Eλευθερί
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Post by Eλευθερί on Aug 2, 2018 18:53:16 GMT
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Post by kls on Aug 3, 2018 0:11:58 GMT
I really don't put too much thought into what Francis says (but I'd say I lean more Democrat).
Isn't heads exploding kind of dramatic? I don't know anyone who is so staunchly let's use the death penalty, really. If life in prison means life in prison I think almost all are cool with that (as in they can at least accept that) anyhow.
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Eλευθερί
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Post by Eλευθερί on Aug 3, 2018 1:53:56 GMT
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Post by Aj_June on Aug 3, 2018 3:34:17 GMT
Catholics have also updated their beliefs regarding evolution (though it may not be as formal as on this one). Not that I have any personal opinion on the issue of death penalty, I do like it when a religion or sect changes or updates its stance on any issue to make it more right as per current perceptions. Non-theists should welcome such changes in religious schools. Many times religions keep on following or justifying whatever wrong practises are part of their text or customs. It takes courage to admit that something was wrong about previous stance. Although in this case Pope can justify (from his end) that Christianity was always against the death penalty.
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Post by politicidal on Aug 4, 2018 0:37:37 GMT
I'm sure some protestants are shaking their fists too.
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Post by CoolJGS☺ on Aug 4, 2018 2:11:40 GMT
Catholicism and their view of the death penalty should not be new to conservative Catholics even if they disagree with it.
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Post by OldSamVimes on Aug 4, 2018 7:59:00 GMT
..but without the death penalty how would Jesus have died for our sins?
Pope Francis is an idiot.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 4, 2018 21:04:43 GMT
..but without the death penalty how would Jesus have died for our sins? Maybe he'd have just foregone the whole torture/sacrifice thing and just forgiven people?
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Post by kls on Aug 4, 2018 21:06:37 GMT
..but without the death penalty how would Jesus have died for our sins? Maybe he'd have just foregone the whole torture/sacrifice thing and just forgiven people? I can't begin to pretend I understand God's plan in that regard. Just seems to me if it were that simple He'd have thought of that.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 4, 2018 21:25:14 GMT
Maybe he'd have just foregone the whole torture/sacrifice thing and just forgiven people? I can't begin to pretend I understand God's plan in that regard. Just seems to me if it were that simple He'd have thought of that. Almost seems like the story doesn't make sense. As if it's just made up.
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Post by general313 on Aug 5, 2018 0:26:16 GMT
Maybe he'd have just foregone the whole torture/sacrifice thing and just forgiven people? I can't begin to pretend I understand God's plan in that regard. Just seems to me if it were that simple He'd have thought of that. I think God's plan is not so unfathomable if you consider the financial angle.
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Post by Arlon10 on Aug 5, 2018 1:40:54 GMT
In my many years of experience it appears that many people who think there should be a "death penalty" are really more concerned about "self defense" and are afraid that unless a "death penalty" is allowed by law they will not adequately be able to defend themselves. Most people would not kill a person who is locked in a cage. If the criminal gets out of the cage and starts to go somewhere he shouldn't, then it gets really complicated and there can be endless arguments what qualifies as self defense.
The argument that the cost of maintaining the life of a criminal justifies killing him in some cases in the cage ignores the cost of determining whether he should be killed, which can be tens of times more expensive than basic subsistence, even over the course of many years. Compare the minimum wage to the fees of the several top lawyers, judges and courts.
Some people of course have a problem with how much legal matters cost and would have them made less expensive, but that is another matter entirely.
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Eλευθερί
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@eleutheri
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Post by Eλευθερί on Aug 5, 2018 4:08:03 GMT
The argument that the cost of maintaining the life of a criminal justifies killing him in some cases in the cage ignores the cost of determining whether he should be killed, which can be tens of times more expensive than basic subsistence, even over the course of many years. Compare the minimum wage to the fees of the several top lawyers, judges and courts. Some people of course have a problem with how much legal matters cost and would have them made less expensive, but that is another matter entirely. How much money is a person's life worth?
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Post by Arlon10 on Aug 5, 2018 10:35:22 GMT
The argument that the cost of maintaining the life of a criminal justifies killing him in some cases in the cage ignores the cost of determining whether he should be killed, which can be tens of times more expensive than basic subsistence, even over the course of many years. Compare the minimum wage to the fees of the several top lawyers, judges and courts. Some people of course have a problem with how much legal matters cost and would have them made less expensive, but that is another matter entirely. How much money is a person's life worth? That's a problem that gives people in insurance companies nightmares. Of course there is no amount of money "equal" to the value of a human life. There is just an amount they agree in advance to pay. Similarly in judgements against people who accidentally cause death there is an amount of money equal to the legal penalty, but necessarily equal to the full value of the life lost.
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Post by Aj_June on Aug 5, 2018 11:03:16 GMT
How much money is a person's life worth? That's a problem that gives people in insurance companies nightmares. Of course there is no amount of money "equal" to the value of a human life. There is just an amount they agree in advance to pay. Similarly in judgements against people who accidentally cause death there is an amount of money equal to the legal penalty, but necessarily equal to the full value of the life lost. Insurance companies also determine if they would go ahead with life insurance or not based on quality of health of their potential consumers. Some people who have severe heart problems might not even qualify for certain insurances.
Re: Death penalty and my view - I am not very strongly against death penalty in all cases. I believe there are countries that are less developed and where threat of death sentence may act as a deterrent against committing crimes. When people expect all countries to work as per their own standard then it feels a bit arrogant. Especially if they go on to say it is 'barbaric' countries that have death penalty. That said as a country's economy becomes better and law and order improves you might start to get done with death penalty.
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Post by Arlon10 on Aug 5, 2018 11:23:15 GMT
That's a problem that gives people in insurance companies nightmares. Of course there is no amount of money "equal" to the value of a human life. There is just an amount they agree in advance to pay. Similarly in judgements against people who accidentally cause death there is an amount of money equal to the legal penalty, but necessarily equal to the full value of the life lost. Insurance companies also determine if they would go ahead with life insurance or not based on quality of health of their potential consumers. Some people who have severe heart problems might not even qualify for certain insurances.
Re: Death penalty and my view - I am not very strongly against death penalty in all cases. I believe there are countries that are less developed and where threat of death sentence may be act as deterrent against committing crimes. When people expect all countries to work as per their own standard then it feels a bit arrogant. Especially if they go on to say it is 'barbaric' countries that have death penalty. That said as a country's economy becomes better and law and order improves you might start to get done with death penalty.
Of course insurance companies only pay the amount they agreed if the death occurs in one of the ways they agreed they would pay on, the point is the details are agreed in advance mutually arbitrarily and do not attempt to determine the full real value of a human life beyond that. As I said at the outset, not many people would kill a man who is locked in a cage. In countries where there is no advanced legal system or network of detention facilities quite yet then "self defense" becomes the issue far more often.
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Eλευθερί
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@eleutheri
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Post by Eλευθερί on Aug 5, 2018 18:21:15 GMT
How much money is a person's life worth? That's a problem that gives people in insurance companies nightmares. Of course there is no amount of money "equal" to the value of a human life. There is just an amount they agree in advance to pay. Similarly in judgements against people who accidentally cause death there is an amount of money equal to the legal penalty, but necessarily equal to the full value of the life lost. Insurance companies are amoral, if not immoral. How much is a person's life worth, speaking as a matter of morality?
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