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Shae
Aug 5, 2017 2:33:56 GMT
Post by Leo of Red Keep on Aug 5, 2017 2:33:56 GMT
So you think Tyrion decided to go upstairs to his father's bedroom to have a nice chat with him? Smart boy. Murder was on his mind the moment he headed there. How else could he escape afterwards? Shae's presence made no difference. I think he thought his father once again interfered in his life by turning Shae so I do think he was going to kill him anyway. Shae being there was the reason for her murder. His dad told him he'd let him go to The Wall but used Shae to seal his fate IMO and earned his murder. Tyrion had to kill anyone he would find in this room if he wanted to get out of it. This is something he knew when he entered it and while we may speculate how shocked he was to find Shae in his father's bed, he didn't have a choice. The funny thing is that Tywin was actually doing Shae a favour, giving her a new chance at a life of relative wealth. Tyrion was responsible for his sentence by demanding a trial by combat. Tywin no longer had a choice in the matter afterwards. The Tyrion fandom likes to see him as the eternal underdog brutalised by his environment but a sober observation shows he was very much responsible for much of what happened to him. He was the one slapping Joffrey in public, antagonising his sister and making demands to his father he knew were not acceptable in his eyes. Tyrion started as a fighter ("never forget what you are, use it as armour") and evolved into someone making demands on the basis of his disadvantage and amplifying his perceived plight.
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Shae
Aug 5, 2017 3:37:03 GMT
via mobile
Post by CynicalDreamer2 on Aug 5, 2017 3:37:03 GMT
I think he thought his father once again interfered in his life by turning Shae so I do think he was going to kill him anyway. Shae being there was the reason for her murder. His dad told him he'd let him go to The Wall but used Shae to seal his fate IMO and earned his murder. Tyrion had to kill anyone he would find in this room if he wanted to get out of it. This is something he knew when he entered it and while we may speculate how shocked he was to find Shae in his father's bed, he didn't have a choice. The funny thing is that Tywin was actually doing Shae a favour, giving her a new chance at a life of relative wealth. Tyrion was responsible for his sentence by demanding a trial by combat. Tywin no longer had a choice in the matter afterwards. The Tyrion fandom likes to see him as the eternal underdog brutalised by his environment but a sober observation shows he was very much responsible for much of what happened to him. He was the one slapping Joffrey in public, antagonising his sister and making demands to his father he knew were not acceptable in his eyes. Tyrion started as a fighter ("never forget what you are, use it as armour") and evolved into someone making demands on the basis of his disadvantage and amplifying his perceived plight. Hmmm, good points for sure but I still disagree on certain aspects. Yes, he would have had to kill anyone in the room but I have to assume he knew his father's habits and didn't think anyone else would be there in the middle of the night. However, the betrayal by Shae I feel was too much but that his father was now sleeping with her and the depth of his hypocrisy pushed him even further over the edge on top of the fact that she really IS just s whore? Too much, although I don't think he would have hunted Shae down for the betrayal if he didn't see it himself but instead put it solely on his father and rightfully so. (according to the show) I actually don't think his sentence was his fault given that he wasn't guilty. Why should he accept that sham of a trial when he didn't do it? Would you accept a murder charge and banishment if you were innocent? I don't know that I would but I'm keeping in mind that Tyrion was proud and sometimes you have to take a loss when faced with a stacked deck. I admit I'm a Tyrion fan because I admire that he was written as an interesting character with some depth to him but he grew up as a joke so we can't discount that. However, he was a fairly decent character with a monster of a nephew. Do you not discipline the children in your family? He also didn't slap him in public, only the Hound saw but I see your point. To Joffrey that it happened in front of anyone would have hyped his hate. It just so happens that while Cercei loved her children she raised and encouraged a monster and her twin, his father wasn't going to say too much and she has nothing but hate for Tyrion who, outside of Tywin, was the only one who put him in his place. None of Tyrion's behavior towards his nephew says murder. Sansa was a much more likely suspect.
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Shae
Aug 5, 2017 6:12:07 GMT
Post by Leo of Red Keep on Aug 5, 2017 6:12:07 GMT
Tyrion had to kill anyone he would find in this room if he wanted to get out of it. This is something he knew when he entered it and while we may speculate how shocked he was to find Shae in his father's bed, he didn't have a choice. The funny thing is that Tywin was actually doing Shae a favour, giving her a new chance at a life of relative wealth. Tyrion was responsible for his sentence by demanding a trial by combat. Tywin no longer had a choice in the matter afterwards. The Tyrion fandom likes to see him as the eternal underdog brutalised by his environment but a sober observation shows he was very much responsible for much of what happened to him. He was the one slapping Joffrey in public, antagonising his sister and making demands to his father he knew were not acceptable in his eyes. Tyrion started as a fighter ("never forget what you are, use it as armour") and evolved into someone making demands on the basis of his disadvantage and amplifying his perceived plight. Hmmm, good points for sure but I still disagree on certain aspects. Yes, he would have had to kill anyone in the room but I have to assume he knew his father's habits and didn't think anyone else would be there in the middle of the night. However, the betrayal by Shae I feel was too much but that his father was now sleeping with her and the depth of his hypocrisy pushed him even further over the edge on top of the fact that she really IS just s whore? Too much, although I don't think he would have hunted Shae down for the betrayal if he didn't see it himself but instead put it solely on his father and rightfully so. (according to the show) I actually don't think his sentence was his fault given that he wasn't guilty. Why should he accept that sham of a trial when he didn't do it? Would you accept a murder charge and banishment if you were innocent? I don't know that I would but I'm keeping in mind that Tyrion was proud and sometimes you have to take a loss when faced with a stacked deck. I admit I'm a Tyrion fan because I admire that he was written as an interesting character with some depth to him but he grew up as a joke so we can't discount that. However, he was a fairly decent character with a monstcer of a nephew. Do you not discipline the children in your family? He also didn't slap him in public, only the Hound saw but I see your point. To Joffrey that it happened in front of anyone would have hyped his hate. It just so happens that while Cercei loved her children she raised and encouraged a monster and her twin, his father wasn't going to say too much and she has nothing but hate for Tyrion who, outside of Tywin, was the only one who put him in his place. None of Tyrion's behavior towards his nephew says murder. Sansa was a much more likely suspect. There was no hypocrisy in Tywin. The problem in his eyes was not that Tyrion was using the service of whores but that he fell in love with one and developed a lasting relationship with her. The same way Tywin would drink wine like anyone else but you'd never see him getting embarrassingly drunk in public. Tyrion was given a way out and rejected it. Worse, he declined to defend himself. It was not so much a sham trial, by the way. Apart from Shae's testimony, which included things which were not supported by events visible in the show, everyone was speaking the truth: Trant, Pycelle, Varys, Cersei merely repeated what we saw in previous seasons. They had various motives: Trant had been Joffrey's paw and knew Tyrion would get him into trouble if allowed to influence the new king. Pycelle was justly indignant for having been molested and thrown into a cell after serving the Lannister cause. He had experienced Tyrion as a man who played his own game against his family in Season 2 (Tyrion had done the same with Janos Slynt). Varys was navigating the dangerous waters of power and Cersei was sincere in her belief. The trial was not set up and I have a hard time believing Tywin was consciously smearing his own name to remove a son he could have easily sent away with a function. Tyrion lost control and blew into a purely emotional outburst at the crucial moment, accusing and damning a whole city instead of defending his position in all the exposed cases. We saw a man react to his own nightmare ("on trial for being a dwarf") rather than to reality. Smart Tyrion should have known his father didn't want a recognised kingslayer in his family but he was no longer smart in this situation. It is one thing to discipline a nephew and quite another when he is the next king, or worse, the present one. Tyrion was reckless in his treatment of Joffrey. He lectured him in the throne room and slapped him again in front of the scrambling retinue after the cow pie riot. He even threatened him at the Small Council. Doing this, he was actively undermining not only Joffrey's dignity but that of the function of king itself. Cersei was right, Tyrion was a disease. Her handling of Joffrey was way better, albeit unsuccessful, but she couldn't win. After they reached a certain age, mothers no longer win with sons. It was Margaery's turn and she was better at it than Tyrion. This story has always been playing with its viewers, showing them one side, leading them into false deductions, tempting them into sympathies or antipathies, then pulling a twist, revealing other sides to characters or having them evolve into something else. Tyrion is of the latter case, we see him change after the Blackwater battle. He slowly stops being a Lannister after his conversation with Tywin in S3E01. The teller of bad jokes of Season 6 has undermined the character but we can still enjoy and discuss the intricacies of earlier seasons. I liked Tyrion up to his trial and I kept enjoying him later on but my opinion on him changed as I wrote here.
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