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Post by Lord Death Man on Jun 19, 2018 0:26:02 GMT
XMU fans, this is Lord Death Man speaking. I humbly greet you today in friendship and brotherhood. Soon we, the chosen Marvel fandom, will be of one body. As we wait patiently for the great reunification, I find I must pose a question to my wayward brethren. Why is it so hard for Fox to acknowledge that the Phoenix Force is a distinct entity from Jean Grey? Don't you find it even a bit vexing? I'm very vexed. Jean combined with the Phoenix Force is what creates the Dark Phoenix. It is the entire impetus for the Dark Phoenix Saga and it's a mainstay of X-Men/Marvel continuity. By joining with the Phoenix Force, Jean gains knowledge that takes her on a journey of self discovery in which her humanity is nearly lost and -- triumphantly -- found again. Does Fox really believe that general audiences will not understand the concept of a human bonding with a neigh omnipotent celestial being? What gives XMU fans? Why must we always get the flaming, CGI Christmas turkey and not the substance behind it? Across a hundred different incarnations and a thousand different worlds, Jean Elaine Grey is the living avatar of the Phoenix. Its song is one of destruction and rebirth - and only she can sing it.
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Post by Agent of Chaos on Jun 19, 2018 18:37:50 GMT
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Post by Agent of Chaos on Jun 19, 2018 18:47:20 GMT
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Post by Lord Death Man on Jun 19, 2018 19:01:05 GMT
It's a retcon. But, it's no less valid because it makes perfect sense and is now canon. Or do you prefer the more SJW/Modern Medea interpretation? That never made sense and it was too reactionary. That's why it was changed. Her story is stronger and more epic with the two of them as separate entities.
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Post by Agent of Chaos on Jun 19, 2018 19:17:10 GMT
It's a retcon. But, it's no less valid because it makes perfect sense and is now canon. Or do you prefer the more SJW/Modern Medea interpretation? That never made sense and it was too reactionary. That's why it was changed. Her story is stronger and more epic with the two of them as separate entities. So what if you’re still canon now? Cable’s backstory is also canon but they are not doing that because it’s convoluted and is unnecessary. The Phoenix Force was just a convoluted plot device to bring back Jason and so it’s really unnecessary. And no, the Phoenix Force making a duplicate of Jean was poorly recieved.
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Post by President Ackbar™ on Jun 19, 2018 19:26:17 GMT
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Post by Lord Death Man on Jun 19, 2018 19:27:54 GMT
It's a retcon. But, it's no less valid because it makes perfect sense and is now canon. Or do you prefer the more SJW/Modern Medea interpretation? That never made sense and it was too reactionary. That's why it was changed. Her story is stronger and more epic with the two of them as separate entities. So what if you’re still canon now? Cable’s backstory is also canon but they are not doing that because it’s convoluted and is unnecessary. The Phoenix Force was just a convoluted plot device to bring back and so it’s really unnecessary. And no, the Phoenix Force making a duplicate of Jean was poorly recieved. Making them two separate entities was not poorly received at the time. I defy you to prove that. The letter pages for those issues were positive to neutral. What people didn't like, and spoke out about, was Jean being solely responsible for her crimes as the Dark Phoenix. That is why Marvel editorial pushed through the retcon. Claremont had his choice and he chose to make them separate entities. They did not force him to do it. The literal physical duplicate came much later in a classic X-Men back-up story and was indeed poorly received because it was a bad execution of a good idea.
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Post by Agent of Chaos on Jun 19, 2018 21:39:39 GMT
So what if you’re still canon now? Cable’s backstory is also canon but they are not doing that because it’s convoluted and is unnecessary. The Phoenix Force was just a convoluted plot device to bring back and so it’s really unnecessary. And no, the Phoenix Force making a duplicate of Jean was poorly recieved. Making them two separate entities was not poorly received at the time. I defy you to prove that. The letter pages for those issues were positive to neutral. What people didn't like, and spoke out about, was Jean being solely responsible for her crimes as the Dark Phoenix. That is why Marvel editorial pushed through the retcon. Claremont had his choice and he chose to make them separate entities. They did not force him to do it. The literal physical duplicate came much later in a classic X-Men back-up story and was indeed poorly received because it was a bad execution of a good idea. No, Marvel editorial pushed for Jean’s death. In the original ending Jean was going to be depowered and Phoenix power would fade. You can read the original ending in the link below. imgur.com/a/rQkozPhoenix was always a power Jean was born with and linked to her powers under Claremont.
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Post by Lord Death Man on Jun 20, 2018 0:30:05 GMT
Making them two separate entities was not poorly received at the time. I defy you to prove that. The letter pages for those issues were positive to neutral. What people didn't like, and spoke out about, was Jean being solely responsible for her crimes as the Dark Phoenix. That is why Marvel editorial pushed through the retcon. Claremont had his choice and he chose to make them separate entities. They did not force him to do it. The literal physical duplicate came much later in a classic X-Men back-up story and was indeed poorly received because it was a bad execution of a good idea. No, Marvel editorial pushed for Jean’s death. In the original ending Jean was going to be depowered and Phoenix power would fade. You can read the original ending in the link below. imgur.com/a/rQkozPhoenix was always a power Jean was born with and linked to her powers under Claremont. Don't be a ret con hypocrite. Jeans "new powers" as the phoenix were not "always there". They themselves were a retcon of Stan and Jack's interpretation of Marvel Girl -- who was solely a telekinetic. The only reason she got those new powers is because she was being seen as dead weight on the team. Flash forward and we now have a retcon of that retcon which I think works and served the character well. Had she kept her "new powers" -- integrated or fused with another entity -- she'd be too OP for the team and for credible story telling.
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Post by Agent of Chaos on Jun 20, 2018 3:18:47 GMT
No, Marvel editorial pushed for Jean’s death. In the original ending Jean was going to be depowered and Phoenix power would fade. You can read the original ending in the link below. imgur.com/a/rQkozPhoenix was always a power Jean was born with and linked to her powers under Claremont. Don't be a ret con hypocrite. Jeans "new powers" as the phoenix were not "always there". They themselves were a retcon of Stan and Jack's interpretation of Marvel Girl -- who was solely a telekinetic. The only reason she got those new powers is because she was being seen as dead weight on the team. Flash forward and we now have a retcon of that retcon which I think works and served the character well. Had she kept her "new powers" -- integrated or fused with another entity -- she'd be too OP for the team and for credible story telling. Jean getting telepathy happened before Claremont got on the book and it wasn’t a retcon. Xavier gave some of his telepathic powers to her later on. Besides, Phoenix was the peak of Jean’s telekinesis and had nothing to do with her telepathy. As evident by Xavier defeating her in a telepathic fight.
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Post by Lord Death Man on Jun 20, 2018 3:36:16 GMT
Don't be a ret con hypocrite. Jeans "new powers" as the phoenix were not "always there". They themselves were a retcon of Stan and Jack's interpretation of Marvel Girl -- who was solely a telekinetic. The only reason she got those new powers is because she was being seen as dead weight on the team. Flash forward and we now have a retcon of that retcon which I think works and served the character well. Had she kept her "new powers" -- integrated or fused with another entity -- she'd be too OP for the team and for credible story telling. Jean getting telepathy happened before Claremont got on the book and it wasn’t a retcon. Xavier gave some of his telepathic powers to her later on. Besides, Phoenix was the peak of Jean’s telekinesis and had nothing to do with her telepathy. As evident by Xavier defeating her in a telepathic fight. Her telepathy was initially explained as sharing Xavior's powers her wasn't it? He didn't give her some of his powers, she just had access to some of his. None of that equated to her becoming the psionic juggernaut that she was when she became the Phoenix. That was a straight-up retcon.
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Post by Agent of Chaos on Jun 20, 2018 10:41:33 GMT
Jean getting telepathy happened before Claremont got on the book and it wasn’t a retcon. Xavier gave some of his telepathic powers to her later on. Besides, Phoenix was the peak of Jean’s telekinesis and had nothing to do with her telepathy. As evident by Xavier defeating her in a telepathic fight. Her telepathy was initially explained as sharing Xavior's powers her wasn't it? He didn't give her some of his powers, she just had access to some of his. None of that equated to her becoming the psionic juggernaut that she was when she became the Phoenix. That was a straight-up retcon. They apparently stated in eariler issues that always had he potential to be powerful since the original run.
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palerider
Sophomore
@palerider
Posts: 120
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Post by palerider on Jun 20, 2018 16:20:53 GMT
I think it's interesting that, based on the rumors about Dark Phoenix, that so far BOTH attempts to do this story are going to fall flat.
I'm starting to think it's because the actual Dark Phoenix Saga from the comics isn't that good to start with. I read the TPB and wasn't impressed.
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Post by Agent of Chaos on Jun 20, 2018 20:25:12 GMT
I think it's interesting that, based on the rumors about Dark Phoenix, that so far BOTH attempts to do this story are going to fall flat. I'm starting to think it's because the actual Dark Phoenix Saga from the comics isn't that good to start with. I read the TPB and wasn't impressed. Why are you even a an deleted reddit post from a troll seriously? The story doesn’t even add up with the info given in EW.
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Post by ThatGuy on Jun 20, 2018 23:30:26 GMT
Well, to be fair, Magneto wasn't Quicksilver and Scarlet Witch's father until 16 years later. People still hold on to that. It's called retconning. Writers do it to enhance a story.
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Post by Agent of Chaos on Jun 21, 2018 0:13:19 GMT
Well, to be fair, Magneto wasn't Quicksilver and Scarlet Witch's father until 16 years later. People still hold on to that. It's called retconning. Writers do it to enhance a story. Except the Phoenix Force wasn’t created to enhance the story. It was a plot device to bring Jean back. Like Cable’s backstory which is also being ignored in the films.
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Post by Lord Death Man on Jun 21, 2018 20:16:13 GMT
Her telepathy was initially explained as sharing Xavior's powers her wasn't it? He didn't give her some of his powers, she just had access to some of his. None of that equated to her becoming the psionic juggernaut that she was when she became the Phoenix. That was a straight-up retcon. They apparently stated in eariler issues that always had he potential to be powerful since the original run. There's no mention of her telepathy until 1968 in issue #43. Xavier was somehow sharing his power with her or giving it to her. It wasn't her own power at that time. Later on in the early eighties they retconned the power transfer/sharing explanation so that it was an ability she always had.
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Post by Agent of Chaos on Jun 21, 2018 23:49:51 GMT
They apparently stated in eariler issues that always had he potential to be powerful since the original run. There's no mention of her telepathy until 1968 in issue #43. Xavier was somehow sharing his power with her or giving it to her. It wasn't her own power at that time. Later on in the early eighties they retconned the power transfer/sharing explanation so that it was an ability she always had. I am talking about her telekinesis.
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Post by Lord Death Man on Jun 21, 2018 23:59:55 GMT
There's no mention of her telepathy until 1968 in issue #43. Xavier was somehow sharing his power with her or giving it to her. It wasn't her own power at that time. Later on in the early eighties they retconned the power transfer/sharing explanation so that it was an ability she always had. I am talking about her telekinesis. So you acknowledge that her telepathy was a retcon? Can you site the original run issue were it was said she had the potential to be a more powerful telekinetic?
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Post by Agent of Chaos on Jun 22, 2018 0:48:24 GMT
I am talking about her telekinesis. So you acknowledge that her telepathy was a retcon? Can you site the original run issue were it was said she had the potential to be a more powerful telekinetic? No. How she got her telepathy was retconned.
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