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Post by Deleted on Mar 19, 2018 20:32:17 GMT
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Post by lenlenlen1 on Mar 20, 2018 18:26:57 GMT
No, he's more than Stan Lee. Way more. There's every reason to believe that he is the true mastermind behind that duo, and an innovator in the comic book art form. Perhaps, and this is not hyperbole, the single greatest artist and contributor to the American comic book art form ever.
Stan Lee was just more vocal and good at taking credit. Stan Lee is a sales man, he sells himself and his product. But outside of the 10 to 15 year period of time when he worked with Kirby he hasn't really done anything. Do some research and take a look. Just about everyone in the know says so.
This is the one time where I can honestly say without a doubt that Kirby deserves all the praise he gets. YOU'RE favorite artists were all influenced by Kirby.
By the way, referring to Kirby as a traitor shows a total lack of knowledge of the situation. Marvel screwed him in so many ways and continued to do so until he died. And as for doing work for both DC and Marvel... EVERYONE does it. John Romita Jr who never did a day of work for DC his whole life... is now at DC. Michael Brian Bendis who never did a day of work for DC his whole life... is now at DC. etc. etc. It happens.
Crayons don't factor into it at all.
I wouldn't disagree that Kirby was the greatest, most important and influential comic books artists of his time, perhaps ever. But I don't think Lee's contribution should be downplayed. Between them they created some of the best characters Marvel (comic books in general) had. Lee may have been the face and voice of Marvel, and Kirby was a bit of of an introvert and wasn't interested in that part of the game, but together they made a great pairing. Nothing he did for DC on his own can compare with the work he did at Marvel. Fair enough. Though he did create Captain America with Joe Simon, not Stan Lee. And he did create the entire Fourth World of the New Gods including DarkSeid at DC all alone, not to mention the Demon and Kamandi. His influence IMO is greater than Stan's. Together they were amazing. Apart Kirby is still amazing.
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Post by harpospoke on Mar 20, 2018 20:28:23 GMT
I wouldn't disagree that Kirby was the greatest, most important and influential comic books artists of his time, perhaps ever. But I don't think Lee's contribution should be downplayed. Between them they created some of the best characters Marvel (comic books in general) had. Lee may have been the face and voice of Marvel, and Kirby was a bit of of an introvert and wasn't interested in that part of the game, but together they made a great pairing. Nothing he did for DC on his own can compare with the work he did at Marvel. Fair enough. Though he did create Captain America with Joe Simon, not Stan Lee. And he did create the entire Fourth World of the New Gods including DarkSeid at DC all alone, not to mention the Demon and Kamandi. His influence IMO is greater than Stan's. Together they were amazing. Apart Kirby is still amazing. There's that "New Gods" thing. Not really something people know about. Now...Spider-Man and Dr Strange are characters that people actually know about and Lee didn't need Kirby for those. As long as Lee was in the room in the 60s, Marvel turned out iconic characters. Kirby somehow didn't start doing that until he was in the room with Lee. Lee even improved Kirby and Simon's Capt America (a dead character at the time). Kirby revolutionized art work in comics and that should be enough. Lee revolutionized comics period with his ideas and that's a bit bigger.
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Post by Primemovermithrax Pejorative on Mar 20, 2018 20:56:39 GMT
Kirby appears to have done most of the creative work for Marvel--along with some important contributions by Ditko (Spider-man, Iron Man's costume, the Hulk). Lee was mostly the editorial overseer--the Marvel Method works in a way where the artist does most of the plotting.
From the sound of it, Martin Goodman is the one who screwed over the artists at Marvel, Lee was just covering his ass to stay employed and relevant-and as Marvel became the corporate giant he had to claim more credit or be sidelined himself. Not to say that Lee doesn't have a big ego, but sounds like it was more in check than Bob Kane's.
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Post by politicidal on Mar 20, 2018 23:33:05 GMT
I don't think so. Then again there's always the one.
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Post by Hauntedknight87 on Mar 21, 2018 18:09:33 GMT
Thor Ragnarok was a visual love letter to Kirby.
Marvel and Kirby had their gripes with each other, but at least he's getting the rightful credit and praise. That's more than what Bill Finger got.
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Post by lenlenlen1 on Mar 23, 2018 18:33:29 GMT
Fair enough. Though he did create Captain America with Joe Simon, not Stan Lee. And he did create the entire Fourth World of the New Gods including DarkSeid at DC all alone, not to mention the Demon and Kamandi. His influence IMO is greater than Stan's. Together they were amazing. Apart Kirby is still amazing. There's that "New Gods" thing. Not really something people know about. Now...Spider-Man and Dr Strange are characters that people actually know about and Lee didn't need Kirby for those. As long as Lee was in the room in the 60s, Marvel turned out iconic characters. Kirby somehow didn't start doing that until he was in the room with Lee. Lee even improved Kirby and Simon's Capt America (a dead character at the time). Kirby revolutionized art work in comics and that should be enough. Lee revolutionized comics period with his ideas and that's a bit bigger.
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Post by lenlenlen1 on Mar 23, 2018 18:47:35 GMT
Fair enough. Though he did create Captain America with Joe Simon, not Stan Lee. And he did create the entire Fourth World of the New Gods including DarkSeid at DC all alone, not to mention the Demon and Kamandi. His influence IMO is greater than Stan's. Together they were amazing. Apart Kirby is still amazing. There's that "New Gods" thing. Not really something people know about. Now...Spider-Man and Dr Strange are characters that people actually know about and Lee didn't need Kirby for those. As long as Lee was in the room in the 60s, Marvel turned out iconic characters. Kirby somehow didn't start doing that until he was in the room with Lee. Lee even improved Kirby and Simon's Capt America (a dead character at the time). Kirby revolutionized art work in comics and that should be enough. Lee revolutionized comics period with his ideas and that's a bit bigger. So you're saying YOU don't know about the New Gods. Anyone who's into comics knows the New Gods.
Spider Man was well known, yes, but Dr. Strange not as much as you make it seem.
And you're not completely accurate about Lee not needing Kirby for Spider Man and Dr. Strange. Instead he needed Steve Ditko for that. Not to mention all the input that Kirby put into Spider Man that he didn't get credit for.
As for Captain America being improved by Lee... debatable. More like all he did was bring the character into the present.
The things you attribute to Lee are actually things MOSTLY Kirby did, except Lee has a bigger mouth and has re-written history to take credit for more than he actually did. And with Kirby dead, who's to say otherwise.
Its important to remember the "Marvel method" of making comics at that time. It was an assembly style bullpen. Lee would come up with the barest thinnest of plots. The Artists would flesh it out with their artwork. Essentially they were the ones writing the stories based on a paragraphs worth of information or plot. They would turn his paragraph into 24 pages of story and art! And then Lee would add dialogue. All the artists at Marvel in those early days worked harder than he did. They'd draw SEVERAL comics books a month (Kirby even WEEKLY!), whereas now artists complain about drawing one comic a month.
I don't mean this in a fresh way, but seriously do some research, read some books, just about every comics historian agrees... It was always more like Kirby 70%, Lee 30%. Kirby's influence in American comics overall is far greater than Lee's.
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Post by harpospoke on Mar 23, 2018 20:33:44 GMT
There's that "New Gods" thing. Not really something people know about. Now...Spider-Man and Dr Strange are characters that people actually know about and Lee didn't need Kirby for those. As long as Lee was in the room in the 60s, Marvel turned out iconic characters. Kirby somehow didn't start doing that until he was in the room with Lee. Lee even improved Kirby and Simon's Capt America (a dead character at the time). Kirby revolutionized art work in comics and that should be enough. Lee revolutionized comics period with his ideas and that's a bit bigger. So you're saying YOU don't know about the New Gods. Anyone who's into comics knows the New Gods. No....I said what I said instead of what you wrote. Of course comics fans in general have a general awareness of the New Gods. They also know about Mirror Master and Paste Pot Pete. I was talking about characters that are known in general pop culture. Kirby's New Gods....not in that category.
Spider Man was well known, yes, but Dr. Strange not as much as you make it seem.
And you're not completely accurate about Lee not needing Kirby for Spider Man and Dr. Strange. Instead he needed Steve Ditko for that. Not to mention all the input that Kirby put into Spider Man that he didn't get credit for.
As for Captain America being improved by Lee... debatable. More like all he did was bring the character into the present.
The things you attribute to Lee are actually things MOSTLY Kirby did, except Lee has a bigger mouth and has re-written history to take credit for more than he actually did. And with Kirby dead, who's to say otherwise.
Its important to remember the "Marvel method" of making comics at that time. It was an assembly style bullpen. Lee would come up with the barest thinnest of plots. The Artists would flesh it out with their artwork. Essentially they were the ones writing the stories based on a paragraphs worth of information or plot. They would turn his paragraph into 24 pages of story and art! And then Lee would add dialogue. All the artists at Marvel in those early days worked harder than he did. They'd draw SEVERAL comics books a month (Kirby even WEEKLY!), whereas now artists complain about drawing one comic a month.
I don't mean this in a fresh way, but seriously do some research, read some books, just about every comics historian agrees... It was always more like Kirby 70%, Lee 30%. Kirby's influence in American comics overall is far greater than Lee's. Of course I know all about that. But you are wedging two unrelated things together. Lee came up with the concepts for the characters. He did it with every artist he worked with. They came up with the costumes. But it all had to start with "A teen character that isn't a sidekick and has real problems...called Spider-Man". Lee did that over and over again and he didn't need Kirby in the room to do it. That's a different thing than writing the books every month, isn't it? Later, Lee would give the outline and let the artists draw the entire book for him to come in afterward and fill in the dialog. Great idea to do that....by Lee of course. And it wasn't because "Stan wasn't working hard" as you claim...it's because his workload was too much to write all the books every month. Is there a reason why you left out that detail? And how do we know about that? Because Stan Lee told everyone about it. That's the guy you claim was taking credit for everything. Maybe you should do some research? I don't think it's debatable at all that Lee improved Capt America. The character was in the dustbin. Lee brought him back and added the fish-out-of-water element that has been the crucial character trait for the character ever since. Dr Strange was certainly a big enough deal to have a crappy movie made about him in the 70s. So he was a known character.
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Post by taylorfirst1 on Mar 23, 2018 20:41:32 GMT
Jack Kirby gets all of the credit he deserves. Marvel fans love his work. Stan Lee gives him credit every time he's asked about it. There is no controversy here.
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