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Post by ArArArchStanton on Dec 11, 2017 14:10:46 GMT
Why would it be impossible to top Star Wars? No one has yet mentioned a franchise which been around over 50 years, has a shared Universe and has been a success across the two major visual medias of TV and Cinema...Star Trek. lol touche'. It is legitimately quite the franchise.
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Post by ArArArchStanton on Dec 11, 2017 14:12:17 GMT
It has several competitors doesn't it? Not to mention it's the evolution of a genre that's been going on for over a decade. You're talking about the achievement of creating a shared universe rather than any genre. MCU is an evolution, not a revolution. No other film universe has followed the template of the MCU by making solo films for individual characters then combining it to make a team movie. DCEU is the closest but its all relstivlrelatively new phenomenon. [/p] It matters because you've mentioned the MCU as the greatest cinematic achievement ever. How can something deserving of that title not have even have 1 film that is worthy of being mentioned alongside classics such as Casablanca, Jurassic Park, 2001, The Shawshank Redemption, Alien? They would probably say that the idea itself of an interconnected universe of good films is a great accomplishment, but rewarding it as the best ever cinematic achievement since the inception of the art of cinema is disrespectful to the actual milestone films and projects that have pioneered the industry.
[/quote][/p]
What does other people copying it matter? It's the same achievement whether they do or not.
Pioneering the industry is great, but are ICMB's not the greater achievement to the bow and arrow?
And I don't see why it needs to have a Casablanca, 2001, etc. It's got several notable films already and the sum is greater than the parts.
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Post by ArArArchStanton on Dec 11, 2017 14:20:39 GMT
Why would it be impossible to top Star Wars? Star Wars did things no one had ever seen before on film. It revolutionized sci-fi cinema. It also came at a time when there wasn't as much competition in entertainment media. Star Wars will remain the biggest draw for at least another generation, until the kids who grew up watching MCU films develop the strong nostalgic connection Star Wars fans have now. Then I think we could see a shift, especially if SW keeps rehashing the OT and Marvel keeps introducing new characters. Star wars is a great answer, don't get me wrong, and it may even be the right answer. I just feel like the scope of the MCU is worth noting, and it's actually why Star Wars is doing the spin off films it's doing now. So the MCU has actually influenced Star Wars.
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Post by Rey Kahuka on Dec 11, 2017 14:20:48 GMT
Why would it be impossible to top Star Wars? No one has yet mentioned a franchise which been around over 50 years, has a shared Universe and has been a success across the two major visual medias of TV and Cinema...Star Trek. Which kind of says it all about the franchise's mark on cinema, doesn't it?
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Post by Primemovermithrax Pejorative on Dec 11, 2017 14:27:19 GMT
If we are talking audience enthusiasm and enduring quality then I think a few things are much greater.
Walt Disney's animated films from the 1930s-1960s.
Ray Harryhausen's films from the 50s-early 80s.
The RKO films from the 1930s to 1940. Especially King Kong. When you read up on its history, it is incredible what they achieved and how many FX processes were invented for the film, including the optical printer.
Hammer films from 1955-1975.
Italian cinema of the 1960s.
Due to the social engineering (anti-white) element in MCU movies, I think those other films will keep getting new audiences over time. The MCU movies will become less relevant to western audiences because they are literally manufactured in Wall Street board rooms. Not the best place to make art for the public.
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Post by damngumby on Dec 11, 2017 17:11:04 GMT
No one has yet mentioned a franchise which been around over 50 years, has a shared Universe and has been a success across the two major visual medias of TV and Cinema...Star Trek. Star Trek is just too inconsistent to belong in the upper echelon of cinematic achievement. Some pretty good stuff, some horrendous stuff. The James Bond franchise is the same.
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Post by scabab on Dec 11, 2017 17:28:01 GMT
Why would it be impossible to top Star Wars? It's got way too much going for it that it just can't possibly be topped. There's no movie or movie series or maybe any series period that's more well known around the world than Star Wars. Star Wars A New Hope probably amongst the most watched movies of all time. It couldn't really be any more iconic. The original trilogy are considered some of the greatest movies of all time. One of the greatest trilogies of all time only rivaled by Lord of the Rings. They're amongst the most successful movies ever. After The Last Jedi comes out 5 of the 12 biggest movies of all time domestically will be Star Wars movies. They're amongst the most revolutionary movies ever as Star Wars A New Hope along with Jaws kick started the summer blockbuster. Those two movies completely changed the way movies were made and released. It influenced an entire genre forever. It completely changed the way movie merchandise is handled forever. Pretty much most of the cast of these movies are some of the most famous characters in existence, Luke Skywalker, Han Solo, Princess Leia, Chewbacca, Obi Wan, C3PO, R2D2, Darth Vader, Emperor Palatine and Yoda, everybody knows, also revolutionary characters as well some of them. Nothing else can even really compare to what Star Wars is. As successful as the MCU is, it and every other movie series pale in comparison to what Star Wars has achieved.
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Post by seahawksraawk00 on Dec 11, 2017 19:05:27 GMT
Not a single dud in 17 movies Plenyt of duds. The Incredible Hulk was a dud. So were Captain America: The First Avenger and Thor: The Dark World. So why didn't Wonder Woman make the list for the Golden Globes?? You kept saying it would
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Post by ArArArchStanton on Dec 11, 2017 19:17:07 GMT
Why would it be impossible to top Star Wars? It's got way too much going for it that it just can't possibly be topped. Sure it can. In fact, it's as a direct result of the MCU that Star Wars is expanding like it is. So I'd say the MCU is pretty damn powerful to be leading a series you say it can't top.
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Post by harpospoke on Dec 11, 2017 20:05:50 GMT
The Dark Knight Trilogy has better characters, villains, writing, production design, ambition, cinematography, acting, pacing, and musical scores. The Indiana Jones Trilogy is pretty much the same as above, but I think the MCU has better villains by just a bit. We're not talking about better or worse, It's not an evaluation of acting and cinematography
We're talking about bigger accomplishment,
And TDK and Indiana Jones aren't bigger accomplishments.
It's an impossible question because there really can't be a "#1". We tend to try to rank things in art and that's not possible. The state of film today got there because of countless things happening that many have mentioned. What is the "biggest achievement"? Wouldn't the invention of the movie camera be #1? Everything after that point pales in comparison, right? Sound arrives and then color...pretty big accomplishments. How would you decide what is "more important"? Buster Keaton and Charlie Chaplin helped invent comedy in motion pictures and then the Marx Brothers showed how to do it with sound. But are we just talking about single movies or a series of movies? Not the same thing and not easy to accomplish either. Gone with the Wind might be the single biggest accomplishment with how it endured over several generations as people continued to flock back to theaters to see it decades after it was released. And then it set the all time TV ratings record when it was finally broadcast on TV in the 70s.....about 35 years after it was released. It then set cable TV records in the 80s when Turner made it the first thing broadcast on TNT. (he later used it to launch TCM as well) It was released on home video in 1985...yet actually topped the video sales chart at Amazon as recently as 2015. Star Wars is right up there as well. It changed the world of movie making in the sense of merchandise and the value of sequels. (sequels had happened before, but not on that scale) "Event movies"...that kinda comes from Star Wars with an assist from Jaws. It also brought geek culture into the mainstream and alerted Hollywood to the possibilities in that fan base. Lord of the Rings is a different kind of accomplishment in that it brought a genre like fantasy into the mainstream and Jackson's "film three movies at once" thing was pretty new. Pixar changed animation...big time. It was as original as it gets. Suddenly traditional animation looked old fashioned and stale overnight. If you weren't doing computer animation you were going to have to change that day. Pixar also had a run of 11 fresh RT movies that seemed impossible to match at the time. Marvel also changed the game. A shared universe is suddenly something that everyone wants to do. Their ability to make the public care about obscure characters is pretty amazing. People now know and care about Ant-Man, Dr Strange, Iron Man, Thor, and Guardians of the Galaxy. Marvel even topped Pixar's run of fresh RT movies with their current 17 movie winning streak. In 2008, some claimed that TDK would be the template for how CBMs were made. But of course that didn't happen. Instead it was the Marvel movie that changed the genre. WB is pretty much the only studio that tried to copy TDK and that was a disaster. Marvel changed everything so dramatically that even WB is having to adopt the Marvel method. Which gets into the "accomplishment" part. If it was just as easy as copying Marvel then other studios would be having success too. But as we are finding out, it's not as easy as it looks. We are seeing attempts to copy Marvel fail left and right. You don't think The Avengers is/will be iconic or influential as those films you just mentioned? No, because MCU movies are all forgettable and don't stand the test of time. A decade from now MCU movies will be forgotten. MCU is a lot like Disco in the 1970s. Disco was the hottest thing in America in the late 1970s, but its popularity faded almost as quickly as its rise and now it's pretty much a forgotten era. Same with the MCU. MCU's movies are forgettable and a decade from now MCU movies will be forgotten. Interesting about disco. Some claim it died...but dance music and dance clubs never went away. You can go to a dance club tonight and dance all night to songs designed almost solely to facilitate dancing. They just changed the name from "disco" and "discotheque " to "club music" and "dance club". The joke's on those who hated disco I guess.
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Post by President Ackbar™ on Dec 11, 2017 20:10:17 GMT
I'd like to hear any thoughts on what would be considered a bigger accomplishment. The resume of the MCU is that of a 17 solid film run that has achieved consistent results, raised it's box office value, established global brand trust, earned the purchasing eye of Disney, produced at least a few of the very best films in the genre, become the largest film study in Hollywood, and has become an influence on the entire industry.
Has any cinematic endeavor accomplished more than that? 1.1 Dr. No (1962) 1.2 From Russia with Love (1963) 1.3 Goldfinger (1964) 1.4 Thunderball (1965) 1.5 Casino Royale (1967) 1.6 You Only Live Twice (1967) 1.7 On Her Majesty's Secret Service (1969) 1.8 Diamonds Are Forever (1971) 1.9 Live and Let Die (1973) 1.10 The Man with the Golden Gun (1974) 1.11 The Spy Who Loved Me (1977) 1.12 Moonraker (1979) 1.13 For Your Eyes Only (1981) 1.14 Octopussy (1983) 1.15 Never Say Never Again (1983) 1.16 A View to a Kill (1985) 1.17 The Living Daylights (1987) 1.18 Licence to Kill (1989) 1.19 GoldenEye (1995) 1.20 Tomorrow Never Dies (1997) 1.21 The World Is Not Enough (1999) 1.22 Die Another Day (2002) 1.23 Casino Royale (2006) 1.24 Quantum of Solace (2008) 1.25 Skyfall (2012) 1.26 Spectre (2015)
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Post by harpospoke on Dec 11, 2017 20:15:17 GMT
I'd like to hear any thoughts on what would be considered a bigger accomplishment. The resume of the MCU is that of a 17 solid film run that has achieved consistent results, raised it's box office value, established global brand trust, earned the purchasing eye of Disney, produced at least a few of the very best films in the genre, become the largest film study in Hollywood, and has become an influence on the entire industry.
Has any cinematic endeavor accomplished more than that? 1.1 Dr. No (1962) 1.2 From Russia with Love (1963) 1.3 Goldfinger (1964) 1.4 Thunderball (1965) 1.5 Casino Royale (1967) 1.6 You Only Live Twice (1967) 1.7 On Her Majesty's Secret Service (1969) 1.8 Diamonds Are Forever (1971) 1.9 Live and Let Die (1973) 1.10 The Man with the Golden Gun (1974) 1.11 The Spy Who Loved Me (1977) 1.12 Moonraker (1979) 1.13 For Your Eyes Only (1981) 1.14 Octopussy (1983) 1.15 Never Say Never Again (1983) 1.16 A View to a Kill (1985) 1.17 The Living Daylights (1987) 1.18 Licence to Kill (1989) 1.19 GoldenEye (1995) 1.20 Tomorrow Never Dies (1997) 1.21 The World Is Not Enough (1999) 1.22 Die Another Day (2002) 1.23 Casino Royale (2006) 1.24 Quantum of Solace (2008) 1.25 Skyfall (2012) 1.26 Spectre (2015) They never got more than 5 Fresh in a row though. www.rottentomatoes.com/franchise/james_bond_007/Which shows you just how hard it is to do that. Pixar's run of 11 straight was considered an impossible achievement but now Marvel has 17 in a row.
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Post by scabab on Dec 11, 2017 20:19:22 GMT
Sure it can. In fact, it's as a direct result of the MCU that. Star Wars is expanding like it is. So I'd say the MCU is pretty damn powerful to be leading a series you say it can't top. Star Wars would be big regardless of anything, it's Star Wars. It's popularity has never faded ever since it began. The thing that will hurt the MCU in the long run is that it will be rebooted some day. There will be other portrayals of Iron Man, Captain America and Thor. New versions and new series just like how Batman and Spider-man have had multiple interpretations. The MCU makes good and successful movies but they won't go down in history as some of the best movies ever made or iconic or revolutionary movies. Star Wars is 40 years old and people still talk about it all the time. Will people still remember Doctor Strange and Black Panther in 2056? Not likely, maybe The Avengers but that's about it.
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Post by formersamhmd on Dec 11, 2017 20:45:53 GMT
Sure it can. In fact, it's as a direct result of the MCU that. Star Wars is expanding like it is. So I'd say the MCU is pretty damn powerful to be leading a series you say it can't top. Star Wars would be big regardless of anything, it's Star Wars. It's popularity has never faded ever since it began. The thing that will hurt the MCU in the long run is that it will be rebooted some day. There will be other portrayals of Iron Man, Captain America and Thor. New versions and new series just like how Batman and Spider-man have had multiple interpretations. The MCU makes good and successful movies but they won't go down in history as some of the best movies ever made or iconic or revolutionary movies. Star Wars is 40 years old and people still talk about it all the time. Will people still remember Doctor Strange and Black Panther in 2056? Not likely, maybe The Avengers but that's about it. Eh, only time will tell.
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Post by Skaathar on Dec 11, 2017 20:59:03 GMT
Sure it can. In fact, it's as a direct result of the MCU that. Star Wars is expanding like it is. So I'd say the MCU is pretty damn powerful to be leading a series you say it can't top. Star Wars would be big regardless of anything, it's Star Wars. It's popularity has never faded ever since it began. The thing that will hurt the MCU in the long run is that it will be rebooted some day. There will be other portrayals of Iron Man, Captain America and Thor. New versions and new series just like how Batman and Spider-man have had multiple interpretations. The MCU makes good and successful movies but they won't go down in history as some of the best movies ever made or iconic or revolutionary movies. Star Wars is 40 years old and people still talk about it all the time. Will people still remember Doctor Strange and Black Panther in 2056? Not likely, maybe The Avengers but that's about it. You don't know that dude. Only the children of today can answer that.
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Post by lenlenlen1 on Dec 11, 2017 20:59:46 GMT
I'd like to hear any thoughts on what would be considered a bigger accomplishment. The resume of the MCU is that of a 22 solid film run that has achieved consistent results, raised it's box office value, established global brand trust, earned the purchasing eye of Disney, produced at least a few of the very best films in the genre, become the largest film study in Hollywood, and has become an influence on the entire industry.
Has any cinematic endeavor accomplished more than that? Good god Arch! Really?! "Is Anything A Greater Cinematic Achievement Than The MCU?" Holy shit, the MCU %#&% is so far up your @$$ you cant even see right.
How about, oh I don't know, movies of social or dramatic significance that have stood the test of time? Or movies that were so deep and meaningful that they changed lives and peoples perceptions, or even just film language itself? Or the ENTIRE CAREERS of Steven Spielberg, or Martin Scorsese, or Stanley Kubrick? What about the entire European Film Nouveau movement of the 60's? The new wave of American auteurs in the 70's? How about sound and color in movies? How about Just Star Wars, or Harry Potter, or LOTR or Star Trek?
The MCU is awesome, no doubt! But its just fun entertainment. There are far more greater achievements in film/cinema than a string of money making CBM's. Go out into the world, see some movies from before just the last ten years, learn, and then come back and we'll talk about the great cinematic achievements.
Seriously, tone down the fanaticism. Its out of control!
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Post by harpospoke on Dec 11, 2017 21:23:08 GMT
Sure it can. In fact, it's as a direct result of the MCU that. Star Wars is expanding like it is. So I'd say the MCU is pretty damn powerful to be leading a series you say it can't top. Star Wars would be big regardless of anything, it's Star Wars. It's popularity has never faded ever since it began. The thing that will hurt the MCU in the long run is that it will be rebooted some day. There will be other portrayals of Iron Man, Captain America and Thor. New versions and new series just like how Batman and Spider-man have had multiple interpretations. The MCU makes good and successful movies but they won't go down in history as some of the best movies ever made or iconic or revolutionary movies. Star Wars is 40 years old and people still talk about it all the time. Will people still remember Doctor Strange and Black Panther in 2056? Not likely, maybe The Avengers but that's about it. The thing here is that Star Wars is still trading on the original characters too. Han, Leia, and Luke show up still. The Prequels fell off at the box office quite a bit from the original Star Wars and even they put in Dark Vader and Obi Wan. What people "talk about" is not a measure though. No one talks about Citizen Kane or The Jazz Singer either. It's going to be interesting to see what happens post Avengers 4 for sure though. Where Marvel goes from there will be a challenge. But that will be something like 22 movies in? So that's an unprecedented run if they can keep it up either way.
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Post by harpospoke on Dec 11, 2017 21:25:27 GMT
I'd like to hear any thoughts on what would be considered a bigger accomplishment. The resume of the MCU is that of a 22 solid film run that has achieved consistent results, raised it's box office value, established global brand trust, earned the purchasing eye of Disney, produced at least a few of the very best films in the genre, become the largest film study in Hollywood, and has become an influence on the entire industry.
Has any cinematic endeavor accomplished more than that? Good god Arch! Really?! "Is Anything A Greater Cinematic Achievement Than The MCU?" Holy shit, the MCU %#&% is so far up your @$$ you cant even see right.
How about, oh I don't know, movies of social or dramatic significance that have stood the test of time? Or movies that were so deep and meaningful that they changed lives and peoples perceptions, or even just film language itself? Or the ENTIRE CAREERS of Steven Spielberg, or Martin Scorsese, or Stanley Kubrick? What about the entire European Film Nouveau movement of the 60's? The new wave of American auteurs in the 70's? How about sound and color in movies? How about Just Star Wars, or Harry Potter, or LOTR or Star Trek?
The MCU is awesome, no doubt! But its just fun entertainment. There are far more greater achievements in film/cinema than a string of money making CBM's. Go out into the world, see some movies from before just the last ten years, learn, and then come back and we'll talk about the great cinematic achievements.
Seriously, tone down the fanaticism. Its out of control!
That's a bit hipster. It's movies either way. "Fun entertainment" "Great cinematic achievements" Both just movies. That's all. So you make a good point about exaggerating the importance of these things but it didn't really support your argument.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 11, 2017 22:21:03 GMT
The Dark Knight Trilogy has better characters, villains, writing, production design, ambition, cinematography, acting, pacing, and musical scores. The Indiana Jones Trilogy is pretty much the same as above, but I think the MCU has better villains by just a bit. We're not talking about better or worse, It's not an evaluation of acting and cinematography
We're talking about bigger accomplishment,
And TDK and Indiana Jones aren't bigger accomplishments.
How can you just ignore things like acting and cinematography when you're talking about cinematic achievements? That's like comparing squid without talking about tentacle length or ink viscosity!
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Post by Deleted on Dec 11, 2017 22:32:12 GMT
I'd like to hear any thoughts on what would be considered a bigger accomplishment. The resume of the MCU is that of a 22 solid film run that has achieved consistent results, raised it's box office value, established global brand trust, earned the purchasing eye of Disney, produced at least a few of the very best films in the genre, become the largest film study in Hollywood, and has become an influence on the entire industry.
Has any cinematic endeavor accomplished more than that? Good god Arch! Really?! "Is Anything A Greater Cinematic Achievement Than The MCU?" Holy shit, the MCU %#&% is so far up your @$$ you cant even see right.
How about, oh I don't know, movies of social or dramatic significance that have stood the test of time? Or movies that were so deep and meaningful that they changed lives and peoples perceptions, or even just film language itself? Or the ENTIRE CAREERS of Steven Spielberg, or Martin Scorsese, or Stanley Kubrick? What about the entire European Film Nouveau movement of the 60's? The new wave of American auteurs in the 70's? How about sound and color in movies? How about Just Star Wars, or Harry Potter, or LOTR or Star Trek?
The MCU is awesome, no doubt! But its just fun entertainment. There are far more greater achievements in film/cinema than a string of money making CBM's. Go out into the world, see some movies from before just the last ten years, learn, and then come back and we'll talk about the great cinematic achievements.
Seriously, tone down the fanaticism. Its out of control!
I really enjoyed this post! 😀
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