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Post by Deleted on Feb 5, 2018 23:12:48 GMT
The article isn't 100% accurate. Hitler was not a Christian. He certainly wasn't an atheist, either. Hitler's belief system was so complicated and erratic (not to mention the fact that it seems to have evolved) that we should actually start a thread on this board called "Try to classify Hitler's spiritual beliefs if you want to be proven wrong." It's a more mystifying topic than asking what The Holy Spirit is. But regardless of that, my argument isn't based specifically on Pol Pot or Big Brother, individually. My argument is based on governments that have proclaimed an atheistic approach to governing. North Korea is a great, current example. I don't know Rocket Man's personal belief system; what I do know is the line his state operates by. Yeah, we had that thread a couple of times on the old board and it got really heated. The point is though, that the article promotes the idea that people who see atheism as a 'religion' of sorts claim that these leaders merely exchange the religion of political ideology of a regime without a religion with a new ideological religion. I don't view atheism as a religion.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 5, 2018 23:22:51 GMT
What about the fact that inter-racial marriage wasn't fully legal in the US until after the State vs Loving in '67. That's all white people. There were plenty of races in the US, including better white people, that were perfectly fine with marrying each other until a bunch of rednecks saw it differently. That's the problem with rednecks
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Post by cupcakes on Feb 6, 2018 20:14:47 GMT
tpfkar The article isn't 100% accurate. Hitler was not a Christian. He certainly wasn't an atheist, either. Hitler's belief system was so complicated and erratic (not to mention the fact that it seems to have evolved) that we should actually start a thread on this board called "Try to classify Hitler's spiritual beliefs if you want to be proven wrong." It's a more mystifying topic than asking what The Holy Spirit is. But regardless of that, my argument isn't based specifically on Pol Pot or Big Brother, individually. My argument is based on governments that have proclaimed an atheistic approach to governing. North Korea is a great, current example. I don't know Rocket Man's personal belief system; what I do know is the line his state operates by. The religion of Great Man, Who Descended From Heaven. Papa Joe
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Post by goz on Feb 6, 2018 21:24:26 GMT
Yeah, we had that thread a couple of times on the old board and it got really heated. The point is though, that the article promotes the idea that people who see atheism as a 'religion' of sorts claim that these leaders merely exchange the religion of political ideology of a regime without a religion with a new ideological religion. I don't view atheism as a religion. Good, then you will further understand that leaders of countries such as USSR, China, North Korea merely see religion as alternative for people which will split their loyalty when the goal of Communism is extremist nationality and loyalty to the government and in the case of Nth Korea, its leaders. It has really nothing much to do with individual atheism and to me it is a misnomer to talk about 'atheist governments or regimes'.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 6, 2018 21:26:07 GMT
I don't view atheism as a religion. Good, then you will further understand that leaders of countries such as USSR, China, North Korea merely see religion as alternative for people which will split their loyalty when the goal of Communism is extremist nationality and loyalty to the government and in the case of Nth Korea, its leaders. It has really nothing much to do with individual atheism and to me it is a misnomer to talk about 'atheist governments or regimes'. Maybe, but if it walks like a duck....
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Post by goz on Feb 6, 2018 22:12:27 GMT
Good, then you will further understand that leaders of countries such as USSR, China, North Korea merely see religion as alternative for people which will split their loyalty when the goal of Communism is extremist nationality and loyalty to the government and in the case of Nth Korea, its leaders. It has really nothing much to do with individual atheism and to me it is a misnomer to talk about 'atheist governments or regimes'. Maybe, but if it walks like a duck.... You see, I have never understood the veracity of that saying. It literally means that if you take one characteristic of something that it is applicable overall. Geese walk like ducks. Many countries neither have a state religion nor promote any ( like USA and the point of this thread) and yet you choose communist or previously communist countries to apply the epithet 'atheist'. Is this perhaps a manifestation of a fundamentalist American misunderstanding BOTH the terms atheist and communist and conflating them?
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Post by Deleted on Feb 6, 2018 22:40:37 GMT
Maybe, but if it walks like a duck.... You see, I have never understood the veracity of that saying. It literally means that if you take one characteristic of something that it is applicable overall. Geese walk like ducks. Many countries neither have a state religion nor promote any ( like USA and the point of this thread) and yet you choose communist or previously communist countries to apply the epithet 'atheist'. Is this perhaps a manifestation of a fundamentalist American misunderstanding BOTH the terms atheist and communist and conflating them? Difficult to conflate an economic system with one that deals exclusively with religion. The saying simply means that if one thing takes on all the appearances and characteristics of something else, then it probably is that something else. I chose the regime examples I chose because the states themselves operated as atheistic governors. Don't blame me for choosing Communist regimes as examples. They are the ones who wanted to promote atheism, even if it meant wrongful imprisonment and loss of life. It's just one of several reasons why all Communist regimes fail eventually.
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Post by gadreel on Feb 6, 2018 22:42:48 GMT
Maybe, but if it walks like a duck.... You see, I have never understood the veracity of that saying. It literally means that if you take one characteristic of something that it is applicable overall. Geese walk like ducks. Many countries neither have a state religion nor promote any ( like USA and the point of this thread) and yet you choose communist or previously communist countries to apply the epithet 'atheist'. Is this perhaps a manifestation of a fundamentalist American misunderstanding BOTH the terms atheist and communist and conflating them? The danger of taking proverbs, sayings, or the like literally. EDIT : Moreover of course the full quote is: If it looks like a duck, swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck, then it probably is a duck.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 6, 2018 22:43:22 GMT
Maybe, but if it walks like a duck.... You see, I have never understood the veracity of that saying. It literally means that if you take one characteristic of something that it is applicable overall. Geese walk like ducks. Many countries neither have a state religion nor promote any ( like USA and the point of this thread) and yet you choose communist or previously communist countries to apply the epithet 'atheist'. Is this perhaps a manifestation of a fundamentalist American misunderstanding BOTH the terms atheist and communist and conflating them? Now that you mention it, I'm not aware of any other state system that has punished its citizens for practicing any and all religions except for Communism. So...what are some examples?
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Post by goz on Feb 6, 2018 23:03:11 GMT
You see, I have never understood the veracity of that saying. It literally means that if you take one characteristic of something that it is applicable overall. Geese walk like ducks. Many countries neither have a state religion nor promote any ( like USA and the point of this thread) and yet you choose communist or previously communist countries to apply the epithet 'atheist'. Is this perhaps a manifestation of a fundamentalist American misunderstanding BOTH the terms atheist and communist and conflating them? Now that you mention it, I'm not aware of any other state system that has punished its citizens for practicing any and all religions except for Communism. So...what are some examples?
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Post by Deleted on Feb 6, 2018 23:07:06 GMT
Now that you mention it, I'm not aware of any other state system that has punished its citizens for practicing any and all religions except for Communism. So...what are some examples? You seem to have a fundamental misunderstanding of the Spanish Inquisition if you see it as an example of a state that punished it citizens for following any religion.
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Post by goz on Feb 6, 2018 23:22:56 GMT
You see, I have never understood the veracity of that saying. It literally means that if you take one characteristic of something that it is applicable overall. Geese walk like ducks. Many countries neither have a state religion nor promote any ( like USA and the point of this thread) and yet you choose communist or previously communist countries to apply the epithet 'atheist'. Is this perhaps a manifestation of a fundamentalist American misunderstanding BOTH the terms atheist and communist and conflating them? Now that you mention it, I'm not aware of any other state system that has punished its citizens for practicing any and all religions except for Communism. So...what are some examples? www.theguardian.com/world/2017/dec/14/6700-rohingya-muslims-killed-in-attacks-in-myanmar-says-medecins-sans-frontiers
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Post by Deleted on Feb 6, 2018 23:24:32 GMT
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Post by goz on Feb 6, 2018 23:26:11 GMT
You seem to have a fundamental misunderstanding of the Spanish Inquisition if you see it as an example of a state that punished it citizens for following any religion. You mean the Inquisition which was originally intended primarily to identify heretics among those who converted from Judaism and Islam to Catholicism?
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Post by goz on Feb 6, 2018 23:26:55 GMT
The link title says enough.
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Post by MCDemuth on Feb 6, 2018 23:47:12 GMT
Nope. Christmas is a federal holiday here. I'm not sure what the point of that is. So is New Year's Day, MLK Day, President's Day, Memorial Day, Independence Day, Labor Day, Columbus Day, Veterans' Day and Thanksgiving. The government can't have a Federal holiday on a religious occasion? Actually, Christmas is about celebrating the Birth Of Christ, which many greedy children could not give a shit about. They just want their toys... (And some adults too!) I completely understand, why the government created this religious holiday... If they didn't, half the American workforce would not show up for work on the day, and there would be nothing that business owners could do about it... So why not just give everyone the day off, and make it fair for non Christians too. It's easier that way... But, where are all the other federal religious holidays from other religions?Why just "Christ"mas?
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Post by Deleted on Feb 7, 2018 0:01:07 GMT
You seem to have a fundamental misunderstanding of the Spanish Inquisition if you see it as an example of a state that punished it citizens for following any religion. You mean the Inquisition which was originally intended primarily to identify heretics among those who converted from Judaism and Islam to Catholicism? I do. I think there's a misunderstanding, so I'll rephrase the question. When I say "punished its citizens for following any religion," what I mean is that the citizens are punished for following religion of any kind, no matter what religion it is that they were following." You seem to be interpreting my statement more loosely. So, going back to my original question, can you name a state in the history of mankind that punished its citizens for following a religion, regardless of what religion it was? (The reason why the Spanish Inquisition is not a legitimate answer is because they were not punishing people who followed the religion the state supported, in that case, Catholicism). So what state punished Buddhists, Christians, Taoists, Muslims, Jews, Parsi, Hindus, etc. all the same way?
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Post by Deleted on Feb 7, 2018 0:02:15 GMT
The link title says enough. Read my other post. I'm not asking you to name states where one or two particular religions are picked on. I'm asking you to name a state where all religions are persecuted equally.
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Post by goz on Feb 7, 2018 1:20:17 GMT
You mean the Inquisition which was originally intended primarily to identify heretics among those who converted from Judaism and Islam to Catholicism? I do. I think there's a misunderstanding, so I'll rephrase the question. When I say "punished its citizens for following any religion," what I mean is that the citizens are punished for following religion of any kind, no matter what religion it is that they were following." You seem to be interpreting my statement more loosely. So, going back to my original question, can you name a state in the history of mankind that punished its citizens for following a religion, regardless of what religion it was? (The reason why the Spanish Inquisition is not a legitimate answer is because they were not punishing people who followed the religion the state supported, in that case, Catholicism). So what state punished Buddhists, Christians, Taoists, Muslims, Jews, Parsi, Hindus, etc. all the same way? Nice deflection. Let's re-phrase the question so I am more likely to get the answer I am fishing for to make a spurious point! If you say clearly what you mean, I wouldn't have to interpret it.....hey! ...much like the Bible! LOL
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Post by Deleted on Feb 7, 2018 15:59:06 GMT
I do. I think there's a misunderstanding, so I'll rephrase the question. When I say "punished its citizens for following any religion," what I mean is that the citizens are punished for following religion of any kind, no matter what religion it is that they were following." You seem to be interpreting my statement more loosely. So, going back to my original question, can you name a state in the history of mankind that punished its citizens for following a religion, regardless of what religion it was? (The reason why the Spanish Inquisition is not a legitimate answer is because they were not punishing people who followed the religion the state supported, in that case, Catholicism). So what state punished Buddhists, Christians, Taoists, Muslims, Jews, Parsi, Hindus, etc. all the same way? Nice deflection. Let's re-phrase the question so I am more likely to get the answer I am fishing for to make a spurious point! If you say clearly what you mean, I wouldn't have to interpret it.....hey! ...much like the Bible! LOL I thought I was pretty clear when asked for an example of a state that punishes its citizens for practicing "any religion." So anyway, now that you know what I am asking, can you name one that has done so besides a Communist regime?
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