|
|
Post by Rey Kahuka on Jun 29, 2018 16:43:32 GMT
I still think TLJ is a good movie. It's even a good Star Wars movie.However, it's not a good sequel to TFA. For a million reasons, no. But a few choice examples would be: - Luke Skywalker's first instinct is to kill his nephew in his sleep because he senses evil in him. - An Imperial (first order?) officer explaining that they can't shoot down Poe's X-wing because it's too small, despite being designed for that very purpose and shooting down X-wings in eight previous films. It's a terrible movie in general (plot makes no sense, entire subplots from the previous film are torn up and thrown out, pointless characters going on pointless side quests, etc.), but you're free to enjoy it. But it's an absolute failure as a Star Wars film because it ignores established canon and makes a central character inexplicably unrecognizable from a personality standpoint. |
|
|
|
Post by PreachCaleb on Jun 29, 2018 16:48:16 GMT
I still think TLJ is a good movie. It's even a good Star Wars movie.However, it's not a good sequel to TFA. For a million reasons, no. But a few choice examples would be: - Luke Skywalker's first instinct is to kill his nephew in his sleep because he senses evil in him. - An Imperial (first order?) officer explaining that they can't shoot down Poe's X-wing because it's too small, despite being designed for that very purpose and shooting down X-wings in eight previous films. It's a terrible movie in general (plot makes no sense, entire subplots from the previous film are torn up and thrown out, pointless characters going on pointless side quests, etc.), but you're free to enjoy it. But it's an absolute failure as a Star Wars film because it ignores established canon and makes a central character inexplicably unrecognizable from a personality standpoint. Which would be a problem if the character wasn't decades older. Even his instinct to kill doesn't conflict with his instinct to kill an unarmed Emperor and almost kill his own father in a rage. Besides, instincts don't define characters. Decisions do. A good Star Wars movie is a space opera. This film falls into that. |
|
|
|
Post by Rey Kahuka on Jun 29, 2018 18:52:55 GMT
For a million reasons, no. But a few choice examples would be: - Luke Skywalker's first instinct is to kill his nephew in his sleep because he senses evil in him. - An Imperial (first order?) officer explaining that they can't shoot down Poe's X-wing because it's too small, despite being designed for that very purpose and shooting down X-wings in eight previous films. It's a terrible movie in general (plot makes no sense, entire subplots from the previous film are torn up and thrown out, pointless characters going on pointless side quests, etc.), but you're free to enjoy it. But it's an absolute failure as a Star Wars film because it ignores established canon and makes a central character inexplicably unrecognizable from a personality standpoint. Which would be a problem if the character wasn't decades older. Even his instinct to kill doesn't conflict with his instinct to kill an unarmed Emperor and almost kill his own father in a rage. Besides, instincts don't define characters. Decisions do. A good Star Wars movie is a space opera. This film falls into that. You're comparing confrontations with ultimate evil to killing his nephew in his sleep. Think about that for a second. Luke hadn't gone through some radical transformation that was shown. The character who was able to turn Darth Vader back to the light made a snap decision to try to kill his nephew in his sleep, it's ridiculous. That excuse only works if he'd already been a crazy hermit for 20 years, even then it would be flimsy. Luke is training jedi at his academy and suddenly decides killing his best friend's son while he sleeps is the best course of action. The idea that it was his first instinct is against everything we know of the character. It took him a lot longer to even try to kill the Emperor! |
|
|
|
Post by PreachCaleb on Jul 2, 2018 13:35:17 GMT
Which would be a problem if the character wasn't decades older. Even his instinct to kill doesn't conflict with his instinct to kill an unarmed Emperor and almost kill his own father in a rage. Besides, instincts don't define characters. Decisions do. A good Star Wars movie is a space opera. This film falls into that. You're comparing confrontations with ultimate evil to killing his nephew in his sleep. Think about that for a second. Luke hadn't gone through some radical transformation that was shown. The character who was able to turn Darth Vader back to the light made a snap decision to try to kill his nephew in his sleep, it's ridiculous. That excuse only works if he'd already been a crazy hermit for 20 years, even then it would be flimsy. Luke is training jedi at his academy and suddenly decides killing his best friend's son while he sleeps is the best course of action. The idea that it was his first instinct is against everything we know of the character. And Luke would know what ultimate evil feels like, which is why he'd fear it growing in his nephew. Luke didn't make a snap decision. It was in impulse. We can't control what our instincts are. However, h e stopped himself. That's the more important decision. It's not against what we know of the character because we know too often he goes with his emotions. He failed in the cave, he disobeyed Yoda to go after Han and Leia, he started using the force choke, he tried to kill The Emperor even though he knew it'd be a step toward the Dark side, he almost killed Vader. Violence is in his nature.
Not really. He tried to kill him in their very first meeting. But he'd known Ben for years.
|
|
|
|
Post by Rey Kahuka on Jul 2, 2018 13:49:55 GMT
You're comparing confrontations with ultimate evil to killing his nephew in his sleep. Think about that for a second. Luke hadn't gone through some radical transformation that was shown. The character who was able to turn Darth Vader back to the light made a snap decision to try to kill his nephew in his sleep, it's ridiculous. That excuse only works if he'd already been a crazy hermit for 20 years, even then it would be flimsy. Luke is training jedi at his academy and suddenly decides killing his best friend's son while he sleeps is the best course of action. The idea that it was his first instinct is against everything we know of the character. And Luke would know what ultimate evil feels like, which is why he'd fear it growing in his nephew. Luke didn't make a snap decision. It was in impulse. We can't control what our instincts are. However, h e stopped himself. That's the more important decision. It's not against what we know of the character because we know too often he goes with his emotions. He failed in the cave, he disobeyed Yoda to go after Han and Leia, he started using the force choke, he tried to kill The Emperor even though he knew it'd be a step toward the Dark side, he almost killed Vader. Violence is in his nature.
Not really. He tried to kill him in their very first meeting. But he'd known Ben for years.
He never had that instinct before. It's ridiculous that you're comparing a heated battle with the galaxy on the line to killing his nephew in his sleep. Yes, he tried to kill the Emperor who was responsible for billions of deaths after heavy discussion and goading by the Sith Lord himself. As opposed to his, to use your words, 'instinct' to kill his nephew in his sleep because he could feel the evil in him. Luke felt the evil and the good in Vader, who himself was responsible for countless deaths. Still, he kept trying to turn him. His first instinct was to save his soul (or did you forget that scene?). But Ben was giving off bad vibes in his sleep-- he had to go. |
|
|
|
Post by PreachCaleb on Jul 2, 2018 14:44:27 GMT
And Luke would know what ultimate evil feels like, which is why he'd fear it growing in his nephew. Luke didn't make a snap decision. It was in impulse. We can't control what our instincts are. However, h e stopped himself. That's the more important decision. It's not against what we know of the character because we know too often he goes with his emotions. He failed in the cave, he disobeyed Yoda to go after Han and Leia, he started using the force choke, he tried to kill The Emperor even though he knew it'd be a step toward the Dark side, he almost killed Vader. Violence is in his nature.
Not really. He tried to kill him in their very first meeting. But he'd known Ben for years.
He never had that instinct before. It's ridiculous that you're comparing a heated battle with the galaxy on the line to killing his nephew in his sleep. Yes, he tried to kill the Emperor who was responsible for billions of deaths after heavy discussion and goading by the Sith Lord himself. Luke felt the evil and the good in Vader, who himself was responsible for countless deaths. Still, he kept trying to turn him. . He never had a nephew before either. And as we saw in Empire, Luke's instinct is to strike and kill. It's not ridiculous. Because again, Luke did not actually strike at his nephew as he did the Emperor. Instinct is not action.
Actually, those are your words. You said it was his "instinct to kill his nephew" first: - Luke Skywalker's first instinct is to kill his nephew in his sleep because he senses evil in him.
No, I didn't. But I also didn't forget the scene where he nearly kills him in a fit of uncontrolled rage. Plus, his first instinct was not to save him but to saw his head off with a lightsabre.
Did you forget the scene where Luke does not kill Ben? He stopped himself before Ben even woke up. He knew he was wrong. It's ok to have wrong instincts and acknowledge them as such.
|
|
|
|
Post by Rey Kahuka on Jul 2, 2018 15:41:59 GMT
He never had that instinct before. It's ridiculous that you're comparing a heated battle with the galaxy on the line to killing his nephew in his sleep. Yes, he tried to kill the Emperor who was responsible for billions of deaths after heavy discussion and goading by the Sith Lord himself. Luke felt the evil and the good in Vader, who himself was responsible for countless deaths. Still, he kept trying to turn him. . He never had a nephew before either. And as we saw in Empire, Luke's instinct is to strike and kill. It's not ridiculous. Because again, Luke did not actually strike at his nephew as he did the Emperor. Instinct is not action.
Actually, those are your words. You said it was his "instinct to kill his nephew" first: - Luke Skywalker's first instinct is to kill his nephew in his sleep because he senses evil in him.
No, I didn't. But I also didn't forget the scene where he nearly kills him in a fit of uncontrolled rage. Plus, his first instinct was not to save him but to saw his head off with a lightsabre.
Did you forget the scene where Luke does not kill Ben? He stopped himself before Ben even woke up. He knew he was wrong. It's ok to have wrong instincts and acknowledge them as such.
No, Luke's first instinct when he was strong enough with the force to be able to sense good and evil in people, was to try to save Vader. That's an absolute fact. He surrendered to Vader in ROTJ for that very purpose. And again you're comparing his actions during a fight for his life with the galaxy in the balance and the Emperor trying to pull Luke's strings, to Luke making a snap decision to randomly kill Ben in his sleep because he sensed he might be evil. It is a completely different scenario. It's not in his character to even consider killing Ben under those circumstances. It's an idiotic argument and I think you know that-- you're just a 'likes to argue' guy, hence the cut up quote posts. Luke did not try to kill Vader immediately once he knew how to use his force sense, there's absolutely no reason why his first reaction, no matter how brief, would be to kill his own nephew simply because he saw the potential for evil in him. It's nonsensical writing that disregards established canon (much like my comments on Poe's x-wing that you didn't bother responding to because you couldn't find wiggle room to make an argument). No matter how many times you insist otherwise, 1+1 will not equal 3. Thanks, it's been fun. |
|
|
|
Post by PreachCaleb on Jul 2, 2018 15:58:47 GMT
He never had a nephew before either. And as we saw in Empire, Luke's instinct is to strike and kill. It's not ridiculous. Because again, Luke did not actually strike at his nephew as he did the Emperor. Instinct is not action.
Actually, those are your words. You said it was his "instinct to kill his nephew" first: - Luke Skywalker's first instinct is to kill his nephew in his sleep because he senses evil in him.
No, I didn't. But I also didn't forget the scene where he nearly kills him in a fit of uncontrolled rage. Plus, his first instinct was not to save him but to saw his head off with a lightsabre.
Did you forget the scene where Luke does not kill Ben? He stopped himself before Ben even woke up. He knew he was wrong. It's ok to have wrong instincts and acknowledge them as such.
No, Luke's first instinct when he was strong enough with the force to be able to sense good and evil in people, was to try to save Vader. That's an absolute fact. He surrendered to Vader in ROTJ for that very purpose. And again you're comparing his actions during a fight for his life with the galaxy in the balance and the Emperor trying to pull Luke's strings, to Luke making a snap decision to randomly kill Ben in his sleep because he sensed he might be evil. It is a completely different scenario.It's an idiotic argument and I think you know that-- It's nonsensical writing that disregards established canonNo matter how many times you insist otherwise, 1+1 will not equal 3. Thanks, it's been fun. Yes, I am because instinct is not controllable. It kicks in regardless of what's going on. It's why people get scared in horror movies even though they know they aren't in any real danger. Instinct by its very nature is ingrained. And again, Luke did not try to immediately kill Ben. There was no snap decision. If it was, he wouldn't have had time to stop himself. That's what a snap decision is. No time to think it over and just react. ROTJ shows it is absolutely in his nature to try and kill a family member.
I agree because that's not what happened in the movie.
"I'd sensed it building in him.
I'd see it at moments during his training."
This disproves the whole first instinct, snap decision scenario. Ok, now that's funny. I've never seen someone so upset to not have his idea challenged. I think you're the one who likes to argue. |
|
|
|
Post by James Bond on Jul 2, 2018 22:46:29 GMT
You're comparing confrontations with ultimate evil to killing his nephew in his sleep. Think about that for a second. Luke hadn't gone through some radical transformation that was shown. The character who was able to turn Darth Vader back to the light made a snap decision to try to kill his nephew in his sleep, it's ridiculous. That excuse only works if he'd already been a crazy hermit for 20 years, even then it would be flimsy. Luke is training jedi at his academy and suddenly decides killing his best friend's son while he sleeps is the best course of action. The idea that it was his first instinct is against everything we know of the character. And Luke would know what ultimate evil feels like, which is why he'd fear it growing in his nephew. Luke didn't make a snap decision. It was in impulse. We can't control what our instincts are. However, h e stopped himself. That's the more important decision. It's not against what we know of the character because we know too often he goes with his emotions. He failed in the cave, he disobeyed Yoda to go after Han and Leia, he started using the force choke, he tried to kill The Emperor even though he knew it'd be a step toward the Dark side, he almost killed Vader. Violence is in his nature.
Not really. He tried to kill him in their very first meeting. But he'd known Ben for years.
When was that? |
|
|
|
Post by wonderburstanger on Jul 2, 2018 23:09:16 GMT
Well at least you like it more. I think at the very least it's a good film and people are making it seem worse than it is. I don't get Star Wars fans. They object when a film plays it safe (Force Awakens). So we get a film that takes some chances (Last Jedi) and people still object. It's like "Well what do you want?". You know what I have noticed ? The People that liked " THE FORCE AWAKENS" hated " THE LAST JEDI" while the People that hated " THE FORCE AWAKENS" liked " THE LAST JEDI".  I am the latter |
|
|
|
Post by FridayOnElmStreet on Jul 3, 2018 7:50:30 GMT
Its a film that the more I think about it the more I dislike it.
|
|
|
|
Post by anthonyrocks on Jul 3, 2018 12:39:45 GMT
And you know what? It was actually not as bad. It kinda grew on me. Though Luke dying like that and able to project himself to another planet, I can never accept. That was bullshit. My guess is they were going to only keep Leia from the OT Triple Threat in there but now with Carrie gone, they screwed the pooch with that one. Well even if with Carrie Fisher, They are still bringing back characters from the Original Films (Chewbacca, C-3PO, R2D2) for " EPISODE IX". Also Supposedly, Billy Dee Williams will be Returning to play Lando Calrissian in " EPISODE IX" which I think would be Freaking Awesome!  |
|
|
|
Post by PreachCaleb on Jul 3, 2018 12:56:58 GMT
And Luke would know what ultimate evil feels like, which is why he'd fear it growing in his nephew. Luke didn't make a snap decision. It was in impulse. We can't control what our instincts are. However, h e stopped himself. That's the more important decision. It's not against what we know of the character because we know too often he goes with his emotions. He failed in the cave, he disobeyed Yoda to go after Han and Leia, he started using the force choke, he tried to kill The Emperor even though he knew it'd be a step toward the Dark side, he almost killed Vader. Violence is in his nature.
Not really. He tried to kill him in their very first meeting. But he'd known Ben for years.
When was that? Near the beginning of Return of the Jedi, when he enters Jaba's palace. He chokes the guards. |
|
|
|
Post by James Bond on Jul 3, 2018 12:59:46 GMT
Near the beginning of Return of the Jedi, when he enters Jaba's palace. He chokes the guards. I'll have to rewatch that scene. |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
@Deleted
Posts: 0
Likes:
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 3, 2018 15:16:12 GMT
And you know what? It was actually not as bad. It kinda grew on me. Though Luke dying like that and able to project himself to another planet, I can never accept. That was bullshit. My guess is they were going to only keep Leia from the OT Triple Threat in there but now with Carrie gone, they screwed the pooch with that one. Good to hear. |
|
