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Post by thorshairspray on Nov 27, 2017 14:28:52 GMT
You know, you're not nearly half as clever as you think you are. I said consistently that the demography of a service or company isn't important if the best people are being hired. Maybe if you responded to what I actually say, rather than inventing things, your "gotchas" might have some meaning. I see. So white males just happen to make up 96% of the best people for fire fighting? (Or you'd think the need for change was more urgent.) Got it. It all seems so simple if one explains a largely homogenous workplace away like that. But this really is my last post here, lol
Demonstrate that non white males are being unfairly discriminated against. If not there is no reason to worry over the demography of the workforce. LOL QED
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Post by Marv on Nov 27, 2017 14:42:33 GMT
There's a lot more that need to be taken into consideration than just gender or race. Frankly some jobs draw in particular demographics far more than others do.
For example 91.9% of registered nurses in the US are women. 74.4% of NBA players are black.
Just to give a few examples. I'm not saying bigotry, racism and sexism don't exist. Just that nobody is gonna uncover a convincing argument by only taking the base numbers into consideration.
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Post by thorshairspray on Nov 27, 2017 14:58:05 GMT
There's a lot more that need to be taken into consideration than just gender or race. Frankly some jobs draw in particular demographics far more than others do. For example 91.9% of registered nurses in the US are women. 74.4% of NBA players are black. Just to give a few examples. I'm not saying bigotry, racism and sexism don't exist. Just that nobody is gonna uncover a convincing argument by only taking the base numbers into consideration. I've pointed that out before. But FF refuses to address any of that because for people like him its only a problem when the dominant group is white men. Because their only answer to any problem is "systemic racism/sexism" Thus when a problem is encountered that cannot be explained by that, they just ignore it.
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Post by Marv on Nov 27, 2017 15:05:38 GMT
There's a lot more that need to be taken into consideration than just gender or race. Frankly some jobs draw in particular demographics far more than others do. For example 91.9% of registered nurses in the US are women. 74.4% of NBA players are black. Just to give a few examples. I'm not saying bigotry, racism and sexism don't exist. Just that nobody is gonna uncover a convincing argument by only taking the base numbers into consideration. I've pointed that out before. But FF refuses to address any of that because for people like him its only a problem when the dominant group is white men. Because their only answer to any problem is "systemic racism/sexism" Thus when a problem is encountered that cannot be explained by that, they just ignore it. I meant to preface my post with the fact I haven't read all seven pages of discussion in this thread, so I apologize if what I said was redundant. I'm late to this party.
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Post by CoolJGS☺ on Nov 27, 2017 15:52:02 GMT
I've pointed that out before. But FF refuses to address any of that because for people like him its only a problem when the dominant group is white men. Because their only answer to any problem is "systemic racism/sexism" Thus when a problem is encountered that cannot be explained by that, they just ignore it. I meant to preface my post with the fact I haven't read all seven pages of discussion in this thread, so I apologize if what I said was redundant. I'm late to this party. I've read through a few pages and it's a bit of an odd argument.
The OP seems to think that diversity is a danger to white dudes even if that diversity is a reflection of the community.
It seems that even if white dudes are not the majority & over represent the community they "serve", they are still in jeopardy which should be mathematically impossible.
Admittedly I always have a level of confusion when there's a thread about white dude persecution.
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Post by thorshairspray on Nov 27, 2017 17:34:05 GMT
I meant to preface my post with the fact I haven't read all seven pages of discussion in this thread, so I apologize if what I said was redundant. I'm late to this party. I've read through a few pages and it's a bit of an odd argument.
The OP seems to think that diversity is a danger to white dudes even if that diversity is a reflection of the community.
It seems that even if white dudes are not the majority & over represent the community they "serve", they are still in jeopardy which should be mathematically impossible.
Admittedly I always have a level of confusion when there's a thread about white dude persecution.
Would you consider any move to make the NBA more ethnically representative of America a threat to black basketball players?
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Post by CoolJGS☺ on Nov 27, 2017 17:49:24 GMT
I've read through a few pages and it's a bit of an odd argument.
The OP seems to think that diversity is a danger to white dudes even if that diversity is a reflection of the community.
It seems that even if white dudes are not the majority & over represent the community they "serve", they are still in jeopardy which should be mathematically impossible.
Admittedly I always have a level of confusion when there's a thread about white dude persecution.
Would you consider any move to make the NBA more ethnically representative of America a threat to black basketball players? That's not an accurate comparison since the NBA isn't targeting black players over white ones. They are targeting the ones with the most skills. You started this off with examples of cops and police officers and there is nothing I've seen that would suggest white dudes have some special skill set that makes them better suited then the people that are in the community. Can you?
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Post by thorshairspray on Nov 27, 2017 23:25:07 GMT
Would you consider any move to make the NBA more ethnically representative of America a threat to black basketball players? That's not an accurate comparison since the NBA isn't targeting black players over white ones. They are targeting the ones with the most skills. You started this off with examples of cops and police officers and there is nothing I've seen that would suggest white dudes have some special skill set that makes them better suited then the people that are in the community. Can you? And we have no reason to suspect that the UK Fire Brigade is targeting white people or operating a hiring policy that discriminates against non whites. If the above is true, what is the problem is non white people don't want to be fire fighters?
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Post by cupcakes on Nov 27, 2017 23:51:31 GMT
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Post by CoolJGS☺ on Nov 28, 2017 3:02:38 GMT
That's not an accurate comparison since the NBA isn't targeting black players over white ones. They are targeting the ones with the most skills. You started this off with examples of cops and police officers and there is nothing I've seen that would suggest white dudes have some special skill set that makes them better suited then the people that are in the community. Can you? And we have no reason to suspect that the UK Fire Brigade is targeting white people or operating a hiring policy that discriminates against non whites. If the above is true, what is the problem is non white people don't want to be fire fighters? That doesn't seem like your initial argument. If non-whites don't want to be firefighters, then so be it. However, that still doesn't mean they shouldn't be encouraged to apply which is exactly what steams your noodle imo based on what you chose to quote. Your argument was the notion that diversity removes these officers the right to work. They don't lose that if the only ones that apply are white dudes and thus there is literally no issue. If there are people with identical skill sets in the community, it doesn't make sense to ship white people from other communities to serve there or have them over represented. I can't think of a good reason for this to occur under those circumstances. Can you?
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Post by thorshairspray on Nov 28, 2017 4:28:16 GMT
And we have no reason to suspect that the UK Fire Brigade is targeting white people or operating a hiring policy that discriminates against non whites. If the above is true, what is the problem is non white people don't want to be fire fighters? That doesn't seem like your initial argument. If non-whites don't want to be firefighters, then so be it. However, that still doesn't mean they shouldn't be encouraged to apply which is exactly what steams your noodle imo based on what you chose to quote. Your argument was the notion that diversity removes these officers the right to work. They don't lose that if the only ones that apply are white dudes and thus there is literally no issue. If there are people with identical skill sets in the community, it doesn't make sense to ship white people from other communities to serve there or have them over represented. I can't think of a good reason for this to occur under those circumstances. Can you? Then you either lack reading comprehension or are deliberately misinterpreting what I was saying. I could explain it again, but I don't see any real chance of integrity on your part.
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Post by cupcakes on Nov 28, 2017 5:04:32 GMT
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Post by FilmFlaneur on Nov 28, 2017 10:01:54 GMT
Yeah, there are some bulldykes who can do the job as well as a man. I don't doubt that. .. The standards are being lowered to accommodate women I think words such as this tells me all I need to know about you, if not the fire service, but thanks anyway. When that actually happens, then be sure and come back to me again.
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Post by phludowin on Nov 28, 2017 10:38:13 GMT
I see. So white males just happen to make up 96% of the best people for fire fighting? (Or you'd think the need for change was more urgent.) Got it. It all seems so simple if one explains a largely homogenous workplace away like that. But this really is my last post here, lol
Demonstrate that non white males are being unfairly discriminated against. If not there is no reason to worry over the demography of the workforce. LOL QED Demonstrate that a white man was refused to enter the fire brigade because he was a white man. Unless you can, you don't have a case.
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Post by CoolJGS☺ on Nov 28, 2017 17:24:19 GMT
That doesn't seem like your initial argument. If non-whites don't want to be firefighters, then so be it. However, that still doesn't mean they shouldn't be encouraged to apply which is exactly what steams your noodle imo based on what you chose to quote. Your argument was the notion that diversity removes these officers the right to work. They don't lose that if the only ones that apply are white dudes and thus there is literally no issue. If there are people with identical skill sets in the community, it doesn't make sense to ship white people from other communities to serve there or have them over represented. I can't think of a good reason for this to occur under those circumstances. Can you? Then you either lack reading comprehension or are deliberately misinterpreting what I was saying. I could explain it again, but I don't see any real chance of integrity on your part. How was this misinterpreted?
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Post by FilmFlaneur on Nov 29, 2017 12:15:08 GMT
Rudeness is not an argument. As I said, when a strict 50/50 ratio is required by the state - your term - get back to me when we can discuss whether such an intrusion into a free employment market is too heavy-handed. Even having said that, events in far-flung places don't really concern the UK (and your link doesn't work). As I have previously had to explain to Thor, in the UK positive discrimination is illegal, while positive action is not. I cannot see an issue where, two candidates being of equal merit, one is then chosen over the other on a quota basis. In fact having quotas in place is legal in the UK, whether it be for people from an ethnic minority background at partner level, for women on the management board, or for any other protected characteristic such as age, religion or sexual orientation. And in the States, in Equal Employment Opportunity Commission v. American Telephone and Telegraph Company (1977), a federal appeals court upheld the constitutionality of race and gender-conscious employment quotas in a much-publicized consent decree. This has been the only court decision to touch upon a possible difference in the constitutional analyses of employment quotas for minorities and those for women. I am naturally sorry if you don't like any of this. There will always be those who don't. No need to worry much then - unless it is about Trump's attempt to make the armed forces gay-free, presumably because such shenanigans would be a distraction in the dug-out. And how could anyone limp-wristed be expected to hold up all those heavy fire hoses? Seriously though, in most states in the US the physical training tests for both firefighters and police officers at least have one single standard--i.e. there are no alternate standards for women. The UK fire service outlines its requirements here: www.fireservice.co.uk/recruitment/physical/ Where we read: So, as one might expect, there is no special treatment for women. I hope that helps. 'Lowering of ... standards' is too often just code for 'letting the others in', unfortunately.
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Post by thorshairspray on Dec 4, 2017 12:30:09 GMT
Demonstrate that non white males are being unfairly discriminated against. If not there is no reason to worry over the demography of the workforce. LOL QED Demonstrate that a white man was refused to enter the fire brigade because he was a white man. Unless you can, you don't have a case. How about the BBC? creativeaccess.org.uk/opportunity/trainee-broadcast-journalist/
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Post by thorshairspray on Dec 4, 2017 12:33:05 GMT
Then you either lack reading comprehension or are deliberately misinterpreting what I was saying. I could explain it again, but I don't see any real chance of integrity on your part. How was this misinterpreted? If your stated goal is to increase the "diversity" of a workforce, you will have to reduce the amount of the dominant group you hire based only on their skin colour or gender or whatever.
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Post by thorshairspray on Dec 4, 2017 12:35:09 GMT
Rudeness is not an argument. As I said, when a strict 50/50 ratio is required by the state - your term - get back to me when we can discuss whether such an intrusion into a free employment market is too heavy-handed. Even having said that, events in far-flung places don't really concern the UK (and your link doesn't work). As I have previously had to explain to Thor, in the UK positive discrimination is illegal, while positive action is not. I cannot see an issue where, two candidates being of equal merit, one is then chosen over the other on a quota basis. In fact having quotas in place is legal in the UK, whether it be for people from an ethnic minority background at partner level, for women on the management board, or for any other protected characteristic such as age, religion or sexual orientation. And in the States, in Equal Employment Opportunity Commission v. American Telephone and Telegraph Company (1977), a federal appeals court upheld the constitutionality of race and gender-conscious employment quotas in a much-publicized consent decree. This has been the only court decision to touch upon a possible difference in the constitutional analyses of employment quotas for minorities and those for women. I am naturally sorry if you don't like any of this. There will always be those who don't. No need to worry much then - unless it is about Trump's attempt to make the armed forces gay-free, presumably because such shenanigans would be a distraction in the dug-out. And how could anyone limp-wristed be expected to hold up all those heavy fire hoses? Seriously though, in most states in the US the physical training tests for both firefighters and police officers at least have one single standard--i.e. there are no alternate standards for women. The UK fire service outlines its requirements here: www.fireservice.co.uk/recruitment/physical/ Where we read: So, as one might expect, there is no special treatment for women. I hope that helps. 'Lowering of ... standards' is too often just code for 'letting the others in', unfortunately. Yes, you explained about positive discrimination creativeaccess.org.uk/opportunity/trainee-broadcast-journalist/Hmm....
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Post by phludowin on Dec 4, 2017 14:02:00 GMT
So either the BBC operates the fire brigade, or you have moved the goalposts.
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