groups who were directly responsible for deaths in your family and wanted your family exterminated completely could be trusted unconditionally is beyond retarded.
They should have been conscripted to the Wall until the danger was over.
Jon needs to pay attention to Cersei as well as the walkers. That's all Sansa was saying and it's silly to pretend after all these years and examples that it's a good idea to put the Lannisters on a backburner. The enemies of the North are not after Jon as if they are waiting in line for him.
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Post by DSDSquared on Jul 21, 2017 18:23:08 GMT
None of that matters anymore. When winter comes and the Night King's army is at the wall, tiny fights between Lannisters, Starks, Umbers, Greyjoys, Karstarks, etc. do not matter. Jon made more allies and has a much larger army now. He made the right choice.
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Post by CoolJGS☺ on Jul 21, 2017 18:34:12 GMT
Ad○rably Obn○xi○us🐢Littlefinger is irrelevant since he will do what Sansa tells him, but Sansa is not thinking smalltime. On the contrary, she is the only one figuring out just how many enemies they have to face and the reality that there are instances when you cannot trust everyone such as in the case of Karstarks & Umbers. Besides, I get tired of this notion that Jon is stoic in the danger the whitewalkers are. This is the guy that, in spite of a correct warning from Sansa, rushed out to on pure emotion to rescue his doomed brother when he should have focused on a way to defeat Ramsey with as few casualties as possible and without a rushed battle plan. That's the point. It doesn't matter what he wants as much as what is. He can't wave a magic wand and have all loyal subjects. I'm not saying although people will likely ignore this part that Jon should not make the walkers his #1 priority anymore than Sansa is telling him that (Cersei came up based on a raven from her, not Sansa. Sansa was simply educating him on what kind of person she is). That doesn't mean you ignore other things as if they aren't priorities either. He betting on luck that he has enough time to handle walkers, ignore Cersei, then round up enough remaining troops for battle with her and that's stupid.
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Post by CoolJGS☺ on Jul 21, 2017 18:35:35 GMT
None of that matters anymore. When winter comes and the Night King's army is at the wall, tiny fights between Lannisters, Starks, Umbers, Greyjoys, Karstarks, etc. do not matter. Jon made more allies and has a much larger army now. He made the right choice. I've said all I can say on this matter regarding how wrong this version of events is.
The story may turn out the way you want it, but it will suck is all.
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