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Post by maya55555 on Aug 3, 2017 3:39:21 GMT
Enjoy:
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Post by The Herald Erjen on Aug 3, 2017 6:40:34 GMT
Good video. It's a shame that Greece had to wait so long for Islamic rule to be removed from their country, but at least it happened.
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Post by yougotastewgoinbaby on Aug 3, 2017 6:49:42 GMT
Hmmmm...
Did the crusades save Europe? From Islam? Not so sure...
After the first five crusades...the big ones...Constantinople still fell, and the Turks did advance well into Europe. The Battle of Lepanto definitely stalled them, but they held on into the 1800's. That's several centuries of dominion in European land.
But, they held parts of eastern Europe and the Balkans, and fuck those places, right? So maybe it's more accurate to say that the Crusades saved Western Europe? But how true is that? The video briefly mentions the Albigensian crusade, where the Catholic forces massacred > 200,000 Cathars in southern France. So...the defenders of Europe turned on themselves. Just goes to show you that the only thing medieval Christians hated more than muslims were Christians of a different denomination. Meanwhile Islamic states still resided fairly comfortably in Spain, while most of the military forces went down to the holy land instead of participating in the reconquista. So, life in western Europe still sucked.
So then maybe the Crusades saved Christendom? Sure. But how much of a threat were the muslim forces prior to the Crusades? Islamic advances in Spain had already been checked a couple centuries before, and the unified Islamic world had already split into the fractious, infighting mess that it has been pretty much up to the present day. Perhaps, if the Islamic arabic dynasties of the Mid-East were allowed to remain in power, then the invading Seljuk Turks from the east would have been checked, or at least stalled in their eventual conquest of Anatolia. Also, Christendom was fighting among itself (again, Albigensian Crusade and the Fourth Crusade) and would only continue to get worse in the Reformation in the coming centuries. The wars of religion following the Reformation far outweigh the crusades in casualties...but it's Christian on Christian killing, so baby Jesus can at least feel a little better about that. As long as those sand loving rag heads don't kill any of our guys, it's all good.
So, perhaps the most accurate thing to say is that the Crusades saved (mostly) western Europe (except Spain) from being killed by Muslims, although western European Christians did plenty of killing among themselves in the process. I dunno, seems like it's all kind of a wash.
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Post by dividavi on Aug 3, 2017 8:12:22 GMT
The video mentioned in passing the Crusade against the Albigensians where the Pope decreed a genocide against religious dissenters. In Béziers, the entire population was slaughtered and the city burned to the ground. Contemporary sources give estimates of the number of dead ranging between 15,000 and 20,000. Not mentioned in your excellent video was the People's Crusade of 1096. In the late spring and summer of 1096, crusaders destroyed most of the Jewish communities along the Rhine in a series of unprecedentedly large pogroms in France and Germany in which thousands of Jews were massacred, driven to suicide, or forced to convert to Christianity. Eleven Jews were murdered in Speyer, where the Bishop saved the rest of the Jews for a large payment, but in Worms some 800 were murdered. In Mainz, over one thousand Jews were murdered, as well as more in Trier, Metz, Cologne, and elsewhere. Others were subjected to forced baptism and conversion. Also omitted was the Fourth Crusade, a Western European armed expedition called by Pope Innocent III, originally intended to reconquer Muslim-controlled Jerusalem by means of an invasion through Egypt. Instead, a sequence of events culminated in the Crusaders sacking the city of Constantinople, the capital of the Christian-controlled Byzantine Empire. Nonetheless, it was a great video, Maya. Thanks for your efforts.
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Post by Aj_June on Aug 3, 2017 9:30:31 GMT
Hmmmm... Did the crusades save Europe? From Islam? Not so sure... After the first five crusades...the big ones...Constantinople still fell, and the Turks did advance well into Europe. The Battle of Lepanto definitely stalled them, but they held on into the 1800's. That's several centuries of dominion in European land. But, they held parts of eastern Europe and the Balkans, and fuck those places, right? So maybe it's more accurate to say that the Crusades saved Western Europe? But how true is that? The video briefly mentions the Albigensian crusade, where the Catholic forces massacred > 200,000 Cathars in southern France. So...the defenders of Europe turned on themselves. Just goes to show you that the only thing medieval Christians hated more than muslims were Christians of a different denomination. Meanwhile Islamic states still resided fairly comfortably in Spain, while most of the military forces went down to the holy land instead of participating in the reconquista. So, life in western Europe still sucked. So then maybe the Crusades saved Christendom? Sure. But how much of a threat were the muslim forces prior to the Crusades? Islamic advances in Spain had already been checked a couple centuries before, and the unified Islamic world had already split into the fractious, infighting mess that it has been pretty much up to the present day. Perhaps, if the Islamic arabic dynasties of the Mid-East were allowed to remain in power, then the invading Seljuk Turks from the east would have been checked, or at least stalled in their eventual conquest of Anatolia. Also, Christendom was fighting among itself (again, Albigensian Crusade and the Fourth Crusade) and would only continue to get worse in the Reformation in the coming centuries. The wars of religion following the Reformation far outweigh the crusades in casualties...but it's Christian on Christian killing, so baby Jesus can at least feel a little better about that. As long as those sand loving rag heads don't kill any of our guys, it's all good. So, perhaps the most accurate thing to say is that the Crusades saved (mostly) western Europe (except Spain) from being killed by Muslims, although western European Christians did plenty of killing among themselves in the process. I dunno, seems like it's all kind of a wash. Top post. Educational for me as I haven't got much knowledge on crusade stuff.
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Post by The Herald Erjen on Aug 3, 2017 9:40:01 GMT
Hmmmm... Did the crusades save Europe? From Islam? Not so sure... After the first five crusades...the big ones...Constantinople still fell, and the Turks did advance well into Europe. The Battle of Lepanto definitely stalled them, but they held on into the 1800's. That's several centuries of dominion in European land. But, they held parts of eastern Europe and the Balkans, and fuck those places, right? So maybe it's more accurate to say that the Crusades saved Western Europe? But how true is that? The video briefly mentions the Albigensian crusade, where the Catholic forces massacred > 200,000 Cathars in southern France. So...the defenders of Europe turned on themselves. Just goes to show you that the only thing medieval Christians hated more than muslims were Christians of a different denomination. Meanwhile Islamic states still resided fairly comfortably in Spain, while most of the military forces went down to the holy land instead of participating in the reconquista. So, life in western Europe still sucked. So then maybe the Crusades saved Christendom? Sure. But how much of a threat were the muslim forces prior to the Crusades? Islamic advances in Spain had already been checked a couple centuries before, and the unified Islamic world had already split into the fractious, infighting mess that it has been pretty much up to the present day. Perhaps, if the Islamic arabic dynasties of the Mid-East were allowed to remain in power, then the invading Seljuk Turks from the east would have been checked, or at least stalled in their eventual conquest of Anatolia. Also, Christendom was fighting among itself (again, Albigensian Crusade and the Fourth Crusade) and would only continue to get worse in the Reformation in the coming centuries. The wars of religion following the Reformation far outweigh the crusades in casualties...but it's Christian on Christian killing, so baby Jesus can at least feel a little better about that. As long as those sand loving rag heads don't kill any of our guys, it's all good. So, perhaps the most accurate thing to say is that the Crusades saved (mostly) western Europe (except Spain) from being killed by Muslims, although western European Christians did plenty of killing among themselves in the process. I dunno, seems like it's all kind of a wash. Top post. Educational for me as I haven't got much knowledge on crusade stuff. And you're not likely to get much education from him. He's just putting his own Anti-Christian spin on it.
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Post by OldSamVimes on Aug 3, 2017 10:22:12 GMT
Top post. Educational for me as I haven't got much knowledge on crusade stuff. And you're not likely to get much education from him. He's just putting his own Anti-Christian spin on it. It's super easy to put an anti-christian spin on the crusades Erjen. When you kill a bunch of people while pushing your religion on them it tends to make you look bad.
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The Lost One
Junior Member
@lostkiera
Posts: 2,677
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Post by The Lost One on Aug 3, 2017 11:08:59 GMT
Top post. Educational for me as I haven't got much knowledge on crusade stuff. And you're not likely to get much education from him. He's just putting his own Anti-Christian spin on it. Even from a pro-Christian point of view, you'd be hard-pressed to defend the Crusaders sacking the Christian city of Constantinople.
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vernuf
Sophomore
@vernuf
Posts: 310
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Post by vernuf on Aug 3, 2017 11:39:07 GMT
Top post. Educational for me as I haven't got much knowledge on crusade stuff. And you're not likely to get much education from him. He's just putting his own Anti-Christian spin on it. Just because you don't like reality doesn't change that it's reality.
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Post by The Herald Erjen on Aug 3, 2017 17:06:11 GMT
And you're not likely to get much education from him. He's just putting his own Anti-Christian spin on it. Even from a pro-Christian point of view, you'd be hard-pressed to defend the Crusaders sacking the Christian city of Constantinople. Agreed. It wasn't supposed to happen. Stew didn't mention it but if memory serves they previously sacked the Christian city of Zara in order to pay for their transport before they even reached Constantinople. The Fourth Crusade was a failure. They never made it to their objective. I think the Pope ended up excommunicating the entire army.
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Post by maya55555 on Aug 3, 2017 17:41:10 GMT
THE
Re: Greece----That is why to this day there is "bad blood" between Turkey and Greece. There are other reasons in their continued Hx of wars.
Odd thing, my teacher secured a gig for us to dance for charity at a Greek Orthodox Center in NYC. Their Deacon had a fit and we were cancelled.
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Post by maya55555 on Aug 3, 2017 17:44:23 GMT
dividavi
If I am not mistaken, their primary focus was the First Crusade.
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Post by The Herald Erjen on Aug 3, 2017 17:52:31 GMT
THE
Re: Greece----That is why to this day there is "bad blood" between Turkey and Greece. There are other reasons in their continued Hx of wars.
Odd thing, my teacher secured a gig for us to dance for charity at a Greek Orthodox Center in NYC. Their Deacon had a fit and we were cancelled. One of my high school teachers was talking about the bad blood between Turkey and Greece. I asked her if the Turks called the Greeks infidels. She said that's the nicest thing they call them.
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Post by The Herald Erjen on Aug 3, 2017 18:25:32 GMT
And you're not likely to get much education from him. He's just putting his own Anti-Christian spin on it. It's super easy to put an anti-christian spin on the crusades Erjen. When you kill a bunch of people while pushing your religion on them it tends to make you look bad. It wasn't done to "push religion on them." You're lying (again). It was done to liberate Christian lands overrun my the Muslims, and to defend Europe against Muslim expansion.
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Post by rachelcarson1953 on Aug 3, 2017 18:32:23 GMT
And you're not likely to get much education from him. He's just putting his own Anti-Christian spin on it. It's super easy to put an anti-christian spin on the crusades Erjen. When you kill a bunch of people while pushing your religion on them it tends to make you look bad. Exactly. And now the Muslims are returning the sentiment, trying to save the Western world from Christianity. Interesting that the three Abrahamic religions have to fight to the death over which version of the invisible sky father is the correct one. Back in 2001, after the World Trade Center and the Pentagon were attacked, I made a comment to some people I worked with that the Muslims were just doing what the Christians did during the Crusades. If looks could kill, I would have been drawn, quartered and beheaded. Christian Crusade, Muslim Jihad; same thing. And the Jews have been persecuted by each offshoot of their religion. All part of 'God's Plan' or just plain old human nature to protect the insiders of the tribe from outsiders. One would think we could have evolved beyond this by now. I guess not.
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Post by general313 on Aug 3, 2017 18:47:44 GMT
It's super easy to put an anti-christian spin on the crusades Erjen. When you kill a bunch of people while pushing your religion on them it tends to make you look bad. Christian Crusade, Muslim Jihad; same thing. Precisely.
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Post by yougotastewgoinbaby on Aug 3, 2017 19:46:33 GMT
Even from a pro-Christian point of view, you'd be hard-pressed to defend the Crusaders sacking the Christian city of Constantinople. Agreed. It wasn't supposed to happen. Stew didn't mention it but if memory serves they previously sacked the Christian city of Zara in order to pay for their transport before they even reached Constantinople. The Fourth Crusade was a failure. They never made it to their objective. I think the Pope ended up excommunicating the entire army. I did mention it briefly, along with the Albigensian Crusade, as an example of Christian infighting. Most all pure intentions of Holy War against infidels dissipated after the First Crusade. The later crusades were mostly land grabs...nascent experiments in colonialism that would be remembered and recalled later by the conquistadors in the New World in their fight against Aztecs/Incas. If you want to point a finger at a muslim group and call them the enemies of Europe, then it has to be the Seljuk Turks, who were migrating westward from central Asia. The Arabic caliphates were mostly squabbling among themselves and of little threat to European dominion...even the Byzantines. And yes, the Fourth Crusade was a complete failure, and the pope lifted his excommunication of the participants and, of course, accepted the loot that was taken from Constantinople...it's what Jesus would've wanted. If the Arabic caliphates and Constantinople would've been left unmolested by Crusaders, the Seljuk/Ottoman Turks probably would've still conquered Anatolia and threatened Europe. But, it would've taken them longer. Looking at it that way, I can't agree with you/maya/the video that the Crusades saved Eruope.
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Post by maya55555 on Aug 3, 2017 21:04:59 GMT
moldmammines
OK, BOO-BOO, take your quote and tell that to the Muslims.. You have read the Koran? Right?
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Post by gadreel on Aug 3, 2017 21:34:33 GMT
moldmammines
OK, BOO-BOO, take your quote and tell that to the Muslims.. You have read the Koran? Right?
Just cos one group of people does something does not make is right, elsewise all things would be ok to do.
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Post by OldSamVimes on Aug 3, 2017 22:16:08 GMT
moldmammines
OK, BOO-BOO, take your quote and tell that to the Muslims.. You have read the Koran? Right?
The Muslims are every bit as bad as the Christians. All the Abrahamic religions are stupid and the world would be a better place without them. Looks like they're in a rush to kill each other off, hopefully that happens soon.
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