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Post by Jayman on Oct 30, 2017 22:23:36 GMT
Deep down everybody always knew it was a work, but they didn't know how things were done so it was easier to suspend disbelief in many aspects of it. Even though most people know how things are done now I believe it still should be presented in a serious way.
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Post by PreachCaleb on Oct 31, 2017 18:41:59 GMT
I don't know what that means. Also, I don't care if intergender ever goes mainstream or not. I just don't think the words pro wrestling and realistic go together. Wrestling is right in the name! When pro wrestling is at it's best people think what's happening is real when it's not. That's the art of it. You're not going to do that with intergender wrestling. Guys on here talk about Chyna but that was a nice side show attraction. Stuff like that doesn't draw long term. Actually, when pro wrestling is at its best, people believe in the story, not that it's real. Movies at their best don't make people think what's happening is real. And again, Lucha Underground shows that fans will by into intergender matches when presented with the proper booking. As they do with any match. Why do you think Rey Mysterio could defeat Kevin Nash and have fans cheer for it? Because they thought it was real?
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Post by MooseNugget on Oct 31, 2017 18:48:12 GMT
Wrestling is right in the name! When pro wrestling is at it's best people think what's happening is real when it's not. That's the art of it. You're not going to do that with intergender wrestling. Guys on here talk about Chyna but that was a nice side show attraction. Stuff like that doesn't draw long term. Actually, when pro wrestling is at its best, people believe in the story, not that it's real. Movies at their best don't make people think what's happening is real. And again, Lucha Underground shows that fans will by into intergender matches when presented with the proper booking. As they do with any match. Why do you think Rey Mysterio could defeat Kevin Nash and have fans cheer for it? Because they thought it was real? That would never happen in WWE and the match wouldn't take place in New Japan Pro Wrestling. It might have been something inept writer Vince Russo would try to do.
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Post by Jayman on Oct 31, 2017 19:31:57 GMT
That's an interesting debate we're having here. There is no denying that wrestling was the most successful ever before people knew things they weren't supposed to know. The best that can be done now is to at least present it in a serious way so that it keeps people in the moment rather than have it exposed right in their faces all the time. That's my opinion. I can't speak to Lucha Underground and how they present or book inter gender matches, but nothing will ever convince me that that should be done or that it is a good thing. But I respect everybody's view here, you're all serious fans and that's a good thing
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Post by PreachCaleb on Oct 31, 2017 20:20:01 GMT
That's an interesting debate we're having here. There is no denying that wrestling was the most successful ever before people knew things they weren't supposed to know. The best that can be done now is to at least present it in a serious way so that it keeps people in the moment rather than have it exposed right in their faces all the time. That's my opinion. I can't speak to Lucha Underground and how they present or book inter gender matches, but nothing will ever convince me that that should be done or that it is a good thing. Here's the thing, Hogan at his peak drew more than Stone Cold at his peak. But Stone Cold drew way more on a consistent weekly basis than Hogan did. And that was long after the cat had been let out of the bag. Heck, McMahon let the cat out of the bag in the 80s too. People knowing it's a work hasn't really affected it all that much. What affects it is whether the fans buy into the stories and characters. Not whether they think it's real. As I've said, if Black Widow can beat up a room full of body guards or alien monsters, then there's no problem with a female wrestler holding her own against one male opponent. Heck, True Romance showed how it can also work with Patricia Arquette vs James Gandolfini.
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Post by taylorfirst1 on Oct 31, 2017 20:31:52 GMT
Ok, come on guys. No one over the age of 7 needed Vince McMahon to tell them that wrestling was fake. Everyone knew it was fake it was blatantly obvious to everyone with open eyes. I knew from the time I was about 7 and that was back in the early 70's.
But even before that everyone knew it. In the movie "Abbott and Costello in the Foreign Legion" (1950!) the boys played pro wrestling managers and there is a scene where they are rehearsing matches and deciding the outcomes. No one thought anything of it. I could list other examples too.
I'm a life long wrestling fan and I don't think anyone needs to believe it is real to enjoy the show.
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Post by Jayman on Oct 31, 2017 20:36:00 GMT
You make a compelling argument, that's why I enjoy these discussions here. That is true what you say about Steve Austin drawing all that money and Hogan drawing all that money after it was exposed. I have my thoughts on the 90's era and all that, but that's for another discussion. There were a lot of factors. but there are less people making a living in wrestling than ever before, less fans watching, and less fans going to live events than ever. So by every measure I believe wrestling was the most successful before it was exposed. The WWF may have been able to thrive, but not the industry. But I am in complete agreement about how fans buying into a character affects business and how the fans react to it. Which is also why I think it should be presented in a serious way so people can buy into the product as a whole. Nobody will think it's real again, but that goes back to what I said about keeping people in the moment. As far as the inter gender stuff, we'll never be on the same page there. I just don't like it and never will. Regardless of how many women there are that can kick a man's ass
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Post by Jayman on Oct 31, 2017 20:42:12 GMT
Ok, come on guys. No one over the age of 7 needed Vince McMahon to tell them that wrestling was fake. Everyone knew it was fake it was blatantly obvious to everyone with open eyes. I knew from the time I was about 7 and that was back in the early 70's. But even before that everyone knew it. In the movie "Abbott and Costello in the Foreign Legion" (1950!) the boys played pro wrestling managers and there is a scene where they are rehearsing matches and deciding the outcomes. No one thought anything of it. I could list other examples too. I'm a life long wrestling fan and I don't think anyone needs to believe it is real to enjoy the show. That is true Taylorfirst. But in my view the difference is that people know how things are done now. There was a mystique about it. People thought some of it was real, some of it wasn't, and they had no idea how everything was done.
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Post by taylorfirst1 on Oct 31, 2017 20:56:40 GMT
You make a compelling argument, that's why I enjoy these discussions here. That is true what you say about Steve Austin drawing all that money and Hogan drawing all that money after it was exposed. I have my thoughts on the 90's era and all that, but that's for another discussion. There were a lot of factors. but there are less people making a living in wrestling than ever before, less fans watching, and less fans going to live events than ever. So by every measure I believe wrestling was the most successful before it was exposed. The WWF may have been able to thrive, but not the industry. But I am in complete agreement about how fans buying into a character affects business and how the fans react to it. Which is also why I think it should be presented in a serious way so people can buy into the product as a whole. Nobody will think it's real again, but that goes back to what I said about keeping people in the moment. As far as the inter gender stuff, we'll never be on the same page there. I just don't like it and never will. Regardless of how many women there are that can kick a man's ass As I stated earlier, I don't care about the intergender stuff one way or the other. I do want to address your valid point about the numbers. I think the lower audience numbers have more to do with the explosion in entertainment alternatives than with believability or mystique. It's the same reason that broadcast TV viewing numbers are much lower than they used to be. I am heartened by the fact that the WWE has some of the highest rated shows on cable. Also, there are at least 3 other pro wrestling organizations that I can watch every week on my cable system.
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Post by Jayman on Oct 31, 2017 21:07:01 GMT
You make a compelling argument, that's why I enjoy these discussions here. That is true what you say about Steve Austin drawing all that money and Hogan drawing all that money after it was exposed. I have my thoughts on the 90's era and all that, but that's for another discussion. There were a lot of factors. but there are less people making a living in wrestling than ever before, less fans watching, and less fans going to live events than ever. So by every measure I believe wrestling was the most successful before it was exposed. The WWF may have been able to thrive, but not the industry. But I am in complete agreement about how fans buying into a character affects business and how the fans react to it. Which is also why I think it should be presented in a serious way so people can buy into the product as a whole. Nobody will think it's real again, but that goes back to what I said about keeping people in the moment. As far as the inter gender stuff, we'll never be on the same page there. I just don't like it and never will. Regardless of how many women there are that can kick a man's ass As I stated earlier, I don't care about the intergender stuff one way or the other. I do want to address your valid point about the numbers. I think the lower audience numbers have more to do with the explosion in entertainment alternatives than with believability or mystique. It's the same reason that broadcast TV viewing numbers are much lower than they used to be. I am heartened by the fact that the WWE has some of the highest rated shows on cable. Also, there are at least 3 other pro wrestling organizations that I can watch every week on my cable system. Oh that was in response to preachcaleb sorry about that. But that is true about the explosion in entertainment alternatives. When wrestling thrived the most was when most people only got 10 channels. But it is amazing when you think about the fact that there were over 30 full time territories thriving with guys making a living and now there's basically 1. Also keep in mind all they were selling was wrestling shows. No big major corporations and marketing machines and big time advertisers. Just advertising a wrestling show in your town. There will always be alternatives and other wrestling companies, but not running full time every night of the week. That's where I see the major difference. So it's true, that one company maybe a billion dollar monster machine, but it's still just one big company.
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Post by PreachCaleb on Oct 31, 2017 21:56:18 GMT
You make a compelling argument, that's why I enjoy these discussions here. That is true what you say about Steve Austin drawing all that money and Hogan drawing all that money after it was exposed. I have my thoughts on the 90's era and all that, but that's for another discussion. There were a lot of factors. but there are less people making a living in wrestling than ever before, less fans watching, and less fans going to live events than ever. So by every measure I believe wrestling was the most successful before it was exposed. The WWF may have been able to thrive, but not the industry. But I am in complete agreement about how fans buying into a character affects business and how the fans react to it. Which is also why I think it should be presented in a serious way so people can buy into the product as a whole. Nobody will think it's real again, but that goes back to what I said about keeping people in the moment. As far as the inter gender stuff, we'll never be on the same page there. I just don't like it and never will. Regardless of how many women there are that can kick a man's ass I do have to disagree about the industry not thriving. There is a lot of good money to made on the independent scene. The Young Bucks and Kenny Omega turned down the WWE because of it. Cody Rhodes is doing very well financially. True, not everyone can be those guys, but I know plenty of guys who make a good living doing independent wrestling full time. The WWE may not be the juggernaut it once was, but the indy is seeing a great resurgence. Heck, two guys I know very well were on Smackdown against the Ascension a few years back. It got them more exposure and bookings. I get that you don't dig the intergender stuff. Not everything is for everyone. I've never been a fan of the Death Matches or CZW's hardcore stuff.
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Post by Jayman on Oct 31, 2017 22:09:57 GMT
It is true there are a certain amount of guys that established themselves that can make money on the indy scene. I just think for every 1 of those guys there's a thousand others that don't make it. There's plenty of guys out there breaking in but very few get in a position to make money. There's no place to work every single night and really develop. Guys are just lucky to get booked on the weekends
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Post by PreachCaleb on Oct 31, 2017 22:12:13 GMT
But that was always true of the industry. It's not something new.
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Post by Jayman on Oct 31, 2017 22:26:35 GMT
It really wasn't though. If you got your foot in the door in one of any 1 of the 30 territories, you can work every night even in the first match and still make a living. And if you didn't get your foot in the door in one of those territories there was still a 2nd tier of outlaw groups that guys could work in on a regular basis. Even if the guys couldn't get in on any of those, you still had your smaller outlaw and indy groups that ran on the weekends where guys could gain some experience and get a little bit of money. Even half those job guys you'd see get squashed on tv would be able to work the smaller outlaw groups and make some money. The ones that couldn't were the really bad job guys that weren't trained properly and were barely good enough to cut it as a tv job guy. Only those guys were the ones that just got in on the weekend indy shows like guys do now. Now there's thousands of very talented guys on the indy scene that will never make a living in wrestling
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Post by PreachCaleb on Oct 31, 2017 22:40:25 GMT
That's pretty much the independent scene right now. As I said, I know guys who've been squashed on tv and then go on to another "territory" no different than the 2nd tier outlaw groups.
All the vets have discussed their experiences with traveling night after night to different territories and different shows. That's the independent scene right now. That's always been the nature of the business. Drive around to get booked and earn money.
Those talented guys on the indy scene are making a living in wrestling by keeping up the very same traditions that were around during the territory days.
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Post by Jayman on Oct 31, 2017 22:49:11 GMT
That's pretty much the independent scene right now. As I said, I know guys who've been squashed on tv and then go on to another "territory" no different than the 2nd tier outlaw groups. All the vets have discussed their experiences with traveling night after night to different territories and different shows. That's the independent scene right now. That's always been the nature of the business. Drive around to get booked and earn money. Those talented guys on the indy scene are making a living in wrestling by keeping up the very same traditions that were around during the territory days. Yeah but there are no full time territories. It depends on which veterans you speak of. The problem is that indies basically run on the weekends with most guys basically just getting enough money for gas to make it to and from the show they're working on. And that's if they can get booked every weekend. That's different from working every night and getting a paycheck. I'm not saying everybody was making this great living, I just mean that there was about 100 times more chances to get yourself in a position to make money if you had that ability. The same traditions aren't there anymore because they're not on the road every night going from town to town working different crowds. They're working in whatever indy they can get booked on on the weekends. That would be closer to the 3rd tier of that time. But the difference is now that the first tier is only one company instead of 30 so the chances are greatly reduced. Except for the select guys you mentioned that have established themselves
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Post by PreachCaleb on Nov 1, 2017 13:17:48 GMT
Actually, there are full time territories. They're just not called that. There are independent companies that do weekly shows and some that do shows several times a week. Some even with local tv exposure. Indy wrestlers have a great advantage the guys of days gone by didn't: social media. Many of them promote themselves, their shows, and even sell their own merch on social media and earn a living through that. They're smarter about it than the weekend warriors.
The veterans I speak of are pretty much anyone who came up in wrestling up to the late 90's. Going as far back as the 50's. Everyone from Ric Flair and Dusty Rhodes up to Stone Cold and Chris Jericho have talked about how they had to hit the road every night and travel hundreds of miles to make gas money. Mic Foley wrote a whole book about it.
I know plenty of guys who do keep up those traditions and are in fact on the road every night or every other night.
And let's not forget: a lot of those 3rd and even 2nd tier guys, even in the past, usually still had another means of financial support. There wasn't a lot of money in pro wrestling unless you were a big star or you worked every night. The same still applies today as it did in the past.
There is no lack of opportunities to make money in wrestling. Sure if you only work weekends you can't really make a living, but that applies to every job.
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Post by Jayman on Nov 1, 2017 14:17:35 GMT
Well yeah, I'm aware of the veterans that that hit the road every night from town to town. That's what they did. Jericho, Austin, and cactus, are examples of guys that caught the very tail end of the era where guys did it. I just don't see how there's any denying of the fact that the amount of guys making a living just wrestling alone compared to 35 plus years ago is a fraction of a fraction. There has never been a time in the history of wrestling that there were less opportunities to make money in wrestling than there are now. I am not aware of any groups today that run multiple shows per week outside of like an OVW or a couple of groups like that. Indy shows during the week is a money losing proposition for most, that's why most promotors won't do it unless they can only get a building for a certain night or something like that. Can you give me a link to any of these groups that run several times per week? I'm looking for some current wrestling that I can actually enjoy. Territories at the time ran a minimum of 300 shows per year. Some ran over 500. Most indy companies run 10-12 shows per year.
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Post by PreachCaleb on Nov 1, 2017 15:05:35 GMT
Well, I have to ask: what are the numbers, figures, or data? Otherwise, it's just speculation with no actual evidence. Especially since even back 35 years ago, few guys made a living just wrestling alone either.
Bingo. Not every company does it, but some do. Territories ran so many shows because they traveled around to different cities, which is what independent wrestlers do now. The only difference is it's no longer under the umbrella of one promoter. They're free to work different cities with different companies.
The trick is traveling. As it always has been. Jericho, Austin, and Foley did catch the tail end, but it's made a resurgence. To make a living in independent wrestling, it's still about traveling to as many shows and cities as possible. Just like it always has been. That never changed. That's one of the few holdovers from the territory days. If you want to make a living, you have to hit the road.
If you truly are interested in independent wrestling, check out Facebook where you live. As I mentioned, social media is a great promotional tool for companies and the wrestlers themselves.
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Post by Jayman on Nov 1, 2017 16:11:17 GMT
Well the numbers being that if there were approximately 30 territories running every night with each with a crew of about 20 or 25 guys that's about 750-800 guys making a living strictly wrestling in America compared to now with just the wwe running full time with a crew of 50 or so with maybe a dozen or several dozen established Indy guys that can make a full time living wrestling and selling gimmicks or can get a japan deal that's a big difference. They worked 6 nights a week so they weren't getting a side job. From 2001-2012 I went to over 400 independent shows all around New York, New Jersey, Ct, and pa and only the one star in the main event made a living in wrestling. None of them ran during the week. None of them could afford to take road trips down south for some random show that ran during the week because it was almost non existent. The guys that could get a lot of bookings worked whatever indies they could on Friday and Saturday which is all there is. Maybe theretsome more in the south that run more but it's really not that different out there. While you can hit the road and find some random show someplace during the week, unless you're an established name, the promoter is not going to pay you enough to cover your travel or hotel. But if something has changed and there's more groups out there that run on weeknights in some areas that's great. You can hit a lot of cities but if they're all on the weekends you may as well stay in your own area or you're just going to lose a lot of money. The key being your name has to be established if you're really hitting the road. If you're not going to put more asses in seats then you're of no use to any promoter so they don't need to book you or pay you much
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