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Post by jammer81386 on Dec 25, 2017 20:52:46 GMT
I want to preface this post saying that I really wanted to like this movie as I feel the fandom has become increasingly negative over the past few years, and that these movie, like the prequels are being defined solely by their shortcomings. I also want to concede this film may be another Empire Strikes Back, in that it may become more appreciated as time goes on. With all that said, here is one of my criticisms of the film that I have not seen mentioned by anyone else.
One of my main problems with the film was the story of Po, Finn, and Rose. In the end, their mission was entirely detrimental to the resistance. In fact, they would have been better off had they sat down and did nothing. The end goal of the resistance was to make it to the hidden base undetected, but the were found out because of the hacker that Finn and Rose brought to sabotage the Order's tracking computers. Thus resulting in the decimation of the escaping resistance members.
Thus far I have only seen the film once. So if I am missing something please point it out.
Again, I am not bringing this up to be a hater. I am not saying this movie killed Star Wars, or anything like that. I just think the movie had problems and wanted to share my thoughts.
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Post by Jedan Archer on Dec 25, 2017 21:31:43 GMT
I want to preface this post saying that I really wanted to like this movie as I feel the fandom has become increasingly negative over the past few years, and that these movie, like the prequels are being defined solely by their shortcomings. I also want to concede this film may be another Empire Strikes Back, in that it may become more appreciated as time goes on. With all that said, here is one of my criticisms of the film that I have not seen mentioned by anyone else. One of my main problems with the film was the story of Po, Finn, and Rose. In the end, their mission was entirely detrimental to the resistance. In fact, they would have been better off had they sat down and did nothing. The end goal of the resistance was to make it to the hidden base undetected, but the were found out because of the hacker that Finn and Rose brought to sabotage the Order's tracking computers. Thus resulting in the decimation of the escaping resistance members. Thus far I have only seen the film once. So if I am missing something please point it out. Again, I am not bringing this up to be a hater. I am not saying this movie killed Star Wars, or anything like that. I just think the movie had problems and wanted to share my thoughts. Yes, this whole B-storyline is full of plot holes and plot redundancies. Why did the Laura Dern character not tell her plan to the others (spies, moles...?), would have preventing the futile and detrimental Fin/Rose excursion and the Poe mutiny. All just seems to exists to give characters something to do and to set up future spin off films. The whole storyline with the fleet being chased to a remote planet, running out of fuel, going to a casino planet and having a mutiny because of a new commander seems very derivative of Battlestar Galactica storylines, but in an bland and uninspired way. Also, tone wise, it is baffling that the Resistance fleet is finally decimated to a dozen individuals fitting on the Falcon (including the loss of last Jedi Luke) and this is still played as a happy, hopeful ending. |
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Post by DSDSquared on Dec 27, 2017 16:45:21 GMT
It is not a plot hole. Also, this kind of thing happens in movies all of the time. Name me any movie ever made, no matter how good, and I can make a ton of these ridiculous threads nitpicking every little thing. This was a top three Star Wars movie.
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Post by mcufan on Dec 29, 2017 12:07:38 GMT
That's what happened to Luke. Instead of making things worse he chose to do nothing. But like Yoda says sometimes the best teacher is failure. Even for a Jedi Master that lost his way.
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Post by Waxer-n-boil on Dec 29, 2017 12:44:37 GMT
It is not a plot hole. Also, this kind of thing happens in movies all of the time. Name me any movie ever made, no matter how good, and I can make a ton of these ridiculous threads nitpicking every little thing. This was a top three Star Wars movie. These 2 Disney SW movies clearly have more plot holes than the earlier ones. And some of them are so obvious that they stick out like a sore thumb. |
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Post by DSDSquared on Dec 29, 2017 12:48:12 GMT
It is not a plot hole. Also, this kind of thing happens in movies all of the time. Name me any movie ever made, no matter how good, and I can make a ton of these ridiculous threads nitpicking every little thing. This was a top three Star Wars movie. These 2 Disney SW movies clearly have more plot holes than the earlier ones. And some of them are so obvious that they stick out like a sore thumb. Like what? I keep hearing this, but most of you have no idea what a plot hole actually is. Not liking something is not a plot hole. |
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Post by Waxer-n-boil on Dec 29, 2017 13:31:44 GMT
These 2 Disney SW movies clearly have more plot holes than the earlier ones. And some of them are so obvious that they stick out like a sore thumb. Like what? I keep hearing this, but most of you have no idea what a plot hole actually is. Not liking something is not a plot hole. TLJ: Why are Finn and Rose off on an adventure looking for a code breaker when they could've just blown up the tracker ship like Holdo did in the first place? TLJ: Why didn't Holdo just tell Poe what the plan was instead of giving Poe and a few of his cohorts inspiration for a mutiny? TLJ: How did did Finn and Rose go from kneeling in handcuffs to being free when the Holdo explosion hit the ship? And how did Phasma go from standing right next to them to coming out of a flame covered doorway down the hall? TLJ: How can Snoke be powerful enough to read and control the minds of Rey and Kylo without them knowing it, causing them to have Force visions of each other across the galaxy - but he can't detect someone manipulating a lightsaber right next to him? TFA: How did Maz get Luke's lightsaber? TFA:Why did no one check R2D2 for the map? TFA: Why did R2D2 only turn on when Rey entered the room and there was nowhere left for the story to go other than completing the map and flying off to find Luke? TFA \TLJ: What was the map left for anyway if Luke didn't want to be found and wanted to be left alone and wait to die? TFA: Why did Kylo kill Lor San Tekka before he knew where the piece of the map was or who else (if anyone) might have it? Suppose Poe had snuck off into the desert with BB8 - he would've gone back to Hux and Snoke empty handed, and with a stupid explanation as to why. TFA: How did a limping Kylo trailing behind Finn and Rey running away, get ahead of them to cut them off in the forest? |
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Post by DSDSquared on Dec 29, 2017 13:36:41 GMT
Like what? I keep hearing this, but most of you have no idea what a plot hole actually is. Not liking something is not a plot hole. TLJ: Why are Finn and Rose off on an adventure looking for a code breaker when they could've just blown up the tracker ship like Holdo did in the first place? TLJ: Why didn't Holdo just tell Poe what the plan was instead of giving Poe and a few of his cohorts inspiration for a mutiny? TLJ: How did did Finn and Rose go from kneeling in handcuffs to being free when the Holdo explosion hit the ship? And how did Phasma go from standing right next to them to coming out of a flame covered doorway down the hall? TLJ: How can Snoke be powerful enough to read and control the minds of Rey and Kylo without them knowing it, causing them to have Force visions of each other across the galaxy - but he can't detect someone manipulating a lightsaber right next to him? TFA: How did Maz get Luke's lightsaber? TFA:Why did no one check R2D2 for the map? TFA: Why did R2D2 only turn on when Rey entered the room and there was nowhere left for the story to go other than completing the map and flying off to find Luke? TFA \TLJ: What was the map left for anyway if Luke didn't want to be found and wanted to be left alone and wait to die? TFA: Why did Kylo kill Lor San Tekka before he knew where the piece of the map was or who else (if anyone) might have it? Suppose Poe had snuck off into the desert with BB8 - he would've gone back to Hux and Snoke empty handed, and with a stupid explanation as to why. TFA: How did a limping Kylo trailing behind Finn and Rey running away, get ahead of them to cut them off in the forest? Most of these are not even close to plot holes at all. Once again, maybe you need to read a dictionary. The others are just questions that were not answered.
Snoke was distracted and I thought it was genius what Kylo did. Snoke was not even paying attention to him. He was manipulating Rey. Finn and Rose's mission did not work, but it not working is not a plot hole. How did Maz get Luke's lightsaber? Who knows? Not a plot hole.
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Post by Jedan Archer on Dec 29, 2017 13:47:49 GMT
These 2 Disney SW movies clearly have more plot holes than the earlier ones. And some of them are so obvious that they stick out like a sore thumb. ? I keep hearing this, but most of you have no idea what a plot hole actually is. Not liking something is not a plot hole. Fanboying over movies does not explain away plot holes either. But this sounds like a fun challenge: I start with naming say 2 plot holes/logical leaps and you try to explain them away, without supposition, making absurd things up and solely based on the dialogue and narrative! Roger, Roger?
1. Force Awakens: Kylo as a fanatical Vader fanboy is praying to Anakin/Vader's mask to protect him from the "light".
Why? Vader is the guy who turned, destroyed the dark side/Emperor and is still around as a friendly light-side Force ghost, he asked Luke to tell people about his turn. So why of all people would Vader be the one to protect Kylo from the light, he is least qualified. Or did Vader turn dark side again after Jedi?
A plot hole as clumsy as it is stupid. Now explain.
2. Rogue One: Vader pursues/kills the Rebels handing over the map physically on to Leia's ship. Vader fails to stop them.
BUT: In ANH a few hours later Vader explicitly claims vis-a-vis the captain, Leia and his officer that the plans were beamed/transmitted onto this very ship and that he found them by tracing the spies transmission back to Leia's ship.
That is something completely different from what we saw in R1...! Speed kills especially during reshoots. Now explain!
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Post by Waxer-n-boil on Dec 29, 2017 13:53:35 GMT
TLJ: Why are Finn and Rose off on an adventure looking for a code breaker when they could've just blown up the tracker ship like Holdo did in the first place? TLJ: Why didn't Holdo just tell Poe what the plan was instead of giving Poe and a few of his cohorts inspiration for a mutiny? TLJ: How did did Finn and Rose go from kneeling in handcuffs to being free when the Holdo explosion hit the ship? And how did Phasma go from standing right next to them to coming out of a flame covered doorway down the hall? TLJ: How can Snoke be powerful enough to read and control the minds of Rey and Kylo without them knowing it, causing them to have Force visions of each other across the galaxy - but he can't detect someone manipulating a lightsaber right next to him? TFA: How did Maz get Luke's lightsaber? TFA:Why did no one check R2D2 for the map? TFA: Why did R2D2 only turn on when Rey entered the room and there was nowhere left for the story to go other than completing the map and flying off to find Luke? TFA \TLJ: What was the map left for anyway if Luke didn't want to be found and wanted to be left alone and wait to die? TFA: Why did Kylo kill Lor San Tekka before he knew where the piece of the map was or who else (if anyone) might have it? Suppose Poe had snuck off into the desert with BB8 - he would've gone back to Hux and Snoke empty handed, and with a stupid explanation as to why. TFA: How did a limping Kylo trailing behind Finn and Rey running away, get ahead of them to cut them off in the forest? Most of these are not even close to plot holes at all. Once again, maybe you need to read a dictionary. The others are just questions that were not answered.
Snoke was distracted and I thought it was genius what Kylo did. Snoke was not even paying attention to him. He was manipulating Rey. Finn and Rose's mission did not work, but it not working is not a plot hole. How did Maz get Luke's lightsaber? Who knows? Not a plot hole.
To the contrary most of them are plot holes by definition. Given that Snoke said he had been reading their minds and that he could read Kylo's every thought at the very time that Kylo used the lightsaber to kill him, that's a plot hole. You just happened to like it. But it was still a plot hole. Maz having Luke's lightsaber is a plot hole. Well, they have one more movie to explain it and remove it as a plot hole, but that seems doubtful. |
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Post by Jedan Archer on Dec 29, 2017 14:00:09 GMT
Most of these are not even close to plot holes at all. Once again, maybe you need to read a dictionary. The others are just questions that were not answered.
Snoke was distracted and I thought it was genius what Kylo did. Snoke was not even paying attention to him. He was manipulating Rey. Finn and Rose's mission did not work, but it not working is not a plot hole. How did Maz get Luke's lightsaber? Who knows? Not a plot hole.
To the contrary most of them are plot holes by definition. Given that Snoke said he had been reading their minds and that he could read Kylo's every thought at the very time that Kylo used the lightsaber to kill him, that's a plot hole. You just happened to like it. But it was still a plot hole. The logical leap with the mind reading for me is that Snoke is so powerful to trace Kylo and Rey's location and to connect them via Force Skype. But he is not able to trace Luke standing next to Rey, or to read Rey's mind where Luke is in the galaxy. Wasn't that the sole reason he interrogated Rey ("Tell we, where is Skywalker? Then I will kill you with the cruelest stroke" or like that). |
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Post by Waxer-n-boil on Dec 29, 2017 14:11:46 GMT
To the contrary most of them are plot holes by definition. Given that Snoke said he had been reading their minds and that he could read Kylo's every thought at the very time that Kylo used the lightsaber to kill him, that's a plot hole. You just happened to like it. But it was still a plot hole. The logical leap with the mind reading for me is that Snoke is so powerful to trace Kylo and Rey's location and to connect them via Force Skype. But he is not able to trace Luke standing next to Rey, or to read Rey's mind where Luke is in the galaxy. Wasn't that the sole reason he interrogated Rey ("Tell we, where is Skywalker? Then I will kill you with the cruelest stroke" or like that). Yeah that's the sense I got also. But seeing that Rey is clear on the other side of the galaxy, I figured it was imposing on Snoke's limitations because of the distance. Kylo even said to Rey (paraphrasing) "I can see you but I can't see where you are at. Can you see me? Can you see everything around me?" |
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Post by Jedan Archer on Dec 29, 2017 14:24:58 GMT
The logical leap with the mind reading for me is that Snoke is so powerful to trace Kylo and Rey's location and to connect them via Force Skype. But he is not able to trace Luke standing next to Rey, or to read Rey's mind where Luke is in the galaxy. Wasn't that the sole reason he interrogated Rey ("Tell we, where is Skywalker? Then I will kill you with the cruelest stroke" or like that). Yeah that's the sense I got also. But seeing that Rey is clear on the other side of the galaxy, I figured it was imposing on Snoke's limitations because of the distance. Kylo even said to Rey (paraphrasing) "I can see you but I can't see where you are at. Can you see me? Can you see everything around me?" Well, that would make no sense for me either. Why would he need to see their surrounding? And even if he could he would just see rocks like on millions of worlds. How do you trace a video call in practice: via picture or via signal (the latter)?
What counts is that Snoke seems to be able to find and identify and connect people throughout the galaxy but is unable to physically identify their destination.
It's a logical stretch, but who knows how the Force really works (always at the plot's convenience that's for sure).
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Post by Oh My Aching Ackbar-Raddus! on Dec 29, 2017 20:49:30 GMT
Like what? I keep hearing this, but most of you have no idea what a plot hole actually is. Not liking something is not a plot hole. TLJ: Why are Finn and Rose off on an adventure looking for a code breaker when they could've just blown up the tracker ship like Holdo did in the first place? TLJ: Why didn't Holdo just tell Poe what the plan was instead of giving Poe and a few of his cohorts inspiration for a mutiny? TLJ: How did did Finn and Rose go from kneeling in handcuffs to being free when the Holdo explosion hit the ship? And how did Phasma go from standing right next to them to coming out of a flame covered doorway down the hall? TLJ: How can Snoke be powerful enough to read and control the minds of Rey and Kylo without them knowing it, causing them to have Force visions of each other across the galaxy - but he can't detect someone manipulating a lightsaber right next to him? TFA: How did Maz get Luke's lightsaber? TFA:Why did no one check R2D2 for the map? TFA: Why did R2D2 only turn on when Rey entered the room and there was nowhere left for the story to go other than completing the map and flying off to find Luke? TFA \TLJ: What was the map left for anyway if Luke didn't want to be found and wanted to be left alone and wait to die? TFA: Why did Kylo kill Lor San Tekka before he knew where the piece of the map was or who else (if anyone) might have it? Suppose Poe had snuck off into the desert with BB8 - he would've gone back to Hux and Snoke empty handed, and with a stupid explanation as to why.TFA: How did a limping Kylo trailing behind Finn and Rey running away, get ahead of them to cut them off in the forest? It probably would've gone something like this... (Kylo and Hux stand before Snoke in his holographic throne room) Snoke: So where is the map? Kylo: It wasn't there. Snoke (raising voice): What do you mean it wasn't there? Kylo: We couldn't find it. Hux: He couldn't find it. Snoke: Our intel indicated that it was with Lor San Tekka. What happened? Hux (whispering): The Supreme Leader and I, our intel did indicate that. Kylo (clears throat): He didn't have it. Snoke: So you just questioned San Tekka and let him go?!? Kylo: About that... Snoke: Don't lie to me boy! Kylo: Ummmm, well. You see... (Snoke leans forward and stares at Kylo) Kylo (in sheepish voice): Uh, well... That Lor San Tekka guy... He was making fun o' me!(Hux snickers) Snoke: WHAT?!? Kylo: Well he was making fun of you too! So I kind of... sliced him in half... kind of. (The scene switches to the entrance door outside of the throne room. Suddenly Kylo's screams can be heard. Childlike screams of pain go on for about 20 minutes.) (Finally Kylo emerges from the throne room - looking disheveled, walking stiff-legged and gingerly. His pants are smoking and there is a singed hole behind exposing his scorched butt.) Hux (emerges from the throne room behind Kylo with a smirk on his face): You deserved that. |
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