shinnickneth
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Post by shinnickneth on Jan 3, 2018 23:09:19 GMT
He missed that throw on purpose. Really? Really? C'mon bro. it's me you're talking to. I'm not buying either that Vader missed that throw at all. Vader "missed" that throw like he "missed" chopping off Luke's hand in Episode 5. Luke had just become more agile/powerful in the Force from the last time they dueled in Episode 5.
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Post by mcufan on Jan 3, 2018 23:12:01 GMT
He missed that throw on purpose. Really? Really? C'mon bro. it's me you're talking to. So in your opinion he is still full Vader in this scene? Full on dark side join me or die? What about when Luke in a fit of rage cuts his arm? When did Luke get to him? When he was begging? He might be going for the kill here, the conflict is inside, in a previous scene he says to Luke, it's too late for me. They are like father like son, the son being better at dominating his inner rage. It's what he does. It's what he did in tlj.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 3, 2018 23:21:27 GMT
Really? Really? C'mon bro. it's me you're talking to. So in your opinion he is still full Vader in this scene? Full on dark side join me or die? Well, yes, based on Vader saying he intended to kill Luke, I think he intended to kill him.
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Post by mcufan on Jan 3, 2018 23:22:17 GMT
So in your opinion he is still full Vader in this scene? Full on dark side join me or die? Well, yes, based on Vader saying he intended to kill Luke, I think he intended to kill him. but he comes and goes correct?
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Post by Deleted on Jan 3, 2018 23:30:41 GMT
Well, yes, based on Vader saying he intended to kill Luke, I think he intended to kill him. but he comes and goes correct? Come and goes where?
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Post by mcufan on Jan 3, 2018 23:34:48 GMT
but he comes and goes correct? Come and goes where? between killing him and recruiting him. He changes his mind.
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Post by moviebuffbrad on Jan 4, 2018 0:55:41 GMT
He missed that throw on purpose. Really? Really? C'mon bro. it's me you're talking to. Well, like I said in the part you left out, he's still trying to recruit Luke in the very next scene. Is Vader just getting senile? It doesn't even look like that throw would have hit Luke if Luke didn't move. He was aiming for the catwalk's support beams, scare tactics to make Luke think he's serious. Prior to that, Luke told him "I feel the good in you, the Emperor hasn't driven it from you fully, that's why you couldn't destroy me". In the end, Vader says he was right. He kills the Emperor only when Luke becomes in real danger of dying.
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Post by moviebuffbrad on Jan 4, 2018 1:08:48 GMT
I've always heard it as both of them. To be fair, it's a muddled scene. Plagueis and Palpatine were entrenched together in the dark side, they shifted cosmic alignments and caused the imbalance in the Force that we heard about so much in the movies. During this process, Plagueis sent his seed out into the galaxy, but it was only Plagueis who did this part. This whole scene has passed into Legends, though, unfortunately.
It'll happen and we'll all commiserate together. MCUfan will still be on here talking about how good the movie was, though. Hey, I was in your spot after TFA came out. These guys all warned me that I was having the wool pulled over my eyes, but I kept on rigidly defending the movie and its mystery boxes and Mary Sue character. They saw the light after one. I saw the light after two. Maybe it'll take three for you. I'll take your word for it. I still don't think it's very Jedi-like, based on what we're told, to kill an unarmed man sitting in a chair, regardless of who he's related to. When you put it that way, it was TLJ that turned me to the dark side. I was "lukewarm" on TFA - I thought it was entertaining and had likable characters, but did suffer from deja vu. I found TLJ an improvement and it offered what I had thought we all wanted, which is to sever itself from repeating everything in the OT and take the story/characters in new directions. They even substantially de-powered Rey. But yes, if E9 is about redeeming Kylo, I'm out. I just feel like they nipped that in the bud in this one. If he's not the big bad, who is? Hux?
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Post by Deleted on Jan 4, 2018 4:24:06 GMT
Really? Really? C'mon bro. it's me you're talking to. Well, like I said in the part you left out, he's still trying to recruit Luke in the very next scene. Is Vader just getting senile? It doesn't even look like that throw would have hit Luke if Luke didn't move. He was aiming for the catwalk's support beams, scare tactics to make Luke think he's serious. Prior to that, Luke told him "I feel the good in you, the Emperor hasn't driven it from you fully, that's why you couldn't destroy me". In the end, Vader says he was right. He kills the Emperor only when Luke becomes in real danger of dying. I left it out because I didn't consider it relevant to the argument about whether he tried to hit Luke with the light saber in that scene. Since you think it is, let's discuss it. You are under the impression that the two things: a.) Vader wants Luke to join him in the dark side and b.) Vader has to kill Luke if he does not.. are mutually exclusive. They are not. He is doing both at the same time. Remember, Vader's intention in turning Luke to the dark side is not ultimately so that Luke will server the Emperor. As discussed in TESB, the reason he wants Luke to turn is so that their combined power can destroy the Emperor. This is clarified later in the PT, by the way, when the preferred tactic to defeat a powerful Sith Lord is for two Jedi to "do it together," like Obi Wan advises Anakin in two different movies. Vader has not lost this desire. It is actually Vader's ultimate desire. But if Luke will not turn, Vader has no choice but to try to kill him. Each moment that Luke survives Vader's murderous attacks, he gets reprieve and one more chance to change his mind. Also, keep in mind that Vader isn't just recruiting Luke. He's also taunting him. Taunting is actually a legitimate battle tactic the Sith learn, because provoking a combatant to think about things other than the next move in the fight, or in other words, "get a psychological advantage" in a duel between Force users is much more meaningful than in combat against, say, someone who simply knows karate.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 4, 2018 4:47:11 GMT
When you put it that way, it was TLJ that turned me to the dark side. I was "lukewarm" on TFA - I thought it was entertaining and had likable characters, but did suffer from deja vu. I found TLJ an improvement and it offered what I had thought we all wanted, which is to sever itself from repeating everything in the OT and take the story/characters in new directions. They even substantially de-powered Rey. But yes, if E9 is about redeeming Kylo, I'm out. I just feel like they nipped that in the bud in this one. If he's not the big bad, who is? Hux? I've always thought "rehash" was too strong a description for what TFA offered. I preferred to think of it as the (continued!) reverberation of the ring that was Star Wars up until that point. Hell no everyone didn't want it to sever itself from the OT. Quite the contrary! I wanted the ST to work as one fluid end to a nine-part story. I was rallying for a bridge character who survived the PT and who was ultimately behind the entire conflict of the events thus shown in episodes I through VII. I also think they empowered Rey further, not de-powered her. Let's review. Rey apologists (like me) after TFA said "hey, part of the reason she's so naturally skilled in the Force is because she's a Skywalker!" and "hey, don't worry, she's going to get the training she needs from Luke in the next movie!" Well that next movie said, "ha ha, nope," and "sorry, but no," to those two things. So where TLJ left us is that Rey is extremely powerful all on her own.
And no, ha, Hux is certainly not the big bad after that total emasculation he just went through in TLJ. He used to be an interesting character at least, although he's not that anymore either thanks to TLJ. Snoke wasn't the only one whose clout had to be removed to make way for Kylo's shining star. Even poor Hux was diminished. And once Rey turns Kylo good, the FO won't matter anymore and they won't need a leader. The maniacal part of all of this is that everyone except one guy on the side of the bad guys in the movie is diminished purely to move Rey - whose good guy side has equally been wiped out - forward as a heroine. It's astonishingly bad writing.
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Post by moviebuffbrad on Jan 4, 2018 6:46:31 GMT
When you put it that way, it was TLJ that turned me to the dark side. I was "lukewarm" on TFA - I thought it was entertaining and had likable characters, but did suffer from deja vu. I found TLJ an improvement and it offered what I had thought we all wanted, which is to sever itself from repeating everything in the OT and take the story/characters in new directions. They even substantially de-powered Rey. But yes, if E9 is about redeeming Kylo, I'm out. I just feel like they nipped that in the bud in this one. If he's not the big bad, who is? Hux? I've always thought "rehash" was too strong a description for what TFA offered. I preferred to think of it as the (continued!) reverberation of the ring that was Star Wars up until that point. Hell no everyone didn't want it to sever itself from the OT. Quite the contrary! I wanted the ST to work as one fluid end to a nine-part story. I was rallying for a bridge character who survived the PT and who was ultimately behind the entire conflict of the events thus shown in episodes I through VII. I also think they empowered Rey further, not de-powered her. Let's review. Rey apologists (like me) after TFA said "hey, part of the reason she's so naturally skilled in the Force is because she's a Skywalker!" and "hey, don't worry, she's going to get the training she needs from Luke in the next movie!" Well that next movie said, "ha ha, nope," and "sorry, but no," to those two things. So where TLJ left us is that Rey is extremely powerful all on her own.
And no, ha, Hux is certainly not the big bad after that total emasculation he just went through in TLJ. He used to be an interesting character at least, although he's not that anymore either thanks to TLJ. Snoke wasn't the only one whose clout had to be removed to make way for Kylo's shining star. Even poor Hux was diminished. And once Rey turns Kylo good, the FO won't matter anymore and they won't need a leader. The maniacal part of all of this is that everyone except one guy on the side of the bad guys in the movie is diminished purely to move Rey - whose good guy side has equally been wiped out - forward as a heroine. It's astonishingly bad writing. You misunderstand, I said sever itself from repeating the OT as in not spend the next two films copying the OT as TFA did (ie, Rey finds out she's related to Kylo and gets her hand cut off and e9 is about defeating Snoke and saving Ren). Actually, a common Mary Sue trope is that they're related to a main character. Heh. And at least until midichlorians, you didn't have to be related to someone for the mystical space magic that symbolizes inner strength to be strong in you. In TLJ, she almost comically is toyed with by Snoke, and ties with Kylo Ren in their subsequent fight (as opposed to beating him in TFA). The most special thing she does is move some rocks. The rest of the film is about her human failings. As you've implied, her motivation to save Kylo is partly attraction. Not very empowering stuff, especially when it proves naive with her wrong, Luke right. As for Vader, we're just gonna have to agree to disagree. Luke insisted Vader couldn't bring himself to kill Luke, and in the end, Luke was proven right. What can I say beyond that? I pointed out that the saber looked like it would have missed. Is it a coincidence that it missed Luke but severed the support beams knocking Luke on his ass? This is Darth Vader, and he can't hit a target 5 feet away? Whether he wants Luke to join him or The Emperor (btw, as we've been discussing, Luke attempts to murder the Emperor and Vader stops him, so...), I'm saying Vader couldn't kill Luke, despite his postering. What you're saying is that Luke was a dumbass, and simply got lucky that Vader happened to be in one of his "I shouldn't kill my son" moods when he pitched the Emperor down a shaft. Edit: oh, and as for Hux, I never liked that comically overacted space Nazi until this one. Now that he's answering to Ren, I'm actually interested in where his character will go. Perhaps he'll try to overthrow him with wits. I don't know, but "brown-nosing weasel" was never a masculine role for him or anyone else.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 4, 2018 15:20:30 GMT
I've always thought "rehash" was too strong a description for what TFA offered. I preferred to think of it as the (continued!) reverberation of the ring that was Star Wars up until that point. Hell no everyone didn't want it to sever itself from the OT. Quite the contrary! I wanted the ST to work as one fluid end to a nine-part story. I was rallying for a bridge character who survived the PT and who was ultimately behind the entire conflict of the events thus shown in episodes I through VII. I also think they empowered Rey further, not de-powered her. Let's review. Rey apologists (like me) after TFA said "hey, part of the reason she's so naturally skilled in the Force is because she's a Skywalker!" and "hey, don't worry, she's going to get the training she needs from Luke in the next movie!" Well that next movie said, "ha ha, nope," and "sorry, but no," to those two things. So where TLJ left us is that Rey is extremely powerful all on her own.
And no, ha, Hux is certainly not the big bad after that total emasculation he just went through in TLJ. He used to be an interesting character at least, although he's not that anymore either thanks to TLJ. Snoke wasn't the only one whose clout had to be removed to make way for Kylo's shining star. Even poor Hux was diminished. And once Rey turns Kylo good, the FO won't matter anymore and they won't need a leader. The maniacal part of all of this is that everyone except one guy on the side of the bad guys in the movie is diminished purely to move Rey - whose good guy side has equally been wiped out - forward as a heroine. It's astonishingly bad writing. Edit: oh, and as for Hux, I never liked that comically overacted space Nazi until this one. Now that he's answering to Ren, I'm actually interested in where his character will go. Perhaps he'll try to overthrow him with wits. I don't know, but "brown-nosing weasel" was never a masculine role for him or anyone else. He's actually kind of an interesting character in some of the books. He and Phasma murdered his father. He owes everything he has to said murdered father, so it was more interesting for me watching him try to be a badass in TFA (even though we know he's not) and compete with Kylo as opposed to being Kylo's whipping boy now.
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Post by moviebuffbrad on Jan 4, 2018 22:25:51 GMT
Edit: oh, and as for Hux, I never liked that comically overacted space Nazi until this one. Now that he's answering to Ren, I'm actually interested in where his character will go. Perhaps he'll try to overthrow him with wits. I don't know, but "brown-nosing weasel" was never a masculine role for him or anyone else. He's actually kind of an interesting character in some of the books. He and Phasma murdered his father. He owes everything he has to said murdered father, so it was more interesting for me watching him try to be a badass in TFA (even though we know he's not) and compete with Kylo as opposed to being Kylo's whipping boy now. That is interesting. I don't think him and Phasma even had scenes together in the movies.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 4, 2018 22:56:25 GMT
He's actually kind of an interesting character in some of the books. He and Phasma murdered his father. He owes everything he has to said murdered father, so it was more interesting for me watching him try to be a badass in TFA (even though we know he's not) and compete with Kylo as opposed to being Kylo's whipping boy now. That is interesting. I don't think him and Phasma even had scenes together in the movies. Nope. Too bad, too. That would actually have been an interesting romance and if Disney really wanted to do something unique, why not show us a love affair on the villain side?
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Post by formersamhmd on Jan 6, 2018 14:37:14 GMT
Considering that Ren then destroyed the Temple with the followers he'd already converted to his side right after Luke had his change of heart...Luke wasn't wrong. Kylo was already planning on destroying the temple, killing everyone and taking his followers to Snoke. He was GOING to do it, even if Luke hadn't done a thing.
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Post by Power Ranger on Jan 6, 2018 15:25:54 GMT
Considering that Ren then destroyed the Temple with the followers he'd already converted to his side right after Luke had his change of heart...Luke wasn't wrong. Kylo was already planning on destroying the temple, killing everyone and taking his followers to Snoke. He was GOING to do it, even if Luke hadn't done a thing. But if Kylo turns good in Episode IX then Luke was wrong.
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Post by formersamhmd on Jan 6, 2018 16:24:09 GMT
Considering that Ren then destroyed the Temple with the followers he'd already converted to his side right after Luke had his change of heart...Luke wasn't wrong. Kylo was already planning on destroying the temple, killing everyone and taking his followers to Snoke. He was GOING to do it, even if Luke hadn't done a thing. But if Kylo turns good in Episode IX then Luke was wrong. Don't think so, making some last minute switch doesn't change that he helped the first order kill Billions. Same with Vader to be honest. He was never truly "redeemed", he never repented for all the billions who died because of him. He just sacrificed himself to save his son, which didn't make up for all the other stuff he did. I never got why the story acted like it was anything other than that.
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