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Post by Lord Death Man on Nov 8, 2017 14:12:09 GMT
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Post by Hauntedknight87 on Nov 8, 2017 14:30:10 GMT
Good on you Mr Feige. Wish the fanboys on this site acted more like you, rather than be cuckholds to these companies.
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Post by lenlenlen1 on Nov 8, 2017 15:57:21 GMT
Well, actually it's what I do. I've seen ALL the movies from BOTH Marvel AND DC in theatres. And I enjoy them both.
My peeve on these threads hasn't been that one is better than the other, but rather that there seem to be some, on both sides, that think ONLY one can be better than the other. Which is nonsense.
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Post by Lord Death Man on Nov 8, 2017 16:03:13 GMT
Well, actually it's what I do. I've seen ALL the movies from BOTH Marvel AND DC in theatres. And I enjoy them both.
My peeve on these threads hasn't been that one is better than the other, but rather that there seem to be some, on both sides, that think ONLY one can be better than the other. Which is nonsense.
I agree but, for me personally, one is better than the other. It's okay to have a preference and be enthusiastic about it. I watch Marvel movies because I grew up with those characters and relate to them more readily. DC films are an interesting diversion but, I don't have any strong love or hate from them. |
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Post by ThatGuy on Nov 8, 2017 16:11:09 GMT
Well, actually it's what I do. I've seen ALL the movies from BOTH Marvel AND DC in theatres. And I enjoy them both.
My peeve on these threads hasn't been that one is better than the other, but rather that there seem to be some, on both sides, that think ONLY one can be better than the other. Which is nonsense.
For me it's not that one is better than the other (at the core), but that one needs to git gud. |
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Post by ThatGuy on Nov 8, 2017 16:24:19 GMT
Good on you Mr Feige. Wish the fanboys on this site acted more like you, rather than be cuckholds to these companies. It's all well and good, but the only people that see rivalries are the ones that think that people don't like what they like or criticize it. You get this on both sides. I mean it's to the point if you said you didn't like Steel when it came out, then you are a MCU fanboy. |
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Post by lenlenlen1 on Nov 8, 2017 18:24:34 GMT
Good on you Mr Feige. Wish the fanboys on this site acted more like you, rather than be cuckholds to these companies. It's all well and good, but the only people that see rivalries are the ones that think that people don't like what they like or criticize it. You get this on both sides. I mean it's to the point if you said you didn't like Steel when it came out, then you are a MCU fanboy. That's not completely accurate. When someone comes out against a movie that is SO god awful as Steel, that's just someone coming out against a bad movie. If all the criticisms were of that type I wouldn't have a problem with it. I've often acknowledged that Batman v Superman was a problematic movie (as much as I love it) and that the better of the two movies was Civil War.
But the criticisms against BvS were almost always accompanied by how bad DCEU movies are in general and how much better Marvel movies are. Its the idea that that, as a "shared universe" series of movies, one is better simply because of its from said comic book company. Which is utter nonsense. If all Marvel movies were better just by din of being a Marvel movie then they would all make 400 million dollars each and triple that worldwide. We all know that hasn't been the case.
Also, I know that the venom spewed out against DC isn't just about the movies alone. I remember when I was kid and I started collecting comics, I thought all comics were the same; I knew there were different companies, but a comic is a comic. Until I started talking to the other kids and I would hear "I don't read DC", "I don't collect DC". Even then. Even as a kid.
Somewhere along the line (the 60's ?) Marvel captured the idea that they were the cooler comic book company (because they were newer?) and DC didn't catch up until the late 70's/early 80's. But once they did catch up (and they did ) it was too late. The impression that they're the older, less cool company was cemented; the damage already done. And I honestly believe that's spilled over to the movies too.
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Post by ThatGuy on Nov 8, 2017 20:16:01 GMT
It's all well and good, but the only people that see rivalries are the ones that think that people don't like what they like or criticize it. You get this on both sides. I mean it's to the point if you said you didn't like Steel when it came out, then you are a MCU fanboy. That's not completely accurate. When someone comes out against a movie that is SO god awful as Steel, that's just someone coming out against a bad movie. If all the criticisms were of that type I wouldn't have a problem with it. I've often acknowledged that Batman v Superman was a problematic movie (as much as I love it) and that the better of the two movies was Civil War.
But the criticisms against BvS were almost always accompanied by how bad DCEU movies are in general and how much better Marvel movies are. Its the idea that that, as a "shared universe" series of movies, one is better simply because of its from said comic book company. Which is utter nonsense. If all Marvel movies were better just by din of being a Marvel movie then they would all make 400 million dollars each and triple that worldwide. We all know that hasn't been the case.
Also, I know that the venom spewed out against DC isn't just about the movies alone. I remember when I was kid and I started collecting comics, I thought all comics were the same; I knew there were different companies, but a comic is a comic. Until I started talking to the other kids and I would hear "I don't read DC", "I don't collect DC". Even then. Even as a kid.
Somewhere along the line (the 60's ?) Marvel captured the idea that they were the cooler comic book company (because they were newer?) and DC didn't catch up until the late 70's/early 80's. But once they did catch up (and they did ) it was too late. The impression that they're the older, less cool company was cemented; the damage already done. And I honestly believe that's spilled over to the movies too.
I just used Steel as an example as being an older movie before the MCU. I get called an MCU fanboy for not liking Spider-man 2 or X2 when they came out. I think the shared universe stuff might come from Marvel having more experience. DC wants but doesn't know how to get there. Because, yeah, DC is really having a hard time at it. Wouldn't BvS being bad because the DCEU is bad be a valid complaint? It is the second movie in the series. I can see if BvS was like the 4th or 5th movie and the complaint was that it is bad because it's connected to the DCEU. That would be wrong. Or if they are saying because they think Suicide Squad was bad so BvS is bad too. That's going a bit too far. But if a person says, from the stand point of only Man of Steel and BvS, that BvS is bad because the DCEU is bad that's a different story. As long as there are 2 or more things that are close to the same, there will be rivalries between companies. Marvel started doing real people with powers. DC was more fantasy and mythological with their characters. Superheroes before they were people. I think most people identified with regular people with powers more than superheroes among us. |
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Post by ArArArchStanton on Nov 8, 2017 20:23:32 GMT
Good on you Mr Feige. Wish the fanboys on this site acted more like you, rather than be cuckholds to these companies. There's no H in cuckold. |
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Post by DSDSquared on Nov 8, 2017 20:28:39 GMT
His point is the exact reason I like the MCU so much better. I do enjoy awesome movies and the DCEU just has not made them. That is the difference.
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Post by ArArArchStanton on Nov 8, 2017 20:29:20 GMT
Well, actually it's what I do. I've seen ALL the movies from BOTH Marvel AND DC in theatres. And I enjoy them both.
My peeve on these threads hasn't been that one is better than the other, but rather that there seem to be some, on both sides, that think ONLY one can be better than the other. Which is nonsense.
I would actually say the perception of some is to assume that if somebody does prefer one over the other, then that person must be biased.
I think I have well founded reasons for concluding that Marvel is the superior brand, but that is not the same thing as saying DC can't make a good film, just that they haven't. Hell, I'll gladly say I loved the first 2 Nolan batman films. The thing that annoys me about DC is how they approach the films like Fox might have with the Fantastic Four back in the 2000's, where they're just spitballing plots as they go and there's no real commitment to anything. If they aren't committed, then why would I be as a fan? Marvel on the other hand, is clearly committed, and I'm with them on the journey. There's a path that is being walked. DC has no path. It's just meandering around aimlessly. That's how I would describe why I have the stance that I do.
Being unbiased doesn't mean liking both. It just means being objective.
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Post by lenlenlen1 on Nov 8, 2017 20:34:42 GMT
Somewhere along the line (the 60's ?) Marvel captured the idea that they were the cooler comic book company (because they were newer?) and DC didn't catch up until the late 70's/early 80's. But once they did catch up (and they did ) it was too late. The impression that they're the older, less cool company was cemented; the damage already done. And I honestly believe that's spilled over to the movies too.
I just used Steel as an example as being an older movie before the MCU. I get called an MCU fanboy for not liking Spider-man 2 or X2 when they came out. I think the shared universe stuff might come from Marvel having more experience. DC wants but doesn't know how to get there. Because, yeah, DC is really having a hard time at it. Wouldn't BvS being bad because the DCEU is bad be a valid complaint? It is the second movie in the series. I can see if BvS was like the 4th or 5th movie and the complaint was that it is bad because it's connected to the DCEU. That would be wrong. Or if they are saying because they think Suicide Squad was bad so BvS is bad too. That's going a bit too far. But if a person says, from the stand point of only Man of Steel and BvS, that BvS is bad because the DCEU is bad that's a different story. As long as there are 2 or more things that are close to the same, there will be rivalries between companies. Marvel started doing real people with powers. DC was more fantasy and mythological with their characters. Superheroes before they were people. I think most people identified with regular people with powers more than superheroes among us. We can go back and forth forever on the other stuff, but lets address this last statement:
Marvel started doing real people with powers. DC was more fantasy and mythological with their characters. Superheroes before they were people. I think most people identified with regular people with powers more than superheroes among us.
That's true. I don't deny that. In the 60's when Marvel first became the Marvel we now know (Fantastic Four, Spiderman, etc.) they must have seemed like a quantum leap forward in storytelling. Everything was more bombastic while at the same time being (relatively speaking) more realistic - as you say "regular people with powers more than superheroes among us."
But that changed where now its the norm in ALL comics. DC has also come to adopt that style since that's what ALL writers and artists do in comics nowadays, and have since the late 70's early 80's.
That being the case, why is there still this idea that DC is the older, out of touch company, and Marvel the younger hipper one? And at this point they're both old anyway, so why the persistent notion?
If anything, in the last few decades its been DC who has been at the forefront of new innovation: The Prestige Format comic, The separate but related imprint (Vertigo), Crisis on Infinite Earths, Ronin, Watchmen, Dark Knight Returns, Sandman, Preacher, weekly comics, Geoff Johns Green Lantern run, The New 52 (which wasn't to everyones liking, but you gotta admit - ballsy move!) and now Rebirth - which is better than any initiative Marvel has done in quite some time. All this and not to mention the fact that they share creators, writers and artists with Marvel all the time!
The persistent notion that DC is lesser is just irrational to me. You can say you don't like a particular character, but a whole company? Doesn't make sense.
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Post by ArArArchStanton on Nov 8, 2017 20:48:44 GMT
That being the case, why is there still this idea that DC is the older, out of touch company, and Marvel the younger hipper one?
I could try to explain this, but think of it in simple terms like why Apple is the most hip cell phone and other companies try to copy them. In many many ways, Marvel is just ahead of the curve and DC hasn't been. Marvel always feels fresh and new, and when they have to change to modernize they hit the right balance while respecting their own material. It just feels smart. And too often DC feels like K-Mart or Sears. |
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Post by Lord Death Man on Nov 8, 2017 20:53:26 GMT
I just used Steel as an example as being an older movie before the MCU. I get called an MCU fanboy for not liking Spider-man 2 or X2 when they came out. I think the shared universe stuff might come from Marvel having more experience. DC wants but doesn't know how to get there. Because, yeah, DC is really having a hard time at it. Wouldn't BvS being bad because the DCEU is bad be a valid complaint? It is the second movie in the series. I can see if BvS was like the 4th or 5th movie and the complaint was that it is bad because it's connected to the DCEU. That would be wrong. Or if they are saying because they think Suicide Squad was bad so BvS is bad too. That's going a bit too far. But if a person says, from the stand point of only Man of Steel and BvS, that BvS is bad because the DCEU is bad that's a different story. As long as there are 2 or more things that are close to the same, there will be rivalries between companies. Marvel started doing real people with powers. DC was more fantasy and mythological with their characters. Superheroes before they were people. I think most people identified with regular people with powers more than superheroes among us. But that changed where now its the norm in ALL comics. DC has also come to adopt that style since that's what ALL writers and artists do in comics nowadays, and have since the late 70's early 80's.
That being the case, why is there still this idea that DC is the older, out of touch company, and Marvel the younger hipper one? And at this point they're both old anyway, so why the persistent notion?
DC is definitely at the forefront right now regarding publishing. Marvel, sadly, is lagging behind severely because they have poor leadership in that division. The last time they had innovative product on the stands was the early 2000s with New X-Men. That said, DC mainstream characters still read like the Grecko-Roman pantheon of ancient gods. You're meant to worship them and not to relate to them. That mode of thinking is severely outdated - and even offensive to modern readers. Marvel's claims to relatability still resonate despite the fact that they aren't earning that reputation right now. |
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Post by damngumby on Nov 8, 2017 20:55:56 GMT
How could that be when BvS was only the 2nd DCEU movie? Granted, MoS got worse reviews than the lowest ranked MCU movie, but it wasn't terrible.
After the one two punch of BvS and Suicide Squad is when DCEU's reputation really cratered.
WW was a step in a better direction, but it remains to be seen if it is the beginning of a trend or not.
Respectable reviews for JL will silence many of the DC critics. Middling or poor reviews will just reinforce the notion that WW was an outlier and DC really is bush league compared to Marvel.
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Post by Nalkarj on Nov 8, 2017 21:05:57 GMT
Lord Death Man said: I can't understand this. (And sorry to play the pedant, but Greco doesn't have a k in it. Our British, Australian, and Canadian friends would put an a in it, though-- Graeco.) What is outdated in this context (I'm with Mikef6 in believing that nothing is "outdated"), and how in God's name is it offensive? Would it logically hold, then, that every classicist is offended by what he studies? I'm truly having difficulty with this--not to mention its subjectivity, as I've always "connected" more with Superman (in all his godliness) than Spiderman (though I don't dislike the latter), but that's neither here nor there. Anyhoo, the points lenlenlen1 brought up reminded me of a dichotomy Andrew Sarris raised in his seminal work The American Cinema: Orson Welles, he writes, emphasizes the ordinary thoughts of extraordinary people, whereas Alfred Hitchcock emphasizes the extraordinary thoughts of ordinary people. Perhaps a similar dichotomy exists here, though I'm having difficulty with articulating it.
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Post by Lord Death Man on Nov 8, 2017 21:49:06 GMT
Lord Death Man said: I can't understand this. (And sorry to play the pedant, but Greco doesn't have a k in it. Our British, Australian, and Canadian friends would put an a in it, though-- Graeco.) What is outdated in this context (I'm with Mikef6 in believing that nothing is "outdated"), and how in God's name is it offensive? Would it logically hold, then, that every classicist is offended by what he studies? I'm truly having difficulty with this--not to mention its subjectivity, as I've always "connected" more with Superman (in all his godliness) than Spiderman (though I don't dislike the latter), but that's neither here nor there. Anyhoo, the points lenlenlen1 brought up reminded me of a dichotomy Andrew Sarris raised in his seminal work The American Cinema: Orson Welles, he writes, emphasizes the ordinary thoughts of extraordinary people, whereas Alfred Hitchcock emphasizes the extraordinary thoughts of ordinary people. Perhaps a similar dichotomy exists here, though I'm having difficulty with articulating it. It seems Lord Death Man needs to brush up on his classics. Hee hee hee... Worshipping god-like beings for favor or protection doesn't line up with the current zeitgeist. The 21st century has seen us perfect new modes of communication. We are rethinking who and what we are from virtual avatars online to gender reassignment right on down to genetic engineering. In this century, we've seen the rise of globalism and witnessed the digital revolution. After a decade of steadily building pre-millennium tension, the cathartic birth cry of this century was the collapsing of the Twin Towers into a heap of concrete, glass, and fire. That was a traumatic event that left people scarred. My point is that people want to feel like they're in control again. They want to feel as if they are the masters of their fate. They don't want to wait for some god-like being to save them. They don't want to feel like the helpless pawns in a struggle between gods, heroes, and monsters - no matter how "epic" that battle may be. The DCEU, for all it claims to grounded modernization, reads like the myths of old and I think, on a subconscious level, people aren't responding to that narrative. We're not the family on that flooded rooftop cradling our children and praying for Super Jesus to rescue us. That family subordinates itself to a god-like entity and looks to him for salvation. In the western world, we're more like the hot dog vendor on the street who sees a superhero on a rooftop and says, "Hey Spider-Man, do a flip!" No one wants the age of heroes to come back. We now see ourselves as the heroes of our own stories. |
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Post by Nalkarj on Nov 8, 2017 23:38:24 GMT
Respectfully, Lord Death Man , this is the assertion with which I most fundamentally disagree. Who is "no one"? By that extension, who are "we [who] see ourselves as the heroes of our own stories"? I certainly wasn't born when the "age of heroes," super- or otherwise, was in its heyday, and I always supported it. I love the myths of old and their heroes; I studied Greco-Roman and Norse (and Celtic, and Aborigine, and American Indian, and...) mythologies from my earliest days, not on someone else's initiative but on my own. Now, my experience is different from many others'--perhaps the majority's--I grant you, but I certainly know many others, also in their '20s or '30s, who were similar to me. We count as "modern" people just as much as anyone else, even if we don't "fit the zeitgeist." And the zeitgeist, may I add, is not always the right way to be: if the clock is going in the wrong direction, the correct thing to do is turn it back, and start it going in the right one. I want the age of heroes to come back. I believe in the classical virtues: honesty, fairness, justice, moderation, decency, love of neighbor and one's fellow man. These are ideals, yes, but that is the point: they represent the better angels of our nature, for which we must strive. A hero like Superman demonstrates that, and thus we can believe, ultimately, than a man can fly. We believe in wonder. So do others, judging from comments on this board and in my real life. And, more than anything, we are "someones," not "no ones." |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 8, 2017 23:49:03 GMT
Respectfully, Lord Death Man , this is the assertion with which I most fundamentally disagree. Who is "no one"? By that extension, who are "we [who] see ourselves as the heroes of our own stories"? I certainly wasn't born when the "age of heroes," super- or otherwise, was in its heyday, and I always supported it. I love the myths of old and their heroes; I studied the subject from my earliest days, not on someone else's initiative but on my own. Now, my experience is different from many others'--perhaps the majority's--I grant you, but I certainly know many others, also in their '20s or '30s, who were similar to me. We count as "modern" people just as much as anyone else, even if we don't "fit the zeitgeist." And the zeitgeist, may I add, is not always the right way to be: if the clock is going in the wrong direction, the correct thing to do is turn it back, and start it going in the right one. I want the age of heroes to come back. I believe in the classical virtues: honesty, fairness, justice, moderation, decency, love of neighbor and one's fellow man. These are ideals, yes, but that is the point: they represent the better angels of our nature, for which we must strive. A hero like Superman demonstrates that, and thus we can believe, ultimately, than a man can fly. We believe in wonder. So do others, judging from comments on this board and in my real life. And, more than anything, we are "someones," not "no ones." This is why I view the current cinematic incarnation of Superman as a failure. He embodies absolutely none of this. |
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Post by Nalkarj on Nov 8, 2017 23:58:20 GMT
@weirdraptor Yes, exactly--I completely agree with you here.  I also think (and, dear God, I'm not trying to reignite these Marvel-DC wars!) that this is an element that Marvel did [does? I'll have to see Ragnarok] very well, especially in the early pictures: Iron Man, Captain America especially, and even (though, as you know, I'm not a fan of it) Thor. There's a lightness and a deftness that is very appealing. Captain America, in particular, loves the very concept of a superhero; Johnston thinks that a hero has a purpose, a meaning, and I find that a wonderful quality. While I don't think Cap was without its flaws, it understands the very essence of Superman far more than Man of Steel ever does. (If I never see Man of Steel again, I'll be perfectly happy.) |
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