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Post by thorshairspray on Jul 19, 2017 23:32:00 GMT
Since you raised this in the other thread I figured we could discuss it here. Specifically Male Privilege and the reasons I reject the concept, if you like?
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Post by cupcakes on Jul 20, 2017 0:26:14 GMT
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Post by theoncomingstorm on Jul 20, 2017 4:40:14 GMT
Jimbo is like Negan. We're all Jimbo. |
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Post by cupcakes on Jul 20, 2017 4:53:10 GMT
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Post by Eva Yojimbo on Jul 20, 2017 5:23:04 GMT
Since you raised this in the other thread I figured we could discuss it here. Specifically Male Privilege and the reasons I reject the concept, if you like? Sure thing, though I was mostly interested in your rejection of it in light of saying Fresh Prince was one of your favorite shows when they almost explicitly dealt with the concept in the episode I mentioned. I'm probably not the best person to discuss the concept on a general level (there are others far more knowledgeable about such social issues than myself). |
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Post by phludowin on Jul 20, 2017 7:43:43 GMT
A former tennis player who won Wimbledon in 1974 and 1982. |
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Post by scienceisgod on Jul 20, 2017 8:44:57 GMT
It seems like every example of white privlidge serves to undermine any notion of male privlidge. For example, whites get lesser prison sentences than blacks, but females get even more lesser sentences than males. Don't even mention Jews, because the world's wealthiest demographic by far is somehow seen as a victim group.
The takeaway is that the Left hates poor people and will do anything to distract from class privlidge.
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Post by Vegas on Jul 20, 2017 12:24:43 GMT
whites get lesser prison sentences than blacks I wish that people would stop telling me that this is some how a privilege of mine. No it's not... or, at the very least, one that I don't benefit from.... as I do not plan to embark on a criminal career in the foreseeable future. Do blacks getting harsher sentences a problem/injustice that needs to be fixed?.... YUP! Are white people being excused from crimes?.. Don't believe so. Are white people getting the sentences that they should be receiving?... Then, it's not really a privilege. And that is a problem that I have with this finger-pointing blame game: There is a definite privileged class that use that privilege for personal gain, and as long as we argue over who is getting the better scraps....... The other problem that I have is inherent with these arguments: Assigning a collective privilege (or guilt) to any individual, especially when it is unearned (or even unwarranted) is stupid thinking. Stupid to the point of being potentially dangerous.
There are still some definite race and gender problems that need to be fixed... Not being discriminated against isn't a problem that needs to be fixed.. FOCUS ON THE PROBLEM. Another problem with this thinking: Some people (of varying race and gender) will always have an advantage in any-given situation... worrying about that that as an excuse for your own presumed failure is a self-fulfilling prophecy. |
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Post by Eva Yojimbo on Jul 20, 2017 19:05:14 GMT
whites get lesser prison sentences than blacks I wish that people would stop telling me that this is some how a privilege of mine. No it's not... or, at the very least, one that I don't benefit from.... as I do not plan to embark on a criminal career in the foreseeable future. All whites have the privilege, even if it's only taken advantage of by white criminals. You don't have to be a criminal to say that it's a privilege you have. |
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Post by Cinemachinery on Jul 20, 2017 19:18:05 GMT
I wish that people would stop telling me that this is some how a privilege of mine. No it's not... or, at the very least, one that I don't benefit from.... as I do not plan to embark on a criminal career in the foreseeable future. All whites have the privilege, even if it's only taken advantage of by white criminals. You don't have to be a criminal to say that it's a privilege you have. Boy are you in for a treat, here. Ask him about his friend who works at Walmart and married a black woman. |
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Post by Eva Yojimbo on Jul 20, 2017 19:40:45 GMT
All whites have the privilege, even if it's only taken advantage of by white criminals. You don't have to be a criminal to say that it's a privilege you have. Boy are you in for a treat, here. Ask him about his friend who works at Walmart and married a black woman. I'm well-aware of Vegas's position on the issue. I'm pretty sure we even discussed it a few times on the old IMDb. I remember the Walmart thing. |
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Post by thorshairspray on Jul 20, 2017 23:14:45 GMT
Since you raised this in the other thread I figured we could discuss it here. Specifically Male Privilege and the reasons I reject the concept, if you like? Sure thing, though I was mostly interested in your rejection of it in light of saying Fresh Prince was one of your favorite shows when they almost explicitly dealt with the concept in the episode I mentioned. I'm probably not the best person to discuss the concept on a general level (there are others far more knowledgeable about such social issues than myself). The thing is with that that the US and the UK do not have the same racial dynamics. The UK has no history of mass migration before the late 90's. No history of slavery. Our policing is very different. Gender kind of remains the same across the West and was the concept of Male privilege I was really rejecting. So. Privilege in this context would be legal, social and economic advantages, unearned and unavailable to the opposite gender. Okay, we can discount the legal aspect, men have no rights that women don't and in some cases less. Now it is undeniable that in some circumstances men have advantages, the problem is that any example of this given ignores any situation where women have advantages and ignores the men who don't benefit. For example, I'll lift the top ten "male privileges" from the first Google hit. If you have a bad day or are in a bad mood, people aren’t going to blame it on your sex : You can be careless with your money and not have people blame it on your sex : You can be a careless driver and not have people blame it on your sex : You can be confident that your coworkers won’t assume you were hired because of your sex If you are never promoted, it isn’t because of your sex : You can expect to be paid equitably for the work you do, and not paid less because of your sex : If you are unable to succeed in your career, that won’t be seen as evidence against your sex in the workplace: A decision to hire you won’t be based on whether or not the employer assumes you will be having children in the near future : Work comfortably (or walk down a public street) without the fear of sexual harassment Walk alone at night without the fear of being raped or otherwise harmed So now lets look at a few areas where women have it better. Men are more likely to be murdered Men are more likely to be assaulted Men are more likely to be robbed Men are more likely to have mental health issues Men are more likely to kill themselves Men make up the vast majority of workplace deaths Men are more likely to be homeless Men don't live as long Both the US and the UK spend more money on female healthcare and preventative female healthcare than the male equivalents. So even eliminating the gender earnings gap, men are subsidising women's health. Women control the majority of domestic consumer spending. Men are more likely to serve a custodial sentence than a woman for an equivalent crime Men are likely to get longer sentences for an equivalent crime Women are more likely to get early release than men Women are more likely to instigate domestic violence than men and in cases where only one partner is violent it is usually the woman, yet all virtually help programs are for women and most focus on the reasons for male violence, ignoring female violence. Less men attend university Less men graduate. Which list looks worse? And I'm not even bothering to try offering the counterpoints to the first list, such as "Your masculinity will be questioned if you turn down sex" |
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Post by Eva Yojimbo on Jul 20, 2017 23:34:37 GMT
Sure thing, though I was mostly interested in your rejection of it in light of saying Fresh Prince was one of your favorite shows when they almost explicitly dealt with the concept in the episode I mentioned. I'm probably not the best person to discuss the concept on a general level (there are others far more knowledgeable about such social issues than myself). The thing is with that that the US and the UK do not have the same racial dynamics. The UK has no history of mass migration before the late 90's. No history of slavery. Our policing is very different. Gender kind of remains the same across the West and was the concept of Male privilege I was really rejecting. So. Privilege in this context would be legal, social and economic advantages, unearned and unavailable to the opposite gender. Okay, we can discount the legal aspect, men have no rights that women don't and in some cases less. Now it is undeniable that in some circumstances men have advantages, the problem is that any example of this given ignores any situation where women have advantages and ignores the men who don't benefit. For example, I'll lift the top ten "male privileges" from the first Google hit. If you have a bad day or are in a bad mood, people aren’t going to blame it on your sex : You can be careless with your money and not have people blame it on your sex : You can be a careless driver and not have people blame it on your sex : You can be confident that your coworkers won’t assume you were hired because of your sex If you are never promoted, it isn’t because of your sex : You can expect to be paid equitably for the work you do, and not paid less because of your sex : If you are unable to succeed in your career, that won’t be seen as evidence against your sex in the workplace: A decision to hire you won’t be based on whether or not the employer assumes you will be having children in the near future : Work comfortably (or walk down a public street) without the fear of sexual harassment Walk alone at night without the fear of being raped or otherwise harmed So now lets look at a few areas where women have it better. Men are more likely to be murdered Men are more likely to be assaulted Men are more likely to be robbed Men are more likely to have mental health issues Men are more likely to kill themselves Men make up the vast majority of workplace deaths Men are more likely to be homeless Men don't live as long Both the US and the UK spend more money on female healthcare and preventative female healthcare than the male equivalents. So even eliminating the gender earnings gap, men are subsidising women's health. Women control the majority of domestic consumer spending. Men are more likely to serve a custodial sentence than a woman for an equivalent crime Men are likely to get longer sentences for an equivalent crime Women are more likely to get early release than men Women are more likely to instigate domestic violence than men and in cases where only one partner is violent it is usually the woman, yet all virtually help programs are for women and most focus on the reasons for male violence, ignoring female violence. Less men attend university Less men graduate. Which list looks worse? Really, the biggest complaint I have with this post is the notion that just because you name areas where men have it worse that there's no such thing as male privilege. All you've done is show that there's (perhaps) certain female privileges. If the latter is true, and these are things that can be addressed socially, then they should be; just as if there are areas where males have privilege and these are things that can be addressed socially, they should be as well. This shouldn't really be a game of who's got it worse, or a game of "well, I have it bad in some ways so you should just shut up about the ways you have it bad." Even when it comes to your list, most of those are things we can't do anything about and I don't think are socially fixable problems: especially something like "don't live as long." Stuff like "more likely to kill themselves" might be socially fixable, but it would depend on knowing the reasons WHY they're more likely to kill themselves. Stuff like "murdered, assaulted, robbed," are the same, but the way to fix those is to figure out how to fix crime in general, not telling criminals to start murdering, assaulting, robbing women more. The biggest socially fixable one I see there is that men are "more likely to serve a custodial sentence than a woman for an equivalent crime." If true, that would be an example of female privilege and definitely something worth addressing. If "male privilege" is a more popular concept it's probably because feminism HAS had to spend decades fighting for women to have equal rights, so they're still very attuned to the ways in which society are still slighting women. I don't think most liberals (though I could be wrong) would say that there are NO ways where women have it better/men have it worse; but I too often find that the only times you see such things brought up is when someone is trying to deny the legitimacy of many of the claims made about male privilege (which could be correct regardless of whether there's any "female privilege"). Even your "which looks worse?" seems to imply a kind of "men have it worse, so women should stop complaining" mentality as opposed to a "we should work to fix 'male privilege' problems, as well as some of these problems that men are more likely to face." To me, the latter is a much more productive, moral attitude to have. Now, if you want to debate any of these specific issues in depth I'm probably not your man. Others would know the statistics and relative facts far more than myself; I'm just trying to speak of it on a very generalized, basic level. |
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Post by general313 on Jul 20, 2017 23:53:43 GMT
Sure thing, though I was mostly interested in your rejection of it in light of saying Fresh Prince was one of your favorite shows when they almost explicitly dealt with the concept in the episode I mentioned. I'm probably not the best person to discuss the concept on a general level (there are others far more knowledgeable about such social issues than myself). The thing is with that that the US and the UK do not have the same racial dynamics. The UK has no history of mass migration before the late 90's. No history of slavery. Our policing is very different. Gender kind of remains the same across the West and was the concept of Male privilege I was really rejecting. So. Privilege in this context would be legal, social and economic advantages, unearned and unavailable to the opposite gender. Okay, we can discount the legal aspect, men have no rights that women don't and in some cases less. Now it is undeniable that in some circumstances men have advantages, the problem is that any example of this given ignores any situation where women have advantages and ignores the men who don't benefit. For example, I'll lift the top ten "male privileges" from the first Google hit. If you have a bad day or are in a bad mood, people aren’t going to blame it on your sex : You can be careless with your money and not have people blame it on your sex : You can be a careless driver and not have people blame it on your sex : You can be confident that your coworkers won’t assume you were hired because of your sex If you are never promoted, it isn’t because of your sex : You can expect to be paid equitably for the work you do, and not paid less because of your sex : If you are unable to succeed in your career, that won’t be seen as evidence against your sex in the workplace: A decision to hire you won’t be based on whether or not the employer assumes you will be having children in the near future : Work comfortably (or walk down a public street) without the fear of sexual harassment Walk alone at night without the fear of being raped or otherwise harmed So now lets look at a few areas where women have it better. Men are more likely to be murdered Men are more likely to be assaulted Men are more likely to be robbed Men are more likely to have mental health issues Men are more likely to kill themselves Men make up the vast majority of workplace deaths Men are more likely to be homeless Men don't live as long Both the US and the UK spend more money on female healthcare and preventative female healthcare than the male equivalents. So even eliminating the gender earnings gap, men are subsidising women's health. Women control the majority of domestic consumer spending. Men are more likely to serve a custodial sentence than a woman for an equivalent crime Men are likely to get longer sentences for an equivalent crime Women are more likely to get early release than men Women are more likely to instigate domestic violence than men and in cases where only one partner is violent it is usually the woman, yet all virtually help programs are for women and most focus on the reasons for male violence, ignoring female violence. Less men attend university Less men graduate. Which list looks worse? And I'm not even bothering to try offering the counterpoints to the first list, such as "Your masculinity will be questioned if you turn down sex" In the U.S. there is still a gender gap in pay, in part because of discrimination. www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2017/04/03/gender-pay-gap-facts/I suspect that is true in other countries too. |
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Post by thorshairspray on Jul 21, 2017 1:07:03 GMT
The thing is with that that the US and the UK do not have the same racial dynamics. The UK has no history of mass migration before the late 90's. No history of slavery. Our policing is very different. Gender kind of remains the same across the West and was the concept of Male privilege I was really rejecting. So. Privilege in this context would be legal, social and economic advantages, unearned and unavailable to the opposite gender. Okay, we can discount the legal aspect, men have no rights that women don't and in some cases less. Now it is undeniable that in some circumstances men have advantages, the problem is that any example of this given ignores any situation where women have advantages and ignores the men who don't benefit. For example, I'll lift the top ten "male privileges" from the first Google hit. If you have a bad day or are in a bad mood, people aren’t going to blame it on your sex : You can be careless with your money and not have people blame it on your sex : You can be a careless driver and not have people blame it on your sex : You can be confident that your coworkers won’t assume you were hired because of your sex If you are never promoted, it isn’t because of your sex : You can expect to be paid equitably for the work you do, and not paid less because of your sex : If you are unable to succeed in your career, that won’t be seen as evidence against your sex in the workplace: A decision to hire you won’t be based on whether or not the employer assumes you will be having children in the near future : Work comfortably (or walk down a public street) without the fear of sexual harassment Walk alone at night without the fear of being raped or otherwise harmed So now lets look at a few areas where women have it better. Men are more likely to be murdered Men are more likely to be assaulted Men are more likely to be robbed Men are more likely to have mental health issues Men are more likely to kill themselves Men make up the vast majority of workplace deaths Men are more likely to be homeless Men don't live as long Both the US and the UK spend more money on female healthcare and preventative female healthcare than the male equivalents. So even eliminating the gender earnings gap, men are subsidising women's health. Women control the majority of domestic consumer spending. Men are more likely to serve a custodial sentence than a woman for an equivalent crime Men are likely to get longer sentences for an equivalent crime Women are more likely to get early release than men Women are more likely to instigate domestic violence than men and in cases where only one partner is violent it is usually the woman, yet all virtually help programs are for women and most focus on the reasons for male violence, ignoring female violence. Less men attend university Less men graduate. Which list looks worse? Really, the biggest complaint I have with this post is the notion that just because you name areas where men have it worse that there's no such thing as male privilege. All you've done is show that there's (perhaps) certain female privileges. If the latter is true, and these are things that can be addressed socially, then they should be; just as if there are areas where males have privilege and these are things that can be addressed socially, they should be as well. This shouldn't really be a game of who's got it worse, or a game of "well, I have it bad in some ways so you should just shut up about the ways you have it bad." Even when it comes to your list, most of those are things we can't do anything about and I don't think are socially fixable problems: especially something like "don't live as long." Stuff like "more likely to kill themselves" might be socially fixable, but it would depend on knowing the reasons WHY they're more likely to kill themselves. Stuff like "murdered, assaulted, robbed," are the same, but the way to fix those is to figure out how to fix crime in general, not telling criminals to start murdering, assaulting, robbing women more. The biggest socially fixable one I see there is that men are "more likely to serve a custodial sentence than a woman for an equivalent crime." If true, that would be an example of female privilege and definitely something worth addressing. If "male privilege" is a more popular concept it's probably because feminism HAS had to spend decades fighting for women to have equal rights, so they're still very attuned to the ways in which society are still slighting women. I don't think most liberals (though I could be wrong) would say that there are NO ways where women have it better/men have it worse; but I too often find that the only times you see such things brought up is when someone is trying to deny the legitimacy of many of the claims made about male privilege (which could be correct regardless of whether there's any "female privilege"). Even your "which looks worse?" seems to imply a kind of "men have it worse, so women should stop complaining" mentality as opposed to a "we should work to fix 'male privilege' problems, as well as some of these problems that men are more likely to face." To me, the latter is a much more productive, moral attitude to have. Now, if you want to debate any of these specific issues in depth I'm probably not your man. Others would know the statistics and relative facts far more than myself; I'm just trying to speak of it on a very generalized, basic level. From my post "Now it is undeniable that in some circumstances men have advantages, the problem is that any example of this given ignores any situation where women have advantages and ignores the men who don't benefit." But why is "male privilege" the only one talked about? Yes, women had to fight for equality, just as men had to fight before that to achieve the freedoms we all now have. Does the term "Female privilege" exist? Of the things I listed as male disadvantages, they are verifiably true. Most of the "Male Privileges" are based on feelings. For example, the one about "feeling safe walking alone at night" Women may well feel more at risk, but they aren't, so what exactly are men supposed to do about it? You're a clever person, one of the ones I respect most, but even here you seem to feel compelled to defend the concept. Why is that? I'm a liberal, a true liberal, not one of the current crybabies who riot when they don't get their own way. This means I have to judge every individual based on that individual, so the concept of applying "privilege" to an entire demographic is alien and wrong. And making an argument about one group having advantages while ignoring their disadvantages is just dishonest. |
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Post by thorshairspray on Jul 21, 2017 1:17:46 GMT
The thing is with that that the US and the UK do not have the same racial dynamics. The UK has no history of mass migration before the late 90's. No history of slavery. Our policing is very different. Gender kind of remains the same across the West and was the concept of Male privilege I was really rejecting. So. Privilege in this context would be legal, social and economic advantages, unearned and unavailable to the opposite gender. Okay, we can discount the legal aspect, men have no rights that women don't and in some cases less. Now it is undeniable that in some circumstances men have advantages, the problem is that any example of this given ignores any situation where women have advantages and ignores the men who don't benefit. For example, I'll lift the top ten "male privileges" from the first Google hit. If you have a bad day or are in a bad mood, people aren’t going to blame it on your sex : You can be careless with your money and not have people blame it on your sex : You can be a careless driver and not have people blame it on your sex : You can be confident that your coworkers won’t assume you were hired because of your sex If you are never promoted, it isn’t because of your sex : You can expect to be paid equitably for the work you do, and not paid less because of your sex : If you are unable to succeed in your career, that won’t be seen as evidence against your sex in the workplace: A decision to hire you won’t be based on whether or not the employer assumes you will be having children in the near future : Work comfortably (or walk down a public street) without the fear of sexual harassment Walk alone at night without the fear of being raped or otherwise harmed So now lets look at a few areas where women have it better. Men are more likely to be murdered Men are more likely to be assaulted Men are more likely to be robbed Men are more likely to have mental health issues Men are more likely to kill themselves Men make up the vast majority of workplace deaths Men are more likely to be homeless Men don't live as long Both the US and the UK spend more money on female healthcare and preventative female healthcare than the male equivalents. So even eliminating the gender earnings gap, men are subsidising women's health. Women control the majority of domestic consumer spending. Men are more likely to serve a custodial sentence than a woman for an equivalent crime Men are likely to get longer sentences for an equivalent crime Women are more likely to get early release than men Women are more likely to instigate domestic violence than men and in cases where only one partner is violent it is usually the woman, yet all virtually help programs are for women and most focus on the reasons for male violence, ignoring female violence. Less men attend university Less men graduate. Which list looks worse? And I'm not even bothering to try offering the counterpoints to the first list, such as "Your masculinity will be questioned if you turn down sex" In the U.S. there is still a gender gap in pay, in part because of discrimination. www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2017/04/03/gender-pay-gap-facts/I suspect that is true in other countries too. No. There is an earnings gap, not a pay gap. The Pew research is referring to earnings, not pay. On average, women take more time off sick and do less overtime than men. So if you had 1000 men and 1000 women all on $20 per hour on a 40 hour a week contract, at the end on the year the men would have out earned the women. Since overtime is usually paid at a higher rate than regular time this also gives the men a higher hourly rate. Real World examples. Under Obama the White House reported something like a 16% "pay gap" Every person was paid exactly the same amount for the same job. But more women were employed at entry level, thus men appeared to earn more, but they didn't. Tescos in the UK reported a 2% gender wage gap when audited. This was due to mangers of bigger units earning more. The only time you see any job advertised that pays more based on gender is when one gender is a valued commodity, such as male nurses. |
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Post by Vegas on Jul 21, 2017 4:40:42 GMT
Boy are you in for a treat, here. Ask him about his friend who works at Walmart and married a black woman. Wow.. You really are just a weird, creepy fuck... What? The thought of somebody having a friend married to black woman make you all giddy even years later... That's really sad and pathetic.  But.. I think it worked: Nobody realized that you didn't actually make a point. |
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Post by theoncomingstorm on Jul 21, 2017 5:09:06 GMT
All whites have the privilege, even if it's only taken advantage of by white criminals. You don't have to be a criminal to say that it's a privilege you have. Boy are you in for a treat, here. Ask him about his friend who works at Walmart and married a black woman. I can't be a racist because I have two black children living in my house. There is no way to ever get "certain people" to understand how stupid, and inherently racist, such statements are. Having two black children living in my house is not what makes me non-racist. But comprehending such concepts is simply beyond the cognitive abilities of "certain people". |
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PanLeo
Sophomore
@saoradh
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Post by PanLeo on Jul 21, 2017 7:07:24 GMT
Right now males rights are more important than women's rights.
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Post by FilmFlaneur on Jul 21, 2017 8:37:24 GMT
No. There is an earnings gap, not a pay gap. The Pew research is referring to earnings, not pay .. Tescos in the UK reported a 2% gender wage gap when audited. This was due to mangers of bigger units earning more. The only time you see any job advertised that pays more based on gender is when one gender is a valued commodity, such as male nurses. The current furore about the BBC gender (and ethnic) pay gap, which has now become apparent after a forced reveal of pay levels within the corporation, would suggest that this is a real, continuing problem, no matter the lip service paid to ideals by large companies who ought to know better. So much so that I understand that a group of female presenters are considering a class action against their employers. www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/revealed-pay-packets-of-96-bbc-presenters-who-earn-more-than-150000-a3591151.html |
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