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Post by clusium on Aug 3, 2017 5:25:54 GMT
Enjoy & discuss, everybody!!!!
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Post by The Herald Erjen on Aug 3, 2017 6:33:14 GMT
Interesting. Do you think it's a mental illness?
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Post by geode on Aug 3, 2017 9:02:01 GMT
First of all Ben Shapiro is a very irritating speaker that talks way too quickly, so fast that he often stumbles over himself as a result as if he has a speech impediment. But putting that aside, why should anybody pay any attention to what he says on this subject? Is he a biologist? No. Is he a medical doctor? No. Is he a psychologist? No.
His metric of using suicide as a basis for mental illness is questionable at best. I would take Justin Bieber's opinion on this subject as seriously as that of Ben Shapiro. Personally I don't have the background to know what is valid or not valid in terms of transgenderism, and I'll bet my ability with science is way ahead of his.
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Post by scienceisgod on Aug 3, 2017 10:08:13 GMT
First of all Ben Shapiro is a very irritating speaker that talks way too quickly, so fast that he often stumbles over himself as a result as if he has a speech impediment. But putting that aside, why should anybody pay any attention to what he says on this subject? Is he a biologist? No. Is he a medical doctor? No. Is he a psychologist? No. His metric of using suicide as a basis for mental illness is questionable at best. I would take Justin Bieber's opinion on this subject as seriously as that of Ben Shapiro. Personally I don't have the background to know what is valid or not valid in terms of transgenderism, and I'll bet my ability with science is way ahead of his. What happens when some guy with 10 fancy degrees gets paid to say transgenderism is not mathematically equal to cisgenderism? Do you hide under the covers? That's some pretty cowardly anti-intellectualism.
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Post by geode on Aug 3, 2017 11:08:06 GMT
First of all Ben Shapiro is a very irritating speaker that talks way too quickly, so fast that he often stumbles over himself as a result as if he has a speech impediment. But putting that aside, why should anybody pay any attention to what he says on this subject? Is he a biologist? No. Is he a medical doctor? No. Is he a psychologist? No. His metric of using suicide as a basis for mental illness is questionable at best. I would take Justin Bieber's opinion on this subject as seriously as that of Ben Shapiro. Personally I don't have the background to know what is valid or not valid in terms of transgenderism, and I'll bet my ability with science is way ahead of his. What happens when some guy with 10 fancy degrees gets paid to say transgenderism is not mathematically equal to cisgenderism? Do you hide under the covers? That's some pretty cowardly anti-intellectualism. 1) I don't think anybody exists that has 10 fancy degrees. 2) If such a non-existent person actually did exist they would not be involved in any debate on the subject. 3) Should such a person existed, and be paid to speak, he or she would not say something as scientifically ridiculous as the mathematical claim you posed. 4) I don't know who you are asking about that would hide under the covers. 5) Are you asking if a hypothetical person in my #4 would be anti-intellectual, or that my comments are such? Somebody ignoring a paid spokesperson would not qualify. My not accepting the ramblings of somebody with no qualifications, who offers nothing that should be considered intellectual but basically just makes an appeal to emotions certainly is also not anti-intellectualism. Ben Shapiro on the other hand might be guilty of this.
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Post by theoncomingstorm on Aug 3, 2017 11:23:53 GMT
First of all Ben Shapiro is a very irritating speaker that talks way too quickly, so fast that he often stumbles over himself as a result as if he has a speech impediment. But putting that aside, why should anybody pay any attention to what he says on this subject? Is he a biologist? No. Is he a medical doctor? No. Is he a psychologist? No. His metric of using suicide as a basis for mental illness is questionable at best. I would take Justin Bieber's opinion on this subject as seriously as that of Ben Shapiro. Personally I don't have the background to know what is valid or not valid in terms of transgenderism, and I'll bet my ability with science is way ahead of his. What happens when some guy with 10 fancy degrees gets paid to say transgenderism is not mathematically equal to cisgenderism? Do you hide under the covers? That's some pretty cowardly anti-intellectualism. That's a neat trick. Insinuate that someone might do something they have shown no sign of doing and then accuse them of being anti-intellectual based on your evidence-free insinuation.
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Post by clusium on Aug 3, 2017 12:20:44 GMT
Interesting. Do you think it's a mental illness? I don't know. I'm mentally disabled myself (Aspergers'). What do you think?
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Post by Terrapin Station on Aug 3, 2017 12:33:08 GMT
Here are my definitions of
Mental disorders/mental illness:
Relatively (as in statistically) unusual mental processes that regularly prohibit their bearer from functioning as they desire (with respect to what is physically and pragmatically possible), as well as prohibiting or interfering with pragmatic ways of functioning that most people can achieve with respect to going about day-to-day affairs such as preparing meals or otherwise acquiring food, performing a job if necessary, taking care of whatever errands are necessary for the person in question, interacting with others socially, etc.
"Severe" mental disorders/mental illness:
The above, where the disorder/illness affects the individual's behavior to an extent where they can't manage to take care of themselves to remain healthy and/or out of legal trouble and/or they can't manage to not put other persons' health/well-being at risk.
Transgenderism doesn't fit that.
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Post by Terrapin Station on Aug 3, 2017 12:37:21 GMT
Re the comment about cultural attitudes possibly having to do with suicide rates, the only way to test for that is to check suicide rates for transgenders in a completely different culture where transgenderism isn't at all an issue.
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Post by Terrapin Station on Aug 3, 2017 12:52:20 GMT
Other nonsense from Shapiro:
He says, "What's making people suicidal is that this is a mental illness."
Mental illness does not entail that someone is suicidal. So that something is a mental illness wouldn't be sufficient for someone to be suicidal. There would have to be another reason for being suicidal. If he wants to argue that being suicidal is a mental illness he can argue that, but then he'd have to argue that transgenders for some reason tend to have concomitant mental illnesses, and that would need to be explained.
He says, "It is barbaric to suggest that a man can become a woman and a woman a man with a snip of the knife."
Transgenders wouldn't say that a man is becoming a woman or a woman is becoming a man with a snip of the knife. This is related to him not understanding the basics of transgenderism or the distinction between gender and biological sex. With transgenders, a biologically sexed man can be a woman per subjective gender. There's no becoming there. It's already a done deal. The surgery is simply done to change the body to more closely resemble the subjective gender.
"It's horrifying, it's mutilation . . . "
People can change their bodies however they'd like to change them. It's their body to do whatever they'd like with. They can get tattoos, scarification, implant horns, file their teeth, insert lip plates--whatever.
"The idea that theses are women . . . it's utter tripe."
No one is arguing that they're women per biological sex. They're women per subjective gender. If he's going to debate this stuff, he should at least be able to understand the view so that he can present a non-straw man version of it.
"Female brain existing in a male body"
Isn't stating that literally. It's a manner of speaking for someone subjectively feeling that they're female, but in terms of biological sex, they're male.
Anyway, I can add more later, but I doubt many will read and think about what I've already written, so . . .
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Post by OldSamVimes on Aug 3, 2017 12:54:26 GMT
Anyway, I can add more later, but I doubt many will read and think about what I've already written, so . . . I read and thought about it. I normally like Shapiro, but my impulse was to avoid this video. Glad I did, thanks.
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The Lost One
Junior Member
@lostkiera
Posts: 2,677
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Post by The Lost One on Aug 3, 2017 13:08:09 GMT
Transgenders wouldn't say that a man is becoming a woman or a woman is becoming a man with a snip of the knife. A lot of the anti-trans brigade seem to think genital surgery is the only thing involved in the process. Some transpeople never even get the surgery or consider it only of minor importance. Some others only do it because the law where they live requires them to do so to be recognised in their new gender. And some others only do it so they can take fewer hormones.
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Post by The Herald Erjen on Aug 3, 2017 16:56:43 GMT
Interesting. Do you think it's a mental illness? I don't know. I'm mentally disabled myself (Aspergers'). What do you think? I think it's an actual phenomenon that some people are in a body that doesn't match with their gender. However, I also think there are also people who have labeled themselves transgender and are actually not. These people are either lying or they have convinced themselves that they are trans.
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Post by scienceisgod on Aug 3, 2017 21:49:56 GMT
What happens when some guy with 10 fancy degrees gets paid to say transgenderism is not mathematically equal to cisgenderism? Do you hide under the covers? That's some pretty cowardly anti-intellectualism. 1) I don't think anybody exists that has 10 fancy degrees. 2) If such a non-existent person actually did exist they would not be involved in any debate on the subject. 3) Should such a person existed, and be paid to speak, he or she would not say something as scientifically ridiculous as the mathematical claim you posed. 4) I don't know who you are asking about that would hide under the covers. 5) Are you asking if a hypothetical person in my #4 would be anti-intellectual, or that my comments are such? Somebody ignoring a paid spokesperson would not qualify. My not accepting the ramblings of somebody with no qualifications, who offers nothing that should be considered intellectual but basically just makes an appeal to emotions certainly is also not anti-intellectualism. Ben Shapiro on the other hand might be guilty of this. The point is you're advocating blind faith in authority. If Ben Shapiro had a psychology degree, we ought to be scrutinizing him MORE due to obvious conflict on interest, and never under any circumstances decide that we are "unqualified" to reason. Science is a process not a set of beliefs.
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Post by geode on Aug 4, 2017 3:33:45 GMT
1) I don't think anybody exists that has 10 fancy degrees. 2) If such a non-existent person actually did exist they would not be involved in any debate on the subject. 3) Should such a person existed, and be paid to speak, he or she would not say something as scientifically ridiculous as the mathematical claim you posed. 4) I don't know who you are asking about that would hide under the covers. 5) Are you asking if a hypothetical person in my #4 would be anti-intellectual, or that my comments are such? Somebody ignoring a paid spokesperson would not qualify. My not accepting the ramblings of somebody with no qualifications, who offers nothing that should be considered intellectual but basically just makes an appeal to emotions certainly is also not anti-intellectualism. Ben Shapiro on the other hand might be guilty of this. The point is you're advocating blind faith in authority. If Ben Shapiro had a psychology degree, we ought to be scrutinizing him MORE due to obvious conflict on interest, and never under any circumstances decide that we are "unqualified" to reason. Science is a process not a set of beliefs. No, what I was saying is that Ben Shapiro has no background to even give an educated opinion. He is just talking like the lawyer that he is, and is motivated by politics rather than science. I don't see where there is any conflict of interest no matter what Shapiro's academic qualifications. He is in no official position. He can say any looney things he wants to say. The problem is that he is not really using the human gift of reason, at least not very well. He just makes a claim that transgenderism is a mental illness, based upon his own definitions. He is only arguing his beliefs, not using science.
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