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Post by Deleted on Nov 20, 2018 3:13:42 GMT
Whom did Chewie put on the stretcher? I thought Han had fallen down the shaft to his doom, continuing a Star Wars traditions of characters falling down shafts to their dooms. Fin, I think
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Post by Nalkarj on Nov 20, 2018 3:15:12 GMT
Thoughts on Rey? She’s been quite the polarizing character! Sure, I’ve just got a few minutes left, and then I’ll sum up.
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Post by Nalkarj on Nov 20, 2018 3:18:33 GMT
And there’s Obi-Wan Kenobi–I mean, Qui-Gonn Jinn–I mean, Mark Hamill looking a million years old.
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Post by Nalkarj on Nov 20, 2018 3:37:27 GMT
OK, so, uh, yeah, it’s over. And I was posting really rapidly on this one, because it gave me so much to post about.
Star Wars was fun, Empire amazing, and Jedi endearing, in that it wrapped everything up. The Phantom Menace was flawed but impressive, Attack of the Clones highly flawed but interesting, and Sith an unqualified success.
This gives me the feeling of infuriation more than anything. There are so many good things here, and nearly every one is squandered. It’s not a horrible movie by any means, but its weaknesses override its strengths.
OK, Daisy Ridley. I like her, and she’s not bad in the part. She’s never given anything memorable or interesting to say, but she does fine with what she’s given. But the writers have written a godawful character. We get no idea who she is, we get no look into her thoughts or emotions or cares, we get a cardboard figure. You have to sketch characters out, even if you sketch them lightly. We can guess and read anything we want into Indiana Jones, not a terribly fleshed-out character– but we don’t even get that opportunity with Ray, because she hardly gets a moment to be herself. And she’s perfect, which is even more annoying. It was a fairly good gag when the mind-control didn’t work–until it did! Huh? Luke couldn’t even do that, but she can? Build up to her ability to do this, if you have to, and don’t emphasize it. Whatever you do, don’t draw attention to it. Three writers and they couldn’t figure that out?
The villain stinks. I’m sorry, he’s just the pits. None of the acting is convincing, the design is uproarious, and he’s never threatening outside of the [POINTLESS!] opening scene. He’s horrible at emoting and acts like a spoiled little kid; in fact, Veruca Salt would have been a better villain. That he is the character allowed to kill Han Solo is ludicrous.
I’ve written my thoughts on the other characters before. Poe [?] wasn’t well-used, which is too bad because I think they did a good job with him. Han and Fin seem like one writer took over halfway through and completely altered their characters. Very disappointing.
The designs in many scenes were beautiful, well-composed. The opening sequences had a great Star Wars vibe. And then that was squandered too: we got a Harry Potter movie. There’s some smart stuff here, but none of it ever comes together, and the ending is dreadful.
Seriously: Han dies, and no one cares? Huh? Leia doesn’t even do anything but feel a “jolt,” like Guinness in the first one, and then smile wistfully.
None of it seems to have any scale, something at which the prequels succeeded masterly. It feels awfully small for a movie this big.
There are a lot of scenes that I found fun, where I had a smile on my face–mostly involving Han. Then the ending pops up.
TL;DR: The original trilogy and Revenge of the Sith made me want to watch them again. This movie makes me want to watch the original trilogy and Revenge of the Sith again.
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Post by Nalkarj on Nov 20, 2018 3:38:36 GMT
OK, coldenhaulfield, I’m ready: excommunicate me for saying a few nice things about it.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 20, 2018 4:57:11 GMT
OK, so, uh, yeah, it’s over. And I was posting really rapidly on this one, because it gave me so much to post about. Star Wars was fun, Empire amazing, and Jedi endearing, in that it wrapped everything up. The Phantom Menace was flawed but impressive, Attack of the Clones highly flawed but interesting, and Sith an unqualified success. This gives me the feeling of infuriation more than anything. There are so many good things here, and nearly every one is squandered. It’s not a horrible movie by any means, but its weaknesses override its strengths. OK, Daisy Ridley. I like her, and she’s not bad in the part. She’s never given anything memorable or interesting to say, but she does fine with what she’s given. But the writers have written a godawful character. We get no idea who she is, we get no look into her thoughts or emotions or cares, we get a cardboard figure. You have to sketch characters out, even if you sketch them lightly. We can guess and read anything we want into Indiana Jones, not a terribly fleshed-out character– but we don’t even get that opportunity with Ray, because she hardly gets a moment to be herself. And she’s perfect, which is even more annoying. It was a fairly good gag when the mind-control didn’t work–until it did! Huh? Luke couldn’t even do that, but she can? Build up to her ability to do this, if you have to, and don’t emphasize it. Whatever you do, don’t draw attention to it. Three writers and they couldn’t figure that out? The villain stinks. I’m sorry, he’s just the pits. None of the acting is convincing, the design is uproarious, and he’s never threatening outside of the [POINTLESS!] opening scene. He’s horrible at emoting and acts like a spoiled little kid; in fact, Veruca Salt would have been a better villain. That he is the character allowed to kill Han Solo is ludicrous. I’ve written my thoughts on the other characters before. Poe [?] wasn’t well-used, which is too bad because I think they did a good job with him. Han and Fin seem like one writer took over halfway through and completely altered their characters. Very disappointing. The designs in many scenes were beautiful, well-composed. The opening sequences had a great Star Wars vibe. And then that was squandered too: we got a Harry Potter movie. There’s some smart stuff here, but none of it ever comes together, and the ending is dreadful. Seriously: Han dies, and no one cares? Huh? Leia doesn’t even do anything but feel a “jolt,” like Guinness in the first one, and then smile wistfully. None of it seems to have any scale, something at which the prequels succeeded masterly. It feels awfully small for a movie this big. There are a lot of fun that I found fun, where I had a smile on my face–mostly involving Han. Then the ending pops up. TL;DR: The original trilogy and Revenge of the Sith made me want to watch them again. This movie makes me want to watch the original trilogy and Revenge of the Sith again. I hate to say it, but The Last Jedi is considerably worse! Watch it!!!!&!!!
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Post by Nalkarj on Nov 20, 2018 4:59:10 GMT
I hate to say it, but The Last Jedi is considerably worse! Watch it!!!!&!!! Well, after those words of encouragement, how can I not watch it? Seriously, I didn’t hate this movie, it just annoyed me at its waste of good elements. What do you think about it? I’m just happy I’m only excommunicated from the Church of Colden, not stood up against the wall and shot as a traitor (yet).
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Post by Nalkarj on Nov 20, 2018 5:01:41 GMT
Ah, and @forceghostackbar, seriously, if The Last Jedi is still on Netflix after Thanksgiving I’ll probably take a look at it then.
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Post by President Ackbar™ on Nov 20, 2018 5:02:53 GMT
Ah, and @forceghostackbar , seriously, if The Last Jedi is still on Netflix after Thanksgiving I’ll probably take a look at it then. BECAUSE IT'S A TURKEY !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!123
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Post by Hauntedknight87 on Nov 20, 2018 11:40:12 GMT
Nalkarj did you watch Rogue One at all?
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Post by ryboto on Nov 20, 2018 13:27:09 GMT
None of it seems to have any scale, something at which the prequels succeeded masterly. It feels awfully small for a movie this big. I'm very entertained by this thread. I agree, and share your experience, granted, I'd seen the movies long ago. Still, it's ALWAYS refreshing to relate to someone regarding this franchise. None of my coworkers care, they just say "it's ok, it's Star Wars, it's always silly". Anyway, the scale was indeed utterly small and confusing. I mean, trainwreck of a plot and terrible characters aside, the lack of any world building means there's no reference point for the viewer to grab on to and we either accept it and chew our popcorn, or you have your suspension of disbelief ruined.
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Post by Nalkarj on Nov 20, 2018 14:00:33 GMT
Nalkarj did you watch Rogue One at all? Not yet.
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Post by Primemovermithrax Pejorative on Nov 20, 2018 14:36:25 GMT
Star Wars really went beta and not in the video format way.
Gary Kurtz seemed to like Rogue One.
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Post by No Morpho, Only Bánh mì on Nov 20, 2018 15:00:23 GMT
Nalkarj did you watch Rogue One at all? Not yet. If you’re doing release order, which you have been, do it next- it and TLJ are both on Netflix now, though for story’s sake, you may want to continue with Jedi next, then go to R1, which leads directly into the opening of Star Wars ‘77...
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Post by Deleted on Nov 20, 2018 18:38:07 GMT
I hate to say it, but The Last Jedi is considerably worse! Watch it!!!!&!!! Well, after those words of encouragement, how can I not watch it? Seriously, I didn’t hate this movie, it just annoyed me at its waste of good elements. What do you think about it?I’m just happy I’m only excommunicated from the Church of Colden, not stood up against the wall and shot as a traitor (yet). My thoughts are very similar to your own: It did a handful of things right and a whole rebel cruiser of things wrong... The retro-style directing and cinematography is a huge win. Shot on film! Practical FX are a big plus. Han is (mostly) well done. The actors are all fine. I dare even say I found Daisy and Boyega very likable in this one... But, the characters are just plain awful. Rey is a one dimensional Mary Sue and Finn is nothing more than a buffoon meant to make her look good. Then there's the fact that it's all a big rehash. Even the planets are knock off versions of places we have seen. And overall it just really lacked any and all imagination and whimsy. It's just so small, flat, boring, predictable and lifeless.
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Post by Nalkarj on Nov 20, 2018 19:06:55 GMT
The retro-style directing and cinematography is a huge win. Shot on film! Practical FX are a big plus. Han is (mostly) well done. The actors are all fine. I dare even say I found Daisy and Boyega very likable in this one… But, the characters are just plain awful. Rey is a one dimensional Mary Sue and Finn is nothing more than a buffoon meant to make her look good. Then there’s the fact that it’s all a big rehash. Even the planets are knock off versions of places we have seen. And overall it just really lacked any and all imagination and whimsy. It’s just so small, flat, boring, predictable and lifeless. Hey, you said some nice things about it too! So, if Colden banishes me, at least I’ve got someone to talk to! It was shot on film, with practical effects? Figures. I love that sort of thing–you praised that about The Phantom Menace, too, with which I also completely agree. The actors are all fine. I don’t necessarily mind any of them, I just wish they were in a better story. The Finn characterization is what bothered me the most, because the set-up was smart. Making him an ex-stormtrooper is smart. Even his early scenes, before he loses all his intelligence and becomes comic relief (why?!), are smart. But they don’t do anything with it–and then he becomes a total wimp, following Rey around just to make her look good, as you say. Which is all too bad because I think the actor did a fine job with what little he was given. Same with Poe, a wholly pointless but well-played character. With that said, I didn’t really grow angry at this movie until the end. I get that Ford probably didn’t want to play the role any more, especially as he wanted Han to get killed off in Return. But the end just feels like much ado about nothing. Everything is perfunctory. It’s not necessarily killing off a character that bothered me, as it might have bothered some people (I, obviously, didn’t grow up with these movies); it’s that, from a storytelling and characterization perspective, it’s horribly done. There’s no emotion, no feeling–it’s as cold, in its own way, as a Kubrick. Darth Vader was more mourned after his death. “Small” is the ideal word, which is strange with this budget and these possibilities.
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Post by Nalkarj on Nov 20, 2018 19:14:48 GMT
None of it seems to have any scale, something at which the prequels succeeded masterly. It feels awfully small for a movie this big. I’m very entertained by this thread. I agree, and share your experience, granted, I’d seen the movies long ago. Still, it’s ALWAYS refreshing to relate to someone regarding this franchise. None of my coworkers care, they just say “it’s ok, it’s Star Wars, it’s always silly”. Anyway, the scale was indeed utterly small and confusing. I mean, trainwreck of a plot and terrible characters aside, the lack of any world building means there’s no reference point for the viewer to grab on to and we either accept it and chew our popcorn, or you have your suspension of disbelief ruined. Thanks kindly. I hope that people like this thread and that I’m not ranting in the wilderness on the Internet! Of course, I didn’t grow up with these movies, so I’m having a rather different viewing-experience ipso facto. As for your co-workers’ comments, well, I do think there is an innate silliness to Star Wars (which I appreciate), but that’s not a bad thing. The silliness in this one didn’t bother me as much as the storytelling and character flaws. It’s just not a particularly good script, and it probably needed a few more drafts. I can definitely imagine someone enjoying this. For stretches, I enjoyed it as a modern blockbuster, much like director Abrams’ first Star Trek picture. It’s not quite as good as that is, but it could be, like that, entertaining and forgettable. That picture did have a better script, though. Oddly, if Star Trek ’09 felt like knockoff Star Wars wearing Trek costumes, Star Wars ’15 felt like knockoff Potter wearing Wars costumes. It’s an odd phenomenon.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 21, 2018 16:28:15 GMT
OK, so, uh, yeah, it’s over. And I was posting really rapidly on this one, because it gave me so much to post about. Star Wars was fun, Empire amazing, and Jedi endearing, in that it wrapped everything up. The Phantom Menace was flawed but impressive, Attack of the Clones highly flawed but interesting, and Sith an unqualified success. This gives me the feeling of infuriation more than anything. There are so many good things here, and nearly every one is squandered. It’s not a horrible movie by any means, but its weaknesses override its strengths. OK, Daisy Ridley. I like her, and she’s not bad in the part. She’s never given anything memorable or interesting to say, but she does fine with what she’s given. But the writers have written a godawful character. We get no idea who she is, we get no look into her thoughts or emotions or cares, we get a cardboard figure. You have to sketch characters out, even if you sketch them lightly. We can guess and read anything we want into Indiana Jones, not a terribly fleshed-out character– but we don’t even get that opportunity with Ray, because she hardly gets a moment to be herself. And she’s perfect, which is even more annoying. It was a fairly good gag when the mind-control didn’t work–until it did! Huh? Luke couldn’t even do that, but she can? Build up to her ability to do this, if you have to, and don’t emphasize it. Whatever you do, don’t draw attention to it. Three writers and they couldn’t figure that out? The villain stinks. I’m sorry, he’s just the pits. None of the acting is convincing, the design is uproarious, and he’s never threatening outside of the [POINTLESS!] opening scene. He’s horrible at emoting and acts like a spoiled little kid; in fact, Veruca Salt would have been a better villain. That he is the character allowed to kill Han Solo is ludicrous. I’ve written my thoughts on the other characters before. Poe [?] wasn’t well-used, which is too bad because I think they did a good job with him. Han and Fin seem like one writer took over halfway through and completely altered their characters. Very disappointing. The designs in many scenes were beautiful, well-composed. The opening sequences had a great Star Wars vibe. And then that was squandered too: we got a Harry Potter movie. There’s some smart stuff here, but none of it ever comes together, and the ending is dreadful. Seriously: Han dies, and no one cares? Huh? Leia doesn’t even do anything but feel a “jolt,” like Guinness in the first one, and then smile wistfully. None of it seems to have any scale, something at which the prequels succeeded masterly. It feels awfully small for a movie this big. There are a lot of scenes that I found fun, where I had a smile on my face–mostly involving Han. Then the ending pops up. TL;DR: The original trilogy and Revenge of the Sith made me want to watch them again. This movie makes me want to watch the original trilogy and Revenge of the Sith again. What did you think about the scene where Rey fires a gun for the first time and has a perfect aim, but the Stormtroopers can't hit her? I thought it was unintentionally hillarious
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Post by Tristan's Journal on Nov 21, 2018 22:02:32 GMT
Force Awakens is as unoriginal as it is uncreative. One needs repeat viewings to fully grasp how cheap this hack job of a rehash actually is. My least favorite Disney SW by far 3.5/10. The reasoning is essentially:
1. Rip Off: Within the Saga TFA is the least original and creative entry by far; this in a series primarily known and famous for its imagination:
- TFA rehashes 80% of ANH's plot beats, the rest is OT (father-son conflict; Emperor etc) and some former EU elements; the PT world building is mostly ignored;
- TFA uses locations, designs and vehicles from previous films, but is hardly adding anything new (even BB-8 stems from old drawings, other things such as Kylos sabre or outfit are from EU materials);
- The World Building and exposition is shoddy/non-existent: We do not get any idea how and why after RotJ we now have a Bigger, Bader & Dumber Empire again, or what the FO is and how the Republic and the Resistance work (I know: "Kids don't care", but grownups do...!);
- All of this is resulting in a stale and stagnant, seemingly shrinking universe ("Shrinking Universe" complaint);
2. CHARACTERS: the character portrayals and actions are incongruent with their character backgrounds;
- This includes racial stereotyping (mostly with Finn: "Droid Pease", runaway slave motive who is given a name by white dude, a black guy tasered by dog-like droid, while being accused of theft by white female, drinks with animals and is strangled a lot, black guy turns out the janitor etc);
- Blatant Mary Sue writing, which is the writing’s central problem as it sucks out competence and believability of characters and events (e.g., infamous Rey/Leia hug scene);
- Old canon characters act out of character and their former arcs and development are ignored; they only serve to glorify/legitimize the new characters;
* fun fact: that even applies to spaceships, e.g., the Millenium Falcon should be the most famous, recognizable, priceless museum-piece in the universe, but is just standing around like "garbage";
- characters are overpowered or too weak, resulting in video game-like scenes,
*such as Poe shooting down more than 10 Tie Fighters plus ground groups within one shot, or
* Rey saving the day in any situation with untrained ad hoc abilities, including Force power-ups, especially when defeating the main antagonist;
* The (trained-from-childhood) soldier Finn is just an incompetent black bumbling fool, and he is finally revealed to be a space janitor (sanatation worker) – he seems mainly to be there to show that other characters are superior - e.g., cannot fly ships, cannot operate turrets, cannot understand languages, cannot fight, must be rescued all the time etc;
* Some characters such as Kylo are inconsistent, first extremely powerful, then pathetically weak (when facing the untrained scavenger Rey). His inner conflict is poorly developed: e.g., he actually prays to Vader to protect him from the light (!) - thus the guy who is famous for having been redeemed from evil, and having destroyed the Sith/dark side, and who is spooking around as a light side Force ghost...
- The father/son relationship is badly developed; we never see Han/Ben interact before as father and son, or get an understanding that Kylo is really struggling with having to kill his father – his motivation for going dark side is murky at best;
- The bad guys are poorly underwritten and just pale imitations of previous baddies (Snoke-Emperor, Hux-Tarkin, Captain Phasma-BobaFett)
3. STORYLINE/SCRIPT
- The main story line is broken: first it's about getting a map and finding Luke, then it's suddenly about destroying Death Star III (no inner connection) - the map-plot is then suddenly resolved by a deus ex machina event (R2 conveniently awakening, having the map and nobody ever thought of looking in Luke's left-behind droid R2...);
- The scrip excels at creating logical inconstancies/plot holes, (e.g. Han taking BB-8 into Maz's cantina, resulting in it’s destruction), deus ex machina events, convenient coincidents, and plain old bad writing - e.g., the sword fight starts with a plot hole and ends with a deus ex machina earth hole (chasm ridiculously and conveniently opening to save Kylo from Rey), in between lies bad writing violating common sense, the established lore and Force rules.
- The dialog is badly writing and laughable (got a boyfriend cute boyfriend?), often just created to create cheap lowbrow humor;
- All about Death Star 3, including physics and its workings, is blatantly unoriginal and stupid;
- The map subplot is beyond absurd and convoluted (since when do you define destinations in space by directions but not coordinates - but let's not even get started on this!). 4. EXECUTION
- Lot of the CGI is shoddy, the dogfights look like video games, characters like Snoke, the tentacle monsters or Maz look fake;
- The direction is rushed (relentless pacing);
- There is a propensity for overacting, especially with the new characters.
- The action scenes and set pieces are just adequate – there is nothing remotely as iconic as in the OT (DS trench run, AT-AT attack, speeder bike race/DS attack) or even the PT (pod race, Clone War/Geonosis battle, Coruscant battle etc);
- The music is just adequate, like the film lacking the old inspiration for the most part;
- Many many nitpicks/ ”lens flares”, eg the Apocalypse Now shot is an empty reference and curiously the only shot in red dawn while the rest of the scene plays in bright daylight and against blue skies
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Post by Deleted on Nov 22, 2018 0:29:22 GMT
OK, so, uh, yeah, it’s over. And I was posting really rapidly on this one, because it gave me so much to post about. Star Wars was fun, Empire amazing, and Jedi endearing, in that it wrapped everything up. The Phantom Menace was flawed but impressive, Attack of the Clones highly flawed but interesting, and Sith an unqualified success. This gives me the feeling of infuriation more than anything. There are so many good things here, and nearly every one is squandered. It’s not a horrible movie by any means, but its weaknesses override its strengths. OK, Daisy Ridley. I like her, and she’s not bad in the part. She’s never given anything memorable or interesting to say, but she does fine with what she’s given. But the writers have written a godawful character. We get no idea who she is, we get no look into her thoughts or emotions or cares, we get a cardboard figure. You have to sketch characters out, even if you sketch them lightly. We can guess and read anything we want into Indiana Jones, not a terribly fleshed-out character– but we don’t even get that opportunity with Ray, because she hardly gets a moment to be herself. And she’s perfect, which is even more annoying. It was a fairly good gag when the mind-control didn’t work–until it did! Huh? Luke couldn’t even do that, but she can? Build up to her ability to do this, if you have to, and don’t emphasize it. Whatever you do, don’t draw attention to it. Three writers and they couldn’t figure that out? The villain stinks. I’m sorry, he’s just the pits. None of the acting is convincing, the design is uproarious, and he’s never threatening outside of the [POINTLESS!] opening scene. He’s horrible at emoting and acts like a spoiled little kid; in fact, Veruca Salt would have been a better villain. That he is the character allowed to kill Han Solo is ludicrous. I’ve written my thoughts on the other characters before. Poe [?] wasn’t well-used, which is too bad because I think they did a good job with him. Han and Fin seem like one writer took over halfway through and completely altered their characters. Very disappointing. The designs in many scenes were beautiful, well-composed. The opening sequences had a great Star Wars vibe. And then that was squandered too: we got a Harry Potter movie. There’s some smart stuff here, but none of it ever comes together, and the ending is dreadful. Seriously: Han dies, and no one cares? Huh? Leia doesn’t even do anything but feel a “jolt,” like Guinness in the first one, and then smile wistfully. None of it seems to have any scale, something at which the prequels succeeded masterly. It feels awfully small for a movie this big. There are a lot of scenes that I found fun, where I had a smile on my face–mostly involving Han. Then the ending pops up. TL;DR: The original trilogy and Revenge of the Sith made me want to watch them again. This movie makes me want to watch the original trilogy and Revenge of the Sith again. All valid observations. The Rae character, the way she was presented, seemed very odd to me as well. A cardboard figure works for me as well. Who would you say took on the role as narrator for her background in this story?
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