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Post by OpiateOfTheMasses on Aug 7, 2018 21:48:44 GMT
This is mainly aimed at the believers out there...
Given that most believers seem to indicate that their religion is privy to a greater truth/higher form of morality than humanity can derive by itself, should that be enshrined into national law? Either in part or in full. And I don't necessarily mean the religion, but the civil and criminal rules that would arise from the morality taught by the religion?
Should that happen? Would you like to see that happen? Would it bother you that it would be forcing your religion's morality on people that don't believe it or would the knowledge that your religion is right so they are the rules people should be following make you good with that? Or are you happy to let the population at large pass laws that are in conflict with your religious beliefs and do you accept that?
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Post by CoolJGS☺ on Aug 7, 2018 21:59:11 GMT
No.
As long as the law does not dictate my religion, there should be too much conflict.
Of course, governments can have a tendency to be a little selfish with their loyalty expectations.
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Post by CoolJGS☺ on Aug 7, 2018 22:00:45 GMT
I forgot to add, I would never even want someone in my religion or sharing my beliefs that doesn't want to be there.
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Post by Arlon10 on Aug 7, 2018 22:25:35 GMT
Government coerces people however it was coerced or not. That's what's special about government. It establishes laws, not suggestions.
When people who have no qualifications at all except the the right to vote dictate what government will coerce, it can get ridiculous no matter how much they might know (or not) about religion or science.
If you are suggesting a solution involves silencing people whose understanding of religion might be flawed despite their infatuation with religion, what will you do about those whose understanding of science is flawed despite their infatuation with science?
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Post by theauxphou on Aug 8, 2018 4:04:13 GMT
Yeah, sure, they can dictate the law; I, for one, will not follow them. I don't recognise the teachings of fantasists.
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Post by The Herald Erjen on Aug 8, 2018 11:13:27 GMT
Can you provide any examples of religion dictating the law in recent years?
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Post by thefleetsin on Aug 8, 2018 14:35:08 GMT
ah, it's sort of the whole reason religions were thought up in the first place. if religions aren't here to control then what's the point in having them around at all.
certainly not to set anyone free. LOLOL mind control doesn't operate that way.
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Post by phludowin on Aug 8, 2018 19:51:52 GMT
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Post by Aj_June on Aug 8, 2018 20:23:31 GMT
This is mainly aimed at the believers out there... Given that most believers seem to indicate that their religion is privy to a greater truth/higher form of morality than humanity can derive by itself, should that be enshrined into national law? Either in part or in full. And I don't necessarily mean the religion, but the civil and criminal rules that would arise from the morality taught by the religion? Should that happen? Would you like to see that happen? Would it bother you that it would be forcing your religion's morality on people that don't believe it or would the knowledge that your religion is right so they are the rules people should be following make you good with that? Or are you happy to let the population at large pass laws that are in conflict with your religious beliefs and do you accept that? I am not a believer and never was before but If I may answer:
The answer to your question may depend upon the kind of believers and extent of tolerance and forward mentality in a particular country. if you were to ask Muslims of Azerbaijan and Muslims of Afghanistan then you may get extremely different answers. I believe for most part majority of countries in this world have laws that are in some way influenced by religion(s). But at this point of time people are behaving more according to where they are located. People of Iran & Afghanistan were definitely more open minded 30 years back than now but they had to pay for various reasons. While western powers committed their share of mistakes, I believe location of these countries became a deciding factor for what is their condition today. A European Muslim country such as Azerbaijan is much better off. But countries like Saudi Arabia and others acting in group have totally messed up the middle east. Even countries such as India has seen growing threat from Hindu & Muslim extremism and countries such as Thailand, Sri Lanka and Bhutan have seen rise in Buddhist extremism. Religions do play their roles even in these non-Muslim countries.
America is not as secular as Europe but Canada may be. In any case Pew Research polls may provide a hint at what Americans think about the question you posed in your OP. I will try to find them and post them here.
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Post by OpiateOfTheMasses on Aug 8, 2018 22:08:10 GMT
So... as far as I can tell we don't have any believers that believe that the principles laid down in their religious texts are so universally true that they should be made to apply to all? Is that right?
Because if that's the case, then I don't understand why there are campaigns against (for example) gay rights or abortion, as pretty much every argument against (especially gay rights) is based on religion and if the religious aren't in the least bit interested in forcing their principles on others then they should have no issue with what the law says. Should they? Or am I misunderstanding something?
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Post by The Herald Erjen on Aug 9, 2018 8:59:28 GMT
Saudi Arabia and Iran? My fault. I should have specified something a little closer to home.
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Post by CoolJGS☺ on Aug 9, 2018 10:49:20 GMT
So... as far as I can tell we don't have any believers that believe that the principles laid down in their religious texts are so universally true that they should be made to apply to all? Is that right? Because if that's the case, then I don't understand why there are campaigns against (for example) gay rights or abortion, as pretty much every argument against (especially gay rights) is based on religion and if the religious aren't in the least bit interested in forcing their principles on others then they should have no issue with what the law says. Should they? Or am I misunderstanding something? The principles laid down in my religious texts allow for choice. The campaigns against any number of things involve laws that can be changed by the citizen, so it is not even remotely off that there are people out there who, based on their religious beliefs & principles, cannot support something contrary to it iof the laws of the land allow them the choice to do so. In fact, it's odd to expect people to willingly support things they are against. I know I wouldn't. Even godless hordes will often campaign against something on the basis their feelings on it. Of course you are exaggerating the outrage a bit anyway, but the outrage shouldn't be shocking.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 9, 2018 12:20:03 GMT
No
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Post by wickedkittiesmom on Aug 9, 2018 14:58:18 GMT
Absolutely NOT!!!!
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Post by socalboy83 on Aug 9, 2018 23:47:14 GMT
NONE!
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Post by mslo79 on Aug 10, 2018 10:17:24 GMT
Basically guide things back to Christianity is always a safe bet in the long term as that's what this country (USA) has generally revolved around for a long time now. but yet some want to abandon what's proven good here for just about anything else besides that. basically it's the godless liberals who turned against God and really started to go off the rails with their support of abortion which is basically murder of a unborn child and once someone crosses that line they just open the door to other immoral things which you can see they are going further and further off the rails as time passes and it's accelerating (but the left see's this as "progress" instead of what it really is which is moral decline). it's likely a matter of time before pedophiles (and other immoral things) are supported by the left because they obviously don't base many of their choices around God and once you put God aside things tend to inevitably decline with enough time. so pretty much banning stuff like abortion is always a good thing for society outside of a rare occasion like when done to save a mother life. but at this point it's not done to end the babies life but to save the mothers so no wrong is committed unlike a typical abortion which is done solely to end the babies life which is obviously immoral to anyone who's not got a really twisted view of morality (but many on the left are totally blind and can't see right from wrong much anymore). so basically in cases like abortion etc the law should be clearly against it because it protects life at it's most innocent stage as when the law makes it easier for people to kill their own children, which is what democrats do, that obviously cannot be a good thing. they sugar-coat a evil act by calling it a "choice" when it's really a basically right-to-life issue. so there should definitely be at least some changes with abortion being the first one I would pretty much stop as it's a major offense against God (i.e. The Holy Trinity (Father/Son(Jesus Christ)/Holy Spirit)). p.s. but at this point in the time the world is accelerating in it's intolerance of Christianity (along with that those on the right(conservatives) since Christianity is generally more inline with the right) as you can see many on the left oppose it and start acting up. Toasted CheeseChristianity (and more specifically Catholic since it's THE church Jesus Christ started with Peter who's the first pope) is only extreme to a godless liberal because the more left they go (i.e. further moral decline) the more they will start to see Jesus Christ as 'too extreme'. also, there is nothing outdated about Jesus Christ's unchangeable truths. His moral standards are not determined by majority opinion. the further society ventures away from His moral standards the worse it will become in the long run (but many got to learn the hard way). at the rate the left is going lately, it's probably not going to be a stretch before pedophile stuff ends up being 'not that bad' etc as you can already see some stuff heading in that direction already. Islam on the other hand is just flat out bad for humanity as they are all about violence etc. Christianity(good) and Islam(evil) are directly opposed. but the left will never acknowledge this truth because many of them opposed the truth of God.
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Post by FilmFlaneur on Aug 10, 2018 11:29:54 GMT
Basically guide things back to Christianity is always a safe bet in the long term as that's what this country (USA) has generally revolved around for a long time now. but yet some want to abandon what's proven good here for just about anything else besides that. basically it's the godless liberals who turned against God and really started to go off the rails with their support of abortion which is basically murder of a unborn child and once someone crosses that line they just open the door to other immoral things which you can see they are going further and further off the rails as time passes and it's accelerating (but the left see's this as "progress" instead of what it really is which is moral decline). it's likely a matter of time before pedophiles (and other immoral things) are supported by the left because they obviously don't base many of their choices around God and once you put God aside things tend to inevitably decline with enough time. so pretty much banning stuff like abortion is always a good thing for society outside of a rare occasion like when done to save a mother life. but at this point it's not done to end the babies life but to save the mothers so no wrong is committed unlike a typical abortion which is done solely to end the babies life which is obviously immoral to anyone who's not got a really twisted view of morality (but many on the left are totally blind and can't see right from wrong much anymore). so basically in cases like abortion etc the law should be clearly against it because it protects life at it's most innocent stage as when the law makes it easier for people to kill their own children, which is what democrats do, that obviously cannot be a good thing. they sugar-coat a evil act by calling it a "choice" when it's really a basically right-to-life issue. so there should definitely be at least some changes with abortion being the first one I would pretty much stop as it's a major offense against God (i.e. The Holy Trinity (Father/Son(Jesus Christ)/Holy Spirit)). p.s. but at this point in the time the world is accelerating in it's intolerance of Christianity (along with that those on the right(conservatives) since Christianity is generally more inline with the right) as you can see many on the left oppose it and start acting up. Thank you, I enjoyed this (poorly punctuated and under-capitalised) rant a lot, and I am sure others will. It was very revealing.
Er.. can you remind us which bible verse deals with abortion specifically and where your Jesus condemns it? It would be a help to know from whence you get the authority for your moral ideas, as opposed to just making them up.
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