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Post by ThatGuy on Oct 31, 2017 1:18:02 GMT
Ahh. As a huge Spider Woman fan I respectfully disagree with you about Jessica Drew/Spider Woman being a clone. To quote a post I made before “for one, Jessica Drew is a full grown woman, not a teenage boy like Peter Parker and she is a former solider, highly skilled combat expert who is experienced in boxing, judo, karate, and capoeira and a deadly assassin trained by the Taskmaster and Hydra. Jessica is more of an antihero and has a history of killing people going back to her first series in the late 70s and in her most recent series was a private investigator and a Mum. Her origin as Spider Woman is completely different than the way Spider-Man got his powers which was from experimentation and she has different powers than Spider-Man which don’t include web swinging but include things like flying, super speed, stamina, agility, reflexes, super hearing and smell, super strength (she can life a house above her head), venom blasts which can pierce solid metals like steel and can kill people like a lightning bolt and pheromone secretion. She also has the the ability to control spiders in some series and is resistant to pain.
Another thing that separates Spider Woman from Spider-Man is Spider-Man is dependent on having his superpowers and is pretty useless without them. Spider-Woman doesn’t need her powers to take down villains as and villains who thought making her lose her powers would lead to her demise have been in for rude surprises when she still beat them and all their goons. Without her powers Jessica is on the same level as the Birds of Prey as fighters. I think a lot of people who have never read Spider Woman comics are going to be in for a big surprise over how different the two characters actually are. 'Venom' and SpiderGwen have far more similarities to Spider-Man than Spider Woman and we have never had a movie like Spider Woman before.”Yeah. Jessica Drew and Peter Parker couldn't be more different and for people who were disappointed they went with a younger Spider-Man in 'Homecoming' you will have an adult in 'Spider Woman.' All that begs the question...why call her "Spider-Woman"? Because I can do all that with "Dare-Girl" and "He-Storm". I'll make Dare-Girl a deaf woman who lost her hearing in a car accident. The loss of her hearing resulted in a latent gene giving her the ability to read minds and influence emotional responses in other people.. She worked for the UN as a translator until losing her hearing. Now she works as a congressional aid, putting her powers to use as an undercover agent. She of course underwent training. Easy.... So why not make Spider-Woman unique? I like how the X-men did it with female characters. All new characters not related to any previous male character. Storm, Rogue, Shadowcat, Phoenix, Mystique...I lose count of the great female characters. Spider-Woman is in that family of clones like Batgirl, She-Hulk, Supergirl, Hawkgirl, Robin, War Machine, Speedy, Kid Flash, etc. Spider-woman was actually a rights grab. Because both Marvel and DC were snatching up names that the other studio might use for their characters, Marvel made the gender bent one of Spider-man before DC could. Oh and you are too late on creating Dare-Girl the deaf version of Daredevil. Meet Echo... Also, Mystique is the female version of Changeling who later went by the name Morph.
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Post by ThatGuy on Oct 31, 2017 1:26:44 GMT
Sony scares me without Marvel input. Hard to imagine they won't screw a lot of this up. Plus all the clone characters are unoriginal. Spider-Woman, Carnage, She-Venom, Spider-Man 2099. I could come up with those characters in 10 seconds. Just take an existing character and change the gender or race and you're done. How creative. Dare-Girl, He-Storm...I can do that all day. Lazy "writing". Ahh. As a huge Spider Woman fan I respectfully disagree with you about Jessica Drew/Spider Woman being a clone. To quote a post I made before “for one, Jessica Drew is a full grown woman, not a teenage boy like Peter Parker and she is a former solider, highly skilled combat expert who is experienced in boxing, judo, karate, and capoeira and a deadly assassin trained by the Taskmaster and Hydra. Jessica is more of an antihero and has a history of killing people going back to her first series in the late 70s and in her most recent series was a private investigator and a Mum. Her origin as Spider Woman is completely different than the way Spider-Man got his powers which was from experimentation and she has different powers than Spider-Man which don’t include web swinging but include things like flying, super speed, stamina, agility, reflexes, super hearing and smell, super strength (she can life a house above her head), venom blasts which can pierce solid metals like steel and can kill people like a lightning bolt and pheromone secretion. She also has the the ability to control spiders in some series and is resistant to pain.
Another thing that separates Spider Woman from Spider-Man is Spider-Man is dependent on having his superpowers and is pretty useless without them. Spider-Woman doesn’t need her powers to take down villains as and villains who thought making her lose her powers would lead to her demise have been in for rude surprises when she still beat them and all their goons. Without her powers Jessica is on the same level as the Birds of Prey as fighters. I think a lot of people who have never read Spider Woman comics are going to be in for a big surprise over how different the two characters actually are. 'Venom' and SpiderGwen have far more similarities to Spider-Man than Spider Woman and we have never had a movie like Spider Woman before.”Yeah. Jessica Drew and Peter Parker couldn't be more different and for people who were disappointed they went with a younger Spider-Man in 'Homecoming' you will have an adult in 'Spider Woman.' About that... Ultimate Spider Woman (Jessica Drew) was a literal clone of Ultimate Spider-man. Unmasked they had to draw a female Peter Parker. That's why her hair is brown and not black. Also, does Sony have the rights to Spider Woman? She's not exactly a Spider-man character. She just shares a name like his. It's like saying Iron Fist is an Iron Man character.
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Post by harpospoke on Oct 31, 2017 4:14:21 GMT
All that begs the question...why call her "Spider-Woman"? Because I can do all that with "Dare-Girl" and "He-Storm". I'll make Dare-Girl a deaf woman who lost her hearing in a car accident. The loss of her hearing resulted in a latent gene giving her the ability to read minds and influence emotional responses in other people.. She worked for the UN as a translator until losing her hearing. Now she works as a congressional aid, putting her powers to use as an undercover agent. She of course underwent training. Easy.... So why not make Spider-Woman unique? I like how the X-men did it with female characters. All new characters not related to any previous male character. Storm, Rogue, Shadowcat, Phoenix, Mystique...I lose count of the great female characters. Spider-Woman is in that family of clones like Batgirl, She-Hulk, Supergirl, Hawkgirl, Robin, War Machine, Speedy, Kid Flash, etc. Spider-woman was actually a rights grab. Because both Marvel and DC were snatching up names that the other studio might use for their characters, Marvel made the gender bent one of Spider-man before DC could. Oh and you are too late on creating Dare-Girl the deaf version of Daredevil. Meet Echo...Also, Mystique is the female version of Changeling who later went by the name Morph. Now that's what they should have done with Spider-Woman. Give her a name that belongs to just her. I can never take characters with names like that serious. I guess I get why they wanted to "protect the name" in a certain sense. ...But the problem for me is they were saving the name they should not have ever even wanted to use. It would be like me hording a carton of ice cream flavor I don't even like. If DC used it....it would be seen as a rip-off immediately and make them look bad. I know Marvel got away with it with Captain Marvel...probably because there is no gender there and the original Captain Marvel may have faded from popularity at that point. There is no way DC could pull off copying the name of the most popular character on the planet though.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 31, 2017 12:47:33 GMT
All that begs the question...why call her "Spider-Woman"? Because I can do all that with "Dare-Girl" and "He-Storm". I'll make Dare-Girl a deaf woman who lost her hearing in a car accident. The loss of her hearing resulted in a latent gene giving her the ability to read minds and influence emotional responses in other people.. She worked for the UN as a translator until losing her hearing. Now she works as a congressional aid, putting her powers to use as an undercover agent. She of course underwent training. Easy.... So why not make Spider-Woman unique? I like how the X-men did it with female characters. All new characters not related to any previous male character. Storm, Rogue, Shadowcat, Phoenix, Mystique...I lose count of the great female characters. Spider-Woman is in that family of clones like Batgirl, She-Hulk, Supergirl, Hawkgirl, Robin, War Machine, Speedy, Kid Flash, etc. I kinda think you are forgetting one minor detail and that is Spider-Man is not an original superhero or character either and is a clone of Tarantula, the Spider and the original Spider Woman. Tarantula debuted in the 1940s under Star Spangled Comics and he could walk on walls and ceilings and shoot out web strands from a gun which he used to capture villains and swing from building to building on his adventures. Tarantula is even called Spider Man in the comic books by people but he prefers the name, Tarantula. Then we have the ‘Spider’ (Tom Holloway) who debuted in the 40s too and drove a car called the Black Widow and had villains like Yogi, the Crow, Yellow Scorpion, Black Goblin, Falcon, the Vulture, Weasel, the Rhino and Doctor Fish – sound familiar? And last but not least, the original Spider Woman who was a character from mythology.
The original ‘Spider Woman’ is featured in African, Japanese, South American and Roman mythology in a number of different interpretations. She was used as the basis of the Spider Goddess in the Tara Moss novel of the same name, the movie ‘I Spit on Your Grave’ and the Spider Witch character in the ‘Ghostbusters (2009) video game. What is interesting is her story varies from country to country but one that stands out the most is the tale of a woman who is murdered in a house full of spiders and is bought back to life to exact revenge on her killers and she comes back with spiderlike abilities which match a lot of the same abilities Spider-Woman and Spider-Woman have in the comics. Jessica Drew has abilities that are more similar to the original Spider Woman than Spider-Man and Tarantula and she was created by Archie Goodwin who named her after his daughter before Stan Lee wanted them to use the Spider Woman name to prevent DC from having a Spider Woman under the name 'Venom' which was later used for another character as we all know.
There is no such thing as an original superhero especially under DC and Marvel. Captain America is a copy of the Shield (where Hydra also came from), Shazam is a copy of Superman and Fawcett Comics got sued over it, Aquaman is a clone of Namor, X Men are a copy of the Doom Patrol, Green Arrow is a copy of Robin Hood, the Incredible Hulk is a copy of Dr Jekyl/Mr Hyde, Thor is a copy of Thor from mythology, Black Cat is a copy of the Black Cat from the 1940s, Sheena: Queen of the Jungle, Shanna the She Devil and Tarzan were copies of Rima the Jungle Girl, the Flash is a copy of Superman, Blade is a copy of Vampirella, Cyborg is a copy of Robotman (Doom Patrol) and was originally meant to be an advanced version of Robotman called Robotman 3 and Superman is a copy of multiple characters from mythology and his ability to fly was copied from Peter Pan. None of them are original.
That being said saying Dick Grayson and Barbara Gordon are copy of Bruce Wayne is just like saying Batman is a copy of the Phantom and other non-powered superheroes that came before him ‘cause both Dick and Barbara have completely different backgrounds, personalities and fighting styles. The difference between Bruce and Dick’s fighting styles is like the difference between Sylvester Stallone and Jackie Chan and Dick is more into gymnastics and martial arts. Dick Grayson is also a lighter type of character who jokes around and mocks villains as Robin and Nightwing much like Spider-Man who was created after him and is known for his relationships with Batgirl, Supergirl, Starfire, the Huntress and Wonder Girl among other female superheroes while Barbara Gordon/Batgirl is the daughter of the police commissioner, Jim Gordon and takes up fighting crime under the name Batgirl after being inspired by Batman, preventing a criminal from escaping by herself when she was 14 and saving the people in Gotham when there was a big flood and Batman was away.
Barbara Gordon started fighting crime as Batgirl when she was only a teenager and she was crippled by the Joker and spent years in a wheelchair as Oracle before she was cured in her 20s and she took on the mantle of Batgirl for a second time as an adult. Barbara is a genius with computers, has a love for motorcycles, is highly skilled at martial arts and unlike Bruce Wayne and Dick Grayson who had Alfred and Luscious Fox to create everything for them Barbara makes her own costumes and creates her own gadgets. Her parents also weren’t killed and she became Batgirl ‘cause she wanted to help people and fight crime after being inspired by her Father and Batman. Both Barbara Gordon and Dick Grayson started off as Batman’s sidekicks but went on to have their own series due to their popularity and outsold a lot of other superheroes who couldn’t hold onto their own series.
Supergirl (Kara) was created to be a female counterpart to Superman but Supergirl (Linda Danvers) was a completely different story. Linda Danvers was a former drug addict and a member of a demonic cult that killed people and sacrificed them to demons and when her ex, Buzz and the rest of the cult turned on her and tried to sacrifice her the Matrix saved her by merging with Linda Danvers and making her the new Supergirl. In the Linda Danvers series Supergirl fights witches, demons, vampires, monsters, aliens, werewolves and even Lucifer to redeem her darkened soul. Her powers included the ability to shapeshift, heal people, teleport, shoot psionic blasts and see the last few seconds of a person’s life by looking into their eyes. She also had Wings of flame when she became the Earth Born Angel of Fire there was a constant battle of good and evil inside of her and at times you didn’t know if she was going to save people or wipe everybody out.
When Peter David created Linda Danvers he went to DC with the idea of a series called ‘Fallen Angel’ which later become the name of the unofficial continuation series while DC liked the idea thought it was too dark and violent and told him if he toned it down they would make Fallen Angel the next Supergirl. Kid Flash was a clone of the Flash. I agree with you on that but Barry Allen was a clone of Jay Garrick (the original Flash) and Kid Flash at least got his own name much like Impulse (Bart Allen) later. None of them are original or unique. I am not saying that is a bad thing but the creators just took ideas from other superheroes and made them their own just like Stan Lee did with Tarantula, the Spider and Spider Woman for Spider-Man. Spider Woman (Jessica Drew) is Marvel's second biggest selling female superhero below Carol Danvers (Ms Marvel and Captain Marvel) and many of us fans have been waiting AGES to see her in her own movie so this is a great day for all of us.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 31, 2017 12:50:09 GMT
Ultimate Spider Woman (Jessica Drew) was a literal clone of Ultimate Spider-man. Unmasked they had to draw a female Peter Parker. That's why her hair is brown and not black. Also, does Sony have the rights to Spider Woman? She's not exactly a Spider-man character. She just shares a name like his. It's like saying Iron Fist is an Iron Man character. Yes. When Sony bought the film rights to Spider-Man they also bought the film rights to Spider Woman so no other film company could make a movie of her at the same time they were making Spider-Man movies. Sam Rami was going to make a Spider Woman (Jessica Drew) movie when he was making the Spider-Man movies but he quit when Sony wouldn’t give him extra time to go back and make changes to the ‘Spider-Man 4’ script which resulted in Tobey and Kirsten also quitting the Spider-Man franchise.
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Post by sostie on Oct 31, 2017 13:16:08 GMT
Ultimate Spider Woman (Jessica Drew) was a literal clone of Ultimate Spider-man. Unmasked they had to draw a female Peter Parker. That's why her hair is brown and not black. Also, does Sony have the rights to Spider Woman? She's not exactly a Spider-man character. She just shares a name like his. It's like saying Iron Fist is an Iron Man character. Yes. When Sony bought the film rights to Spider-Man they also bought the film rights to Spider Woman so no other film company could make a movie of her at the same time they were making Spider-Man movies. Sam Rami was going to make a Spider Woman (Jessica Drew) movie when he was making the Spider-Man movies but he quit when Sony wouldn’t give him extra time to go back and make changes to the ‘Spider-Man 4’ script which resulted in Tobey and Kirsten also quitting the Spider-Man franchise. I read somewhere a while back that Sony only have the rights to the name "Spider-Woman" (ironic considering the reason Spider-Woman was created), but not Jessica Drew and her abilities.
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Post by harpospoke on Oct 31, 2017 15:28:34 GMT
All that begs the question...why call her "Spider-Woman"? Because I can do all that with "Dare-Girl" and "He-Storm". I'll make Dare-Girl a deaf woman who lost her hearing in a car accident. The loss of her hearing resulted in a latent gene giving her the ability to read minds and influence emotional responses in other people.. She worked for the UN as a translator until losing her hearing. Now she works as a congressional aid, putting her powers to use as an undercover agent. She of course underwent training. Easy.... So why not make Spider-Woman unique? I like how the X-men did it with female characters. All new characters not related to any previous male character. Storm, Rogue, Shadowcat, Phoenix, Mystique...I lose count of the great female characters. Spider-Woman is in that family of clones like Batgirl, She-Hulk, Supergirl, Hawkgirl, Robin, War Machine, Speedy, Kid Flash, etc. I kinda think you are forgetting one minor detail and that is Spider-Man is not an original superhero or character either and is a clone of Tarantula, the Spider and the original Spider Woman. Tarantula debuted in the 1940s under Star Spangled Comics and he could walk on walls and ceilings and shoot out web strands from a gun which he used to capture villains and swing from building to building on his adventures. Tarantula is even called Spider Man in the comic books by people but he prefers the name, Tarantula. Then we have the ‘Spider’ (Tom Holloway) who debuted in the 40s too and drove a car called the Black Widow and had villains like Yogi, the Crow, Yellow Scorpion, Black Goblin, Falcon, the Vulture, Weasel, the Rhino and Doctor Fish – sound familiar? And last but not least, the original Spider Woman who was a character from mythology.
The original ‘Spider Woman’ is featured in African, Japanese, South American and Roman mythology in a number of different interpretations. She was used as the basis of the Spider Goddess in the Tara Moss novel of the same name, the movie ‘I Spit on Your Grave’ and the Spider Witch character in the ‘Ghostbusters (2009) video game. What is interesting is her story varies from country to country but one that stands out the most is the tale of a woman who is murdered in a house full of spiders and is bought back to life to exact revenge on her killers and she comes back with spiderlike abilities which match a lot of the same abilities Spider-Woman and Spider-Woman have in the comics. Jessica Drew has abilities that are more similar to the original Spider Woman than Spider-Man and Tarantula and she was created by Archie Goodwin who named her after his daughter before Stan Lee wanted them to use the Spider Woman name to prevent DC from having a Spider Woman under the name 'Venom' which was later used for another character as we all know.Pretty big difference there. First, characters like Spider-Woman, Batgirl, Robin, Supergirl, She-Hulk, War Machine only exist because of the original characters. They are a direct reaction to the existence of the original characters. I go back to my Dare-Girl and He-Storm examples. That's not me being creative. That's me latching onto an existing character and just changing a few things to make it "different". But we all know why Dare-Girl and He-Storm exist. And I know why Robin, Supergirl, Spider-Woman, Hawkgirl, Batgirl, War Machine, and She-Hulk exist. They changed a few details here and there, but it's still not some bolt of inspiration. In the Spider-Woman case the entire motivation was to keep the name. It wasn't an organic inspiration. "Venom" would have been a fantastic name for her. But "Spider-Woman"? She's never going to be her own character on the same level as Storm and Phoenix. Not the mention the huge difference in a character you have to Google to even be aware of and one of the most popular characters on the planet. No offense to Tarantula...but...who? If I came up with "Batgirl" today I wouldn't be seen as being an original creator. Or since last summer was the summer of Wonder Woman...how about if I came up with "Wonder Man" by a huge coincidence today? (Marvel already pulled that one and he was a deservedly failed character) I could change various things about them and claim "They are original characters!"....anyone buying that? They didn't call Spider-Man "Tarantula-Man" like they did with Spider-Woman, Captain Marvel and Wonder Man....I know exactly what was going on with those characters. And Marvel could have actually done that....would it be a big deal? Who would have remembered Tarantula? Writers reusing an obscure story that didn't catch on is one thing...reusing Romeo and Juliet or Gone with the Wind is something else. But Stan Lee actually used a different name too to give his character originality. There is no such thing as an original superhero especially under DC and Marvel. Captain America is a copy of the Shield (where Hydra also came from), Shazam is a copy of Superman and Fawcett Comics got sued over it, Aquaman is a clone of Namor, X Men are a copy of the Doom Patrol, Green Arrow is a copy of Robin Hood, the Incredible Hulk is a copy of Dr Jekyl/Mr Hyde, Thor is a copy of Thor from mythology, Black Cat is a copy of the Black Cat from the 1940s, Sheena: Queen of the Jungle, Shanna the She Devil and Tarzan were copies of Rima the Jungle Girl, the Flash is a copy of Superman, Blade is a copy of Vampirella, Cyborg is a copy of Robotman (Doom Patrol) and was originally meant to be an advanced version of Robotman called Robotman 3 and Superman is a copy of multiple characters from mythology and his ability to fly was copied from Peter Pan. None of them are original. That is mixing up inspiration with outright cloning of an existing character. And they aren't even shy about it with Spider-Woman, Batgirl, War Machine, Wonder Girl, Speedy, She-Hulk, etc. Being inspired by Dr Jekyl and Mr Hyde is quite a different thing than just copying an existing character to create a sidekick or to "save a name". Just put some effort into it. I could write lots of stories for Dare-Girl and He-Storm that were different than the stories of Daredevil and Storm...but why didn't I do that from the beginning instead of piggy backing onto the popularity of an existing character?
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Post by ThatGuy on Oct 31, 2017 21:04:31 GMT
I kinda think you are forgetting one minor detail and that is Spider-Man is not an original superhero or character either and is a clone of Tarantula, the Spider and the original Spider Woman. Tarantula debuted in the 1940s under Star Spangled Comics and he could walk on walls and ceilings and shoot out web strands from a gun which he used to capture villains and swing from building to building on his adventures. Tarantula is even called Spider Man in the comic books by people but he prefers the name, Tarantula. Then we have the ‘Spider’ (Tom Holloway) who debuted in the 40s too and drove a car called the Black Widow and had villains like Yogi, the Crow, Yellow Scorpion, Black Goblin, Falcon, the Vulture, Weasel, the Rhino and Doctor Fish – sound familiar? And last but not least, the original Spider Woman who was a character from mythology.
The original ‘Spider Woman’ is featured in African, Japanese, South American and Roman mythology in a number of different interpretations. She was used as the basis of the Spider Goddess in the Tara Moss novel of the same name, the movie ‘I Spit on Your Grave’ and the Spider Witch character in the ‘Ghostbusters (2009) video game. What is interesting is her story varies from country to country but one that stands out the most is the tale of a woman who is murdered in a house full of spiders and is bought back to life to exact revenge on her killers and she comes back with spiderlike abilities which match a lot of the same abilities Spider-Woman and Spider-Woman have in the comics. Jessica Drew has abilities that are more similar to the original Spider Woman than Spider-Man and Tarantula and she was created by Archie Goodwin who named her after his daughter before Stan Lee wanted them to use the Spider Woman name to prevent DC from having a Spider Woman under the name 'Venom' which was later used for another character as we all know. Pretty big difference there. First, characters like Spider-Woman, Batgirl, Robin, Supergirl, She-Hulk, War Machine only exist because of the original characters. They are a direct reaction to the existence of the original characters. I go back to my Dare-Girl and He-Storm examples. That's not me being creative. That's me latching onto an existing character and just changing a few things to make it "different". But we all know why Dare-Girl and He-Storm exist. And I know why Robin, Supergirl, Spider-Woman, Hawkgirl, Batgirl, War Machine, and She-Hulk exist. They changed a few details here and there, but it's still not some bolt of inspiration. In the Spider-Woman case the entire motivation was to keep the name. It wasn't an organic inspiration. "Venom" would have been a fantastic name for her. But "Spider-Woman"? She's never going to be her own character on the same level as Storm and Phoenix. Not the mention the huge difference in a character you have to Google to even be aware of and one of the most popular characters on the planet. No offense to Tarantula...but...who? If I came up with "Batgirl" today I wouldn't be seen as being an original creator. Or since last summer was the summer of Wonder Woman...how about if I came up with "Wonder Man" by a huge coincidence today? (Marvel already pulled that one and he was a deservedly failed character) I could change various things about them and claim "They are original characters!"....anyone buying that? They didn't call Spider-Man "Tarantula-Man" like they did with Spider-Woman, Captain Marvel and Wonder Man....I know exactly what was going on with those characters. And Marvel could have actually done that....would it be a big deal? Who would have remembered Tarantula? Writers reusing an obscure story that didn't catch on is one thing...reusing Romeo and Juliet or Gone with the Wind is something else. But Stan Lee actually used a different name too to give his character originality. There is no such thing as an original superhero especially under DC and Marvel. Captain America is a copy of the Shield (where Hydra also came from), Shazam is a copy of Superman and Fawcett Comics got sued over it, Aquaman is a clone of Namor, X Men are a copy of the Doom Patrol, Green Arrow is a copy of Robin Hood, the Incredible Hulk is a copy of Dr Jekyl/Mr Hyde, Thor is a copy of Thor from mythology, Black Cat is a copy of the Black Cat from the 1940s, Sheena: Queen of the Jungle, Shanna the She Devil and Tarzan were copies of Rima the Jungle Girl, the Flash is a copy of Superman, Blade is a copy of Vampirella, Cyborg is a copy of Robotman (Doom Patrol) and was originally meant to be an advanced version of Robotman called Robotman 3 and Superman is a copy of multiple characters from mythology and his ability to fly was copied from Peter Pan. None of them are original. That is mixing up inspiration with outright cloning of an existing character. And they aren't even shy about it with Spider-Woman, Batgirl, War Machine, Wonder Girl, Speedy, She-Hulk, etc. Being inspired by Dr Jekyl and Mr Hyde is quite a different thing than just copying an existing character to create a sidekick or to "save a name". Just put some effort into it. I could write lots of stories for Dare-Girl and He-Storm that were different than the stories of Daredevil and Storm...but why didn't I do that from the beginning instead of piggy backing onto the popularity of an existing character? Because piggy backing off the character is the point. Most of those characters are legacy characters. Meant to pass on a mantle. Others are just meant to grow on that character (most of the gender bent ones like Supergirl and Batgirl/woman). The reason you don't get gender bent names from characters in X-men is because the team is the important part. And there is nothing to pass down. You might get powers that are passed down from father to daughter (or mother to son), but it's rare. But there are times in X-men when a name is reused like Thunderbird, Wolverine, Marvel Girl and Phoenix.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 1, 2017 5:07:43 GMT
Pretty big difference there. First, characters like Spider-Woman, Batgirl, Robin, Supergirl, She-Hulk, War Machine only exist because of the original characters. They are a direct reaction to the existence of the original characters. I go back to my Dare-Girl and He-Storm examples. That's not me being creative. That's me latching onto an existing character and just changing a few things to make it "different". But we all know why Dare-Girl and He-Storm exist. And I know why Robin, Supergirl, Spider-Woman, Hawkgirl, Batgirl, War Machine, and She-Hulk exist. They changed a few details here and there, but it's still not some bolt of inspiration. In the Spider-Woman case the entire motivation was to keep the name. It wasn't an organic inspiration. "Venom" would have been a fantastic name for her. But "Spider-Woman"? She's never going to be her own character on the same level as Storm and Phoenix. Not the mention the huge difference in a character you have to Google to even be aware of and one of the most popular characters on the planet. No offense to Tarantula...but...who? If I came up with "Batgirl" today I wouldn't be seen as being an original creator. Or since last summer was the summer of Wonder Woman...how about if I came up with "Wonder Man" by a huge coincidence today? (Marvel already pulled that one and he was a deservedly failed character) I could change various things about them and claim "They are original characters!"....anyone buying that? They didn't call Spider-Man "Tarantula-Man" like they did with Spider-Woman, Captain Marvel and Wonder Man....I know exactly what was going on with those characters. And Marvel could have actually done that....would it be a big deal? Who would have remembered Tarantula? Writers reusing an obscure story that didn't catch on is one thing...reusing Romeo and Juliet or Gone with the Wind is something else. But Stan Lee actually used a different name too to give his character originality. There is no such thing as an original superhero especially under DC and Marvel. Captain America is a copy of the Shield (where Hydra also came from), Shazam is a copy of Superman and Fawcett Comics got sued over it, Aquaman is a clone of Namor, X Men are a copy of the Doom Patrol, Green Arrow is a copy of Robin Hood, the Incredible Hulk is a copy of Dr Jekyl/Mr Hyde, Thor is a copy of Thor from mythology, Black Cat is a copy of the Black Cat from the 1940s, Sheena: Queen of the Jungle, Shanna the She Devil and Tarzan were copies of Rima the Jungle Girl, the Flash is a copy of Superman, Blade is a copy of Vampirella, Cyborg is a copy of Robotman (Doom Patrol) and was originally meant to be an advanced version of Robotman called Robotman 3 and Superman is a copy of multiple characters from mythology and his ability to fly was copied from Peter Pan. None of them are original. That is mixing up inspiration with outright cloning of an existing character. And they aren't even shy about it with Spider-Woman, Batgirl, War Machine, Wonder Girl, Speedy, She-Hulk, etc. Being inspired by Dr Jekyl and Mr Hyde is quite a different thing than just copying an existing character to create a sidekick or to "save a name". Just put some effort into it. I could write lots of stories for Dare-Girl and He-Storm that were different than the stories of Daredevil and Storm...but why didn't I do that from the beginning instead of piggy backing onto the popularity of an existing character? I think you are confusing the terms ‘spinoff’ and ‘side’ characters with clone characters with Barbara Gordon and Dick Grayson. Batman has a large team which consists of Batgirl, Nightwing, the Spoiler, Orphan, Bluebird, Clayface, Batwoman, Red Robin, Red Hood, Flamebird/Hawkfire etc and all of the characters were created with the intentions of only being Batman’s sidekicks but become so popular it lead to them having their own series and leading their own teams like Batgirl with the Birds of Prey and Nightwing with the Teen Titans. I don’t see the majority of them as being clones of Bruce Wayne especially when a lot of them have their own personalities, different fighting styles and background stories – not to mention some of them have superpowers like Clayface who can shapeshift and turn into a huge clay monster and Flamebird/Hawkfire who can fly – both things Bruce Wayne has never been able to do so I guess we will have to agree to disagree.
I don’t see Nightwing spinning off ‘Batman’ being any different than Angel spinning off 'Buffy the Vampire Slayer' and 'the Darkness' spinning off ‘Witchblade’ and saying that Batman’s side characters and team are all clones of Batman is like saying Angel, Willow, Xander, Cordelia, Spike and Giles are all clones of ‘Buffy’ ‘cause they started out in the same series. Buffy and Angel have just as much in common as Bruce Wayne and Dick Grayson as characters and regardless of starting out in other series Batgirl and Nightwing are two of the biggest selling superheroes of all time. Dick Grayson as Robin, Nightwing and Grayson has higher all time sales than all the Avengers and Justice League aside from Batman, Superman, Captain America and Wonder Woman and Batgirl is the third biggest selling female superhero of all time and if these characters were only clones of Batman why do so many people buy their series and why is it that a lot of people were buying Batman comic books to see what Bat Family members were in them which is the reason we have Batgirl, Nightwing, Birds of Prey, Teen Titans, Batwoman, Red Hood and the Outlaws, We Are Robin, Harley Quinn, Catwoman etc comic books making up a large percentage of DC’s sales.
The funny thing about ‘Teen Titans’ is up until the additions of characters such as Raven, Starfire and Cyborg it started out as a series of all the sidekicks and Teen Titans is DC’s biggest selling team series with higher sales than the Justice League so are you saying more people want to see the clones of all the other superheroes or is there something different there with those characters that draws people to them – the same way it has to Spider Woman ‘cause people could choose to only buy Spider-Man but Spider-Woman became the second biggest selling Marvel female superhero and one of Marvel’s biggest selling superheroes in the 70s ‘cause people liked Jessica Drew. There are a lot of people that like the Bat Family characters more than Batman as people working at DC have even admitted and said if it wasn’t for the popularity of those characters Batman wouldn’t have lasted this long. Many new comic book readers would not know Nightwing is connected to Batman since Dick doesn’t use the Robin name anymore and we have yet to see Dick as Nightwing in the movies or TV shows yet ‘Nightwing’ is still one of the biggest selling superheroes of all time. I know people who bought Nightwing comics without even knowing he was connected to Batman and liked him.
‘Witchblade’ did the same thing as Batman with the ‘Witchblade’ universe spinning off series such as the Darkness, Aphrodite IX, the Magdalena, the Necromancer, Ravine, Switch, the Angelus, Artifacts, IXth Generation and I don’t think being spinoff series makes them clones. The Punisher spunoff from ‘Spider-Man’, ‘Black Panther’ spunoff ‘The Fantastic Four’, ‘Lobo’ spunoff ‘Superman’, ‘Cyborg’ spun-off ‘Teen Titans’, ‘Constantine’ spunoff ‘Swamp Thing’, ‘Hawkman’, ‘Hawkgirl’ and ‘The Black Canary’ spunoff ‘The Flash’, ‘Sabrina the Teenage Witch’ spunoff ‘Archie’ (and most people didn’t even know she was from Archie when the TV show was on) and Deadpool spunoff ‘The New Mutants’ and I wouldn't say they are clones either. Barry Allen and Wally West were replacements for Jay Garrick. With ‘Supergirl’ it was the ‘Supergirl/ Linda Danvers’ series by Peter David that ultimately become the biggest selling and longest running series of ‘Supergirl’ of all time and if Supergirl’s series is all ‘cause of Superman why is it Linda was a far more popular and successful character than Kara ‘cause she was completely different than not only Superman but any character in DC before her? Linda was also far more powerful than Superman in the latter issues when she had her powers fully restored and was the Earth Born Angel of Fire. The Linda Danvers series continued as ‘Fallen Angel’ under IDW and every time DC use Linda Danvers just like they are now re-releasing all of the comic books in graphic novel form Peter David gets paid for it.
The Linda Danvers/Supergirl series is the last time DC created a new series with a brand new character that was successful and all of the new superheroes under DC and Marvel that have been successful have debuted in other series such as Batman and Spider-Man. Batgirl taking the mantle of Bat after the superhero that inspired was the same as Kamala Khan taking ‘Ms Marvel’ after being inspired by the original Ms Marvel, Carol Danvers. The last 2 successful unique series in comic books were ‘Witchblade’ and ‘Spawn’ under Image Comics and both outsold the majority of DC and Marvel superheroes between 1995-2015 but Image Comics are known for making unique series and Image Comics, IDW, Action Lab, Dynamite Entertainment, Broadsword, Boundless Comics, Bubble Comics, Zenescope etc have all had far more success with original unique series than DC and Marvel have had for decades while DC and Marvel’s only line of success has been using characters that have existed for decades or spinning off characters from other series. While I am a fan of DC and Marvel both companies have been piggybacking on the success of characters made by writers decades ago – many of which are dead and retired.
Without those characters both would have been slaughtered by companies like Image Comics in the 90s and 00s since none of their writers in the past 20 years have been able to create anything near as popular as ‘Spawn’ or ‘Witchblade’ or even ‘Hack/Slash’, ‘Darkchylde’,‘The Walking Dead’ and ‘Saga’ for that matter. In saying that, I am looking forward to seeing 'Batgirl' and 'Nightwing' movies and Bat Family members like the Spoiler, Orphan and Red Robin on screen for the very first time as Geoff said and I do believe with their sales and popularity they are far more deserving than any of the other superheroes regardless of being spinoff characters or not so I respectfully have to agree to disagree but have enjoyed talking to you.
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