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Post by Nalkarj on Jan 20, 2018 17:56:00 GMT
Question, and then I’m outta here: don’t Marvel fans usually respond to criticisms of Marvel villains with “that’s because you just don’t understand—for once, a studio put the emphasis on the hero”? If that excuse, justification, answer, reasoning, what have you, applies for Marvel, logic suggests that criticizing other studios’ villains is more than a trifle hypocritical. If those other studios gave us good heroes so we'd know the attention was going somewhere it would be one thing, but when you fail with a hero AND a villain then you deserve criticism. 1. That’s utterly subjective, of course, as all of this is. I quite enjoyed BvS and found Supes, Bats, and Luthor in that all more interesting than Thor, Iron Man after #1, or [most of] Marvel’s villains. I’m willing to concede that’s an idiosyncratic opinion, but that’s the point: we’re talking subjectively, not objectively. 2. Non sequitur. Your reasoning does not follow from the premise on which this thread is operating. The OP wrote, “We’ve had 5 movies at this point and we still don’t have a villain that’s even half as good as Marvel's worst”—not “hero and villain have failed,” only villains. The point stands. QED.
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Post by formersamhmd on Jan 20, 2018 17:59:03 GMT
If those other studios gave us good heroes so we'd know the attention was going somewhere it would be one thing, but when you fail with a hero AND a villain then you deserve criticism. 2. Non sequitur. Your reasoning does not follow from the premise on which this thread is operating. The OP wrote, “We’ve had 5 movies at this point and we still don’t have a villain that’s even half as good as Marvel's worst”—not “hero and villain have failed,” only villains. The point stands. QED. 2) If the heroes were any good he wouldn't even care enough about the villains to make this post. It's DC's combined failure that leads to stuff like this. I found this analogy of DCEU to MCU from before Justice League debuted and I think it's quite apt: The DCEU is that goth/emo kid in high school who used to be kinda cute as a toddler and all the grannies cooed over him. Now he's hit puberty, slathered on white makeup and dyed his hair extra black (it's already black!). He then refuses to look at anyone in eye, wears an overly long black coat and swooshes' around in heavy textured combat boots cuz he desperately wants to be in a Marilyn Manson video. And when the grannies wonder what happened to him and his parents try to get him to open (hey try something normal, you might get girls); he refuses and insists on over dramatic rock tunes that talk about death and darkness (think nine inch nails and early Linkin Park). The DCEU like this goth dude, has zero friends (partly because he's alienated them: think those who loved Christopher Reeve movies and TDK) and doesn't even try to get new ones. Instead he sulks around, reads grim-dark angel comics and broods when the teacher announces a school trip. It doesn't help that the only area available for him to sit in class is the corner where he is forced to listen to girls swoon over the golden boy MCU. To the goth kid, the golden boy is everything he hates but the golden boy MCU doesn't mind the goth kid at all and even acknowledges him occasionally but the goth!DCEU just can't be bothered and just wishes he'd shut the eff up and disappear. This is cuz the MCU is tall, built like a brick and is blond with blue eyes. He's super popular with the staff, the cheer-leading squad, and even some of the losers. He has a gaggle of chad friends who high five each other in the hallway and they don't even need to try to get good grades. How can Goth!DCEU even compete? So he starts flunking gym class and the days where he has to go - he can't keep racking up detention hours forever - goth!DCEU has to watch the athletic prowess of chad!MCU. The MCU gains 14 straight wins in a row and when it's the DCEU's turn he gives a middling performance at best (Man of Steel). So goth!DCEU vows to compete academically and he thinks his magnum opus will be rewarded during the class presentation. I mean he can be a good speaker when he wants to be - yet his attempt at a philosophical thesis where he meshes Greek, Roman and Judeo-Christian ideas into a weird hodgepodge of bonkers is simply met with befuddled stares by his classmates and his teacher thinks he might be a potential cat-killer. This is clearly not the reaction goth!DCEU wanted and when the pretty girls giggle and CHAD!MCU slings an arm around one of them, goth!DCEU just loses it vowing to win the supposed battle. Chad!MCU meanwhile is perplexed and laughs some more, then his chad friends join and the teacher smirks like "SURE JAN". Emotionally embarrassed, goth!DCEU starts sending death threats and storms out the class before the teacher could call the cops. He is thus branded a weirdo though chad!MCU does admit that he feels sorry for him but it's too late cuz rumors spread about goth!DCEU about his weirdness. So Goth!DCEU retreats even further into dark, grim and brooding and for his assignment vows to add a few ironic jokes (Justice League). The entire assignment is about where he hopes to be in the future but all he wants to present is a black screen with a creepy face where you're unsure if it's laughing or frowning. However, this defiant edge-lord attitude gains him two fans (a nebbish weirdo with bad acne and a gangly sunlight deprived basket case) that go on a mission to defend him wherever they go. They memorize the dictionary for pretentious words, write long treatises and read Shakespeare to find insults to hurl. They find goth!DCEU lurking around during recess and they just go stand next to him. Goth! DCEU hates that someone even dared come near him and he moves aside but the two weird kids follow him and they show him their fan-art. They titter on like losers about how cool his outburst was and how they hate chad!MCU and as if on cue, chad!MCU walks past with his large posse and admirers, they roar in laughter and hop into his expensive billion dollar Lamborghini, a marvel to behold but little did goth! DCEU know, was that his deep murderous frown was mirrored by the two losers next to him. One of the losers then takes out a phone and plays: "you make me wanna die" revealing knife scars on his wrist and goth!DCEU gets an idea and decides to rope the two losers into it. Something which most definitely won't end well.
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Post by hobowar on Jan 20, 2018 18:43:24 GMT
1) Ultron 2) Zemo 3) Aldrich Killian 4) Joker (Heath Ledger) 5) Ego
I just thought I'd leave my top 5 here for fun.
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Post by DC-Fan on Jan 20, 2018 18:56:21 GMT
that's all anecdotal and not what we discuss - not "fact". I believe that Loki is currently more popular or even known than Zod: DUH Loki is a famous mythological character, AND was in like 4+ movies of the currently most popular CBM franchise played by a YA-audience actor. And in MCU he is not even a villain anymore, but a charming bad boy with mommy issues. No wonder MCU fans like this (see: I don't care, he killed my mom; You should not have killed my mom...or squished my Walkman etc). General Zod was a character in 1 film and was a genocidal asshole - a good adult villain, leader and antagonist without mommy/daddy issue motivation, and who does not go good-side. Loki is like EmoRen in the sequels: a good character for the YA crowd (probably the best in MCU considering the bland, formulaic hero characterizations), but he's a shitty, clownish and ineffective villain. Hey man, you can make up whatever excuses you want. In the end, Loki is still a much more recognizable name than Zod and is considered by majority of people to be the better villain by a good margin. That must irritate you to no end. Nope. Loki is considered by the majority of people to be a joke, just like Ronan the Big Bad Destroyer (who was defeated by a silly Dance-Off) and most of MCU's villains. Zod is considered by the majority of people to be the better villain by a good margin. In fact, just as Wonder Woman is better than ALL MCU movies, Zod is a better villain than ALL MCU villains. That definitely irritates MCU fans to no end.
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Post by DC-Fan on Jan 20, 2018 18:58:02 GMT
If those other studios gave us good heroes so we'd know the attention was going somewhere it would be one thing, but when you fail with a hero AND a villain then you deserve criticism. 1. That’s utterly subjective, of course, as all of this is. I quite enjoyed BvS and found Supes, Bats, and Luthor in that all more interesting than Thor, Iron Man after #1, or [most of] Marvel’s villains. I’m willing to concede that’s an idiosyncratic opinion, but that’s the point: we’re talking subjectively, not objectively. 2. Non sequitur. Your reasoning does not follow from the premise on which this thread is operating. The OP wrote, “We’ve had 5 movies at this point and we still don’t have a villain that’s even half as good as Marvel's worst”—not “hero and villain have failed,” only villains. The point stands. QED. formersamhmd just got owned!
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Post by scabab on Jan 20, 2018 19:15:24 GMT
Loki is considered by the majority of people to be a joke, just like Ronan the Big Bad Destroyer (who was defeated by a silly Dance-Off) and most of MCU's villains. Zod is considered by the majority of people to be the better villain by a good margin. There ain't no way that the majority thinks Zod is a better villain than Loki. Loki is easily the most popular villain out of all the MCU and DCEU villains. In modern times his popularity is only exceeded by Heath Ledgers Joker.
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Post by DC-Fan on Jan 20, 2018 19:18:37 GMT
Loki is considered by the majority of people to be a joke, just like Ronan the Big Bad Destroyer (who was defeated by a silly Dance-Off) and most of MCU's villains. Zod is considered by the majority of people to be the better villain by a good margin. There ain't no way that the majority thinks Zod is a better villain than Loki. Loki is easily the most popular villain out of all the MCU and DCEU villains. In modern times his popularity is only exceeded by Heath Ledgers Joker. Loki's entire motivation for being a villain is "I was adopted and Daddy Odin loved Thor more than me." And Loki became a joke the moment that Hulk tossed him around like a rag doll.
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Post by formersamhmd on Jan 20, 2018 19:20:04 GMT
]Nope. Loki is considered by the majority of people to be a Well-done villain. Mediocre, but because Cavill is worse he's still memorable. Being "best of the worst" isn't admirable.
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Post by Nalkarj on Jan 20, 2018 19:25:28 GMT
There ain't no way that the majority thinks Zod is a better villain than Loki. Loki is easily the most popular villain out of all the MCU and DCEU villains. In modern times his popularity is only exceeded by Heath Ledgers Joker. Loki's entire motivation for being a villain is "I was adopted and Daddy Odin loved Thor more than me." And Loki became a joke the moment that Hulk tossed him around like a rag doll. I don’t think scabab is talking about individual judgments of Loki but, rather, who seems the most popular. As I noted, I really liked BvS, but I’m fully aware that many people, even some critics and people here I greatly respect, hated it. De gustibus and all that, but it doesn’t factor into popularity or “what the majority think.”
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Post by charzhino on Jan 20, 2018 19:29:54 GMT
Zod is better than every MCU villain.
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Post by hobowar on Jan 20, 2018 19:36:37 GMT
Zod is better than every MCU villain. What did Zod do that was so impressive? All of his dialogue was horrendous and he never felt like a threat to anyone (Superman killed way more innocent people than he did). Ultron, Zemo and a handful other MCU villains have him beat in terms of gravias and character depth in my opinion.
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Post by charzhino on Jan 20, 2018 19:38:41 GMT
Zod is better than every MCU villain. What did Zod do that was so impressive? All of his dialogue was horrendous and he never felt like a threat to anyone (Superman killed way more innocent people than he did). Ultron, Zemo and a handful other MCU villains have him beat in terms of gravias and character depth in my opinion. His dialogue during the end fight is more sinister than anything Zemo said. Ultron was a comedian so it rules him out altogther.
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Post by formersamhmd on Jan 20, 2018 19:41:25 GMT
Zod is better than every MCU villain. Well, if you're only counting Whiplash, Yellowjacket, and Malekith.
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Post by formersamhmd on Jan 20, 2018 19:42:16 GMT
What did Zod do that was so impressive? All of his dialogue was horrendous and he never felt like a threat to anyone (Superman killed way more innocent people than he did). Ultron, Zemo and a handful other MCU villains have him beat in terms of gravias and character depth in my opinion. His dialogue during the end fight is more sinister than anything Zemo said. Ultron was a comedian so it rules him out altogther. Don't watch Die Hard, you'll hate Hans Gruber for having levity. Zemo is everything Luthor should have been in BvS.
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Post by hobowar on Jan 20, 2018 19:48:45 GMT
What did Zod do that was so impressive? All of his dialogue was horrendous and he never felt like a threat to anyone (Superman killed way more innocent people than he did). Ultron, Zemo and a handful other MCU villains have him beat in terms of gravias and character depth in my opinion. His dialogue during the end fight is more sinister than anything Zemo said. Ultron was a comedian so it rules him out altogther. Ultron: "Clearly you've never made an omelette." There's more character and seriousness here than in anything Zod says or does.
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Post by seahawksraawk00 on Jan 20, 2018 20:22:04 GMT
Even? Na. None of DCEU's villains even come close to Ego and Hella, let alone Loki. At most, Zod can compare to a mid-tier MCU villain like IronMonger or Red Skull. The rest of the DCEU villains are either at par with the lowest MCU villains or even worse. After all, Enchantress is more cringe-worthy than any MCU villain. Nope. None of MCU's villain even come close to Zod. Just as Wonder Woman is better than ALL MCU movies, Zod is better than ALL MCU villains. That's just your opinion, NOT a fact
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Post by DC-Fan on Jan 20, 2018 21:52:48 GMT
Zod is better than every MCU villain. Agreed.
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Post by seahawksraawk00 on Jan 20, 2018 22:10:42 GMT
Zod is better than every MCU villain. That's a matter of opinion, not fact.
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Post by scabab on Jan 20, 2018 22:33:20 GMT
I don’t think scabab is talking about individual judgments of Loki but, rather, who seems the most popular. Indeed, you can have your opinions on who is the better character but Loki is certainly more popular. They keep bringing him back over and over.
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Post by hobowar on Jan 20, 2018 22:40:20 GMT
What did Zod do that was so impressive? All of his dialogue was horrendous and he never felt like a threat to anyone (Superman killed way more innocent people than he did). Ultron, Zemo and a handful other MCU villains have him beat in terms of gravias and character depth in my opinion. His dialogue during the end fight is more sinister than anything Zemo said. Ultron was a comedian so it rules him out altogther. Ultron. "I'm sorry, I know you mean well. You just didn't think it through. You want to protect the world but you don't want it to change. How is humanity saved if it's not allowed to... evolve? Natasha: When you two programmed him to protect the human race, you amazingly failed. Bruce Banner: They don't need to be protected, they need to evolve. Steve Rogers: Ultron thinks we're monsters, that we're what's wrong with the world. This isn't just about beating him, it's about whether he's right. Ultron: Stark asked for a savior, and settled for a slave. I might be wrong here, but for my money, I think Ultron had more character and thematic depth than any of the DC villains (Or heroes for that matter)
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