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Post by PreachCaleb on Mar 23, 2017 19:28:40 GMT
I don't see it any worse than Clint's cameo in Thor. Or Fury showing up in Ironman 2.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 23, 2017 19:31:08 GMT
I don't see it any worse than Clint's cameo in Thor. Or Fury showing up in Ironman 2. Exactly. Favoring fan service over the story would have been having Ant-Man and Spider-man show up for the final fight in Siberia.
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Post by Larcen26 on Mar 23, 2017 19:42:06 GMT
Yes... I know... I'm not 12. But it didn't need to be nearly 20 minutes long with no real stakes given the fact that you know none of them really wants to hurt the other. The final fight is the one with all of the tension. You are making it incredibly difficult to keep taking your arguments seriously when you fail to understand the tragedy of people who like each other being forced to fight and risk hurting one another. That's the tragedy of Rhodie's injury! They worked so hard to either bypass/capture each other without unnecessary harm only to fail! Of course there were stakes!! Did you not see where the captured Team Cap members ended up?! They ended in a maximum security prison for supervillains without a lawyer or trial! Nor were they ever going to be given those things despite the worst things they could be arrested for at the time were aggravated assault and property damage, because Secretary Ross is a terrible person who lusts for power! The outcome of that fight is dire in every imaginable way. That "fan service" amounted to so little screentime as to be a non-issue, plus what happened with Ant-Man and Spider-man is going to matter in future films. Seriously. Why do you think I don't care or understand about the concept? I am pretty sure you are just reading what you want to into my comments. I would respectfully ask that you read them with the assumption that perhaps I understand basic narrative arcs and character development. I don't want to do some itemized breakdown of your comments, but what I WILL say is that nothing you mentioned above would change if the Airport battle were scaled back by half. They would still be friends fighting friends, , Rhodey would still have been hurt, they would still have been captured, they would still have been locked up (though I would argue that was such a minor point since they were broken out by the end) And that EXACT screentime is the amount I have been arguing from the very beginning should have been re-assigned to Wanda to help evolve her character. And what happened directly to Ant-Man and Spiderman in Civil War will in no way matter in their future films. Unless "Ant-Man and the Wasp" is about them saving Wakanda, what will happen is Scott will sneak back into the US and will be a fugitive. Would be the exact same thing if he weren't in Civil War and they established in a sentence at the beginning that he has not registered. The airport fight will have NO bearing on the plot of "Homecoming" At worst, you have a similar small scene like the one in Civil War into Homecoming to help establish Tony. But frankly, Tony shouldn't be in "Homecoming" at all, and is only in it because of Civil War. It should be handled like the Netflix shows, same universe, but not directly interacting. In fact, how much cooler would it have been if the post credits scene in "Homecoming" was Tony sitting on Aunt May's couch?
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Post by Skaathar on Mar 23, 2017 19:48:17 GMT
Gratuitous? The movie was building up to that fight from the very beginning. While it's true that some of the characters were unnecessary (Antman, Spiderman, etc.) for most of the characters in that fight the bad blood had already been brewing for some time and kept getting developed throughout the movie. In short, that fight served a purpose that's key to the story. And if it served a purpose it can't have been gratuitous. The Final fight between Tony, Bucky and Steve was what the movie was building towards, and that was a great payoff. They were the ones who had bad blood. Clint and Natasha? Like you said, Spiderman and Antman weren't needed. Rhodey and Sam had nothing....Vision and Wanda only had issues because of earlier in the film spawning from the Tony/Steve problem. The entire thing should have been cut down to Steve and Bucky going for the Quinjet, Natasha trying to stop them then changing her mind...give a little bit of a fight for T'challa with Nat ultimately stopping him like she did. Then you give a little more development between Vision and Wanda, since they were underserved overall, but no need for them to join the bigger fight. Did you miss the part where Falcon and Warmachine were debating with each other or the entire scene where all of them were arguing over the accords? Did you miss the part where Vision was stopping Wanda from leaving HQ? Did you miss the part where Hawkeye attacked Vision? It may not have been as emotionally heavy a fight as it could have been had there been more development, but it certainly wasn't pointless. There are hundreds of movie fights out there that happened for shallower reasons. So in no way was this a gratuitous fight scene. You may say that in the real world, these were not reasons enough to get into a fight. But in movies, fights have started for far less. And you can see in the airport fight that the ones who were most emotionally involved were also the ones most aggressive in the fight. Hawkeye, Black Widow, Spiderman, Ant-man, they weren't really putting a lot of effort into their hits. And that's far more realistic than a lot of other movie fights do.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 23, 2017 19:50:03 GMT
There is literally no reason TO scale it back, though. These are all characters who exist and matter within the narrative of the MCU, and this film sets the stage for their future appearances all in one consolidated sequence. That's one of the quirks that comes with a shared cinematic universe.
Bull and shit. The original Ant-Man ended with Scott Lang legally discharged from prison and able to eat dinner with his daughter. Now he's a wanted criminal again, except on an even greater scale because he's on the run from the U.S. government now. Spider-Man is likely to walk the same path he did in the original Marvel Civil war now, initially idolizing Tony before their friendship sours and he eventually sides with Cap. So, bullshit to your claim right there.
Someone wasn't paying attention to how the first Ant-Man ended. No, Ant-Man and Wasp would have Scott Lang begin the film without being a wanted man. Because of his involvement with Civil War, he now has people far more powerful than the police after him.
Oh, so you've seen Homecoming already? Actually, you can't say one way or the other whether Tony should/shouldn't be in Homecoming, because you don't know what Marvel intends to do with Spider-Man. You're being very presumptuous right now.
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Post by PreachCaleb on Mar 23, 2017 19:51:17 GMT
Good point. Various seeds of conflict were planted earlier in the movie. The airport scene was a pay off to those moments.
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Post by Larcen26 on Mar 23, 2017 20:02:02 GMT
Guys.
I really don't care that much.
I have outlined my feelings, and I still hold them.
The fight was overdone, Spiderman wasn't needed. Ant-Man was fine, but also not needed.
I have no interest in repeatedly being called an idiot because I hold a differing (if minority) opinion.
I know this is the internet, and I know what I entered into, but am done now.
Good luck to all of you, and back to the original point of this post...
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Post by Deleted on Mar 23, 2017 20:38:50 GMT
Guys. I really don't care that much. I have outlined my feelings, and I still hold them. The fight was overdone, Spiderman wasn't needed. Ant-Man was fine, but also not needed. I have no interest in repeatedly being called an idiot because I hold a differing (if minority) opinion. I know this is the internet, and I know what I entered into, but am done now. Good luck to all of you, and back to the original point of this post... Just wanted to say that I support you. Don't let the ButthurtRaptor get to you. He's a 2 year old living in a fat 30 year old's body. He can't handle differing opinions without getting his panties in an uproar.
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Post by politicidal on Mar 23, 2017 21:54:42 GMT
Well hell, I suck as a thread mod. Didn't know I had four pages of this shit.
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Post by brownstones on Mar 23, 2017 21:59:05 GMT
Well hell, I suck as a thread mod. Didn't know I had four pages of this shit. 1. you're a mod? 2. yeah a lot of the threads go to like 4 pages of arguing.
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Post by politicidal on Mar 23, 2017 22:04:53 GMT
Well hell, I suck as a thread mod. Didn't know I had four pages of this shit. 1. you're a mod? 2. yeah a lot of the threads go to like 4 pages of arguing. Not literally no.
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Post by chatterer on Mar 24, 2017 2:20:47 GMT
CW reused a lot from WS imo. My biggest problem with the entire film was that the major "set pieces" had literally nothing to do with the story and were there as fanservice. The airport fight was gratuitous and all of the Spider Man stuff should have been sacrificed to better develop Scarlet Witch. And yet those two things are the only things people talk about in the movie. For me it was the repackaged elements from WS: Cap and Crossbones fight = Cap and WS freeway fight. Crossbones produces a knife which Caps has to dodge just like WS fight. Cap goes on the run in civilian clothes again. Falcon has Caps back again. Black Panther too much like WS the mysterious badass unstoppable guy. They even did a foot chase scene with Cap now chasing BP. Thunderbolt is Pierce the veteran authority guy to but heads with Cap.
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Post by LeWildPlatypus on Mar 24, 2017 13:29:14 GMT
What formula? Making films people like? I didn't see your response Mr. Raptor, please quote my post. They are both clearly different entities, it's like a recipe with it's own secret ingredient. DC, dark and brooding, Marvel, adventure and humour. I know there are dark themes in Marvel films, I do watch those films too but the tone is lighter in comparison. Marvel is highly popular and it's obvious that DC tried to imitate Marvel's Guardians of the Galaxy with Suicide Squad. It should've been it's own animal.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 2, 2017 9:29:03 GMT
lmao... mcu kiddies are being triggered Kid, shut up and let the adults discuss this.
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Post by formersamhmd on Apr 2, 2017 11:43:18 GMT
What formula? Making films people like? I didn't see your response Mr. Raptor, please quote my post. They are both clearly different entities, it's like a recipe with it's own secret ingredient. DC, dark and brooding, Marvel, adventure and humour. I know there are dark themes in Marvel films, I do watch those films too but the tone is lighter in comparison. Marvel is highly popular and it's obvious that DC tried to imitate Marvel's Guardians of the Galaxy with Suicide Squad. It should've been it's own animal. The bigger issue is that Suicide Squad was created ENTIRELY to counter the Guardians of the Galaxy...but the guys at DC forgot that the Suicide Squad has always been a difficult concept to execute even in the comics due to the core concept being a hard one to swallow. If they hadn't been desperate to emulate Guardians they'd have realized this. Lack of foresight has been a big issue with DC, I mean really they could've explained Joker's continued living after Jason Todd much better than they did in SS (which is to say, not at all) when they established Batman kills now.
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Post by brownstones on Apr 2, 2017 17:59:06 GMT
I didn't see your response Mr. Raptor, please quote my post. They are both clearly different entities, it's like a recipe with it's own secret ingredient. DC, dark and brooding, Marvel, adventure and humour. I know there are dark themes in Marvel films, I do watch those films too but the tone is lighter in comparison. Marvel is highly popular and it's obvious that DC tried to imitate Marvel's Guardians of the Galaxy with Suicide Squad. It should've been it's own animal. The bigger issue is that Suicide Squad was created ENTIRELY to counter the Guardians of the Galaxy...but the guys at DC forgot that the Suicide Squad has always been a difficult concept to execute even in the comics due to the core concept being a hard one to swallow. If they hadn't been desperate to emulate Guardians they'd have realized this. Lack of foresight has been a big issue with DC, I mean really they could've explained Joker's continued living after Jason Todd much better than they did in SS (which is to say, not at all) when they established Batman kills now. batman started killing during bvs, that's why alfred is peeved with him
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Post by Deleted on Apr 2, 2017 18:47:01 GMT
I didn't see your response Mr. Raptor, please quote my post. They are both clearly different entities, it's like a recipe with it's own secret ingredient. DC, dark and brooding, Marvel, adventure and humour. I know there are dark themes in Marvel films, I do watch those films too but the tone is lighter in comparison. Marvel is highly popular and it's obvious that DC tried to imitate Marvel's Guardians of the Galaxy with Suicide Squad. It should've been it's own animal. The bigger issue is that Suicide Squad was created ENTIRELY to counter the Guardians of the Galaxy...but the guys at DC forgot that the Suicide Squad has always been a difficult concept to execute even in the comics due to the core concept being a hard one to swallow. If they hadn't been desperate to emulate Guardians they'd have realized this. Lack of foresight has been a big issue with DC, I mean really they could've explained Joker's continued living after Jason Todd much better than they did in SS (which is to say, not at all) when they established Batman kills now. In the case of Suicide Squad, Sam Pakinpah ( any of his films) and Robert Aldrich (specifically The Dirty Dozen) were the people to emulate, not James Gunn.
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Post by formersamhmd on Apr 2, 2017 19:01:09 GMT
The bigger issue is that Suicide Squad was created ENTIRELY to counter the Guardians of the Galaxy...but the guys at DC forgot that the Suicide Squad has always been a difficult concept to execute even in the comics due to the core concept being a hard one to swallow. If they hadn't been desperate to emulate Guardians they'd have realized this. Lack of foresight has been a big issue with DC, I mean really they could've explained Joker's continued living after Jason Todd much better than they did in SS (which is to say, not at all) when they established Batman kills now. batman started killing during bvs, that's why alfred is peeved with him Look, a better way of dealing with Batman in BvS and why Joker is still alive would've been thus:
Joker and Harley killed Robin years in the past and were in the middle of spray painting his costume when Batman found them. Batman flew into a rage and beat Joker within an inch of his life (thus explaining why Joker has metal teeth and stuff). He only stops because he thinks Robin might be alive and gets him out of there and leaves Joker and a terrified Harley to the Police.
Bruce tries to revive Robin but he dies anyways. Bruce decides to hang up the cape over this failure.
Meanwhile Joker is alive, but he's gone into a coma from the severity of the beating he got. Harley is taken to Blackgate and is there for years until she's released in Suicide Squad.
Bruce stays retired until Superman shows up and this gets him to get back in the game, only now he's much more bitter and vicious thus giving us context for the new brutal attitude he shows in BvS. Batman being gone for years and now just coming back is why Clark is only NOW wondering about the Gotham Bat, it's because he wasn't active during MoS.
Joker stays in his coma until one day someone at the hospital is playing the news and he hears a broadcast about Batman. This brings him out of his coma and his first piece of business after he escapes is to get Harley back.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 2, 2017 19:11:23 GMT
batman started killing during bvs, that's why alfred is peeved with him Look, a better way of dealing with Batman in BvS and why Joker is still alive would've been thus:
Joker and Harley killed Robin years in the past and were in the middle of spray painting his costume when Batman found them. Batman flew into a rage and beat Joker within an inch of his life (thus explaining why Joker has metal teeth and stuff). He only stops because he thinks Robin might be alive and gets him out of there and leaves Joker and a terrified Harley to the Police.
Bruce tries to revive Robin but he dies anyways. Bruce decides to hang up the cape over this failure.
Meanwhile Joker is alive, but he's gone into a coma from the severity of the beating he got. Harley is taken to Blackgate and is there for years until she's released in Suicide Squad.
Bruce stays retired until Superman shows up and this gets him to get back in the game, only now he's much more bitter and vicious thus giving us context for the new brutal attitude he shows in BvS. Batman being gone for years and now just coming back is why Clark is only NOW wondering about the Gotham Bat, it's because he wasn't active during MoS.
Joker stays in his coma until one day someone at the hospital is playing the news and he hears a broadcast about Batman. This brings him out of his coma and his first piece of business after he escapes is to get Harley back.
And adding to this, if we'd had the Aquaman and Wonder Woman movies in 2014-15 leading up to BvS, where doubtlessly more carnage would have been reaped in the battles of two demigod level supers against their villains, we would have THREE separate incidents in which there was property damage and loss of life relating to a crisis concerning superhumans. That would give Bruce the excuse of noticing a pattern emerging in a similar way Vision did in Civil War. It's still fallible logic, but it's better than "IF THERE'S EVEN a 1% CHANCE OF HIM BEING OUR ENEMY, THEN HE MUST BE OUR ENEMY!"
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Post by politicidal on Apr 2, 2017 19:58:42 GMT
Look, a better way of dealing with Batman in BvS and why Joker is still alive would've been thus:
Joker and Harley killed Robin years in the past and were in the middle of spray painting his costume when Batman found them. Batman flew into a rage and beat Joker within an inch of his life (thus explaining why Joker has metal teeth and stuff). He only stops because he thinks Robin might be alive and gets him out of there and leaves Joker and a terrified Harley to the Police.
Bruce tries to revive Robin but he dies anyways. Bruce decides to hang up the cape over this failure.
Meanwhile Joker is alive, but he's gone into a coma from the severity of the beating he got. Harley is taken to Blackgate and is there for years until she's released in Suicide Squad.
Bruce stays retired until Superman shows up and this gets him to get back in the game, only now he's much more bitter and vicious thus giving us context for the new brutal attitude he shows in BvS. Batman being gone for years and now just coming back is why Clark is only NOW wondering about the Gotham Bat, it's because he wasn't active during MoS.
Joker stays in his coma until one day someone at the hospital is playing the news and he hears a broadcast about Batman. This brings him out of his coma and his first piece of business after he escapes is to get Harley back.
And adding to this, if we'd had the Aquaman and Wonder Woman movies in 2014-15 leading up to BvS, where doubtlessly more carnage would have been reaped in the battles of two demigod level supers against their villains, we would have THREE separate incidents in which there was property damage and loss of life relating to a crisis concerning superhumans. That would give Bruce the excuse of noticing a pattern emerging in a similar way Vision did in Civil War. It's still fallible logic, but it's better than "IF THERE'S EVEN a 1% CHANCE OF HIM BEING OUR ENEMY, THEN HE MUST BE OUR ENEMY!"Ben Affleck was firing on all cylinders saying that, thinking he'd be nominated for an Oscar for best supporting actor like Heath Ledger man. Bad logic but god that line reading was glorious.
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