Eλευθερί
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@eleutheri
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Post by Eλευθερί on Aug 12, 2018 19:06:33 GMT
I went to a Catholic summer camp with my best friend for two or three summers when I was a kid. (Definitely two summers. I can't remember if there was a third because there were other years that my family went to a different, unrelated family summer camp that my friend didn't go to.) Must have been about seven or eight. The camp was operated by Catholic Charities. You didn't have to be Catholic to go there (my friend's family wasn't Catholic--they were Methodist), but I think most of the kids there were. I think we sang religious-oriented songs at breakfast every day, and said prayers before every meal. Other than that, there wasn't anything overtly religious about the experience. It was just camp--boating, swimming, archery, hikes in the woods, ghost stories by the campfire.
One of the years that we were there, there was this creepy counselor who was in charge of making sure we got to bed. This particular counselor would insist on watching each of us as we took a shower before going to bed. There was a small individual shower stall that had a curtain, but the counselor would stand there, head inside the stall, looking at you while you showered and would threaten to punish you if you didn't shower or if you uncovered your private parts. Even at that age, both I and my friend sensed that there was something wrong about what this counselor was doing, although neither of us remembered having ever been explicitly told that an adult couldn't watch you showering; and we talked about how uncomfortable being watched like that made us feel.
But the thing is I never mentioned it to my parents. I am not sure why. The counselor hadn't physically harmed either of us, for one thing. And in retrospect I suppose that we might have worried that if we had spoken up, it would have been our word against the word of an adult in a position of authority.
To be honest, I had completely forgotten about this for years and only remembered it a few years ago when some of the church molestation reports began to get attention in the news again. I finally mentioned it to my mother, and she said that one of the reasons that she had sent us to that particular camp was that my cousins had been counselors there, so the one or two of them that was there at the time would have been able to keep an eye out on us. However, as far as I can recall, my cousin was never actually involved in any way with the particular camp unit that my friend and I were in, so that had not made me feel any safer.
I mention all of this now in reflecting on how naysayers are so quick to ask why didn't victims of inappropriate sexual behavior by people in positions of authority not say anything until years--even decades--after the fact. Naysayers often say that if it really happened the victim would have spoken up at the time. From my own experience, I can directly understand why that is not necessarily the case. You go on with your life. You may even forget that it happened at all, but then the memory can come back.
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Post by rachelcarson1953 on Aug 13, 2018 6:04:29 GMT
I went to a Catholic summer camp with my best friend for two or three summers when I was a kid. (Definitely two summers. I can't remember if there was a third because there were other years that my family went to a different, unrelated family summer camp that my friend didn't go to.) Must have been about seven or eight. The camp was operated by Catholic Charities. You didn't have to be Catholic to go there (my friend's family wasn't Catholic--they were Methodist), but I think most of the kids there were. I think we sang religious-oriented songs at breakfast every day, and said prayers before every meal. Other than that, there wasn't anything overtly religious about the experience. It was just camp--boating, swimming, archery, hikes in the woods, ghost stories by the campfire. One of the years that we were there, there was this creepy counselor who was in charge of making sure we got to bed. This particular counselor would insist on watching each of us as we took a shower before going to bed. There was a small individual shower stall that had a curtain, but the counselor would stand there, head inside the stall, looking at you while you showered and would threaten to punish you if you didn't shower or if you uncovered your private parts. Even at that age, both I and my friend sensed that there was something wrong about what this counselor was doing, although neither of us remembered having ever been explicitly told that an adult couldn't watch you showering; and we talked about how uncomfortable being watched like that made us feel. But the thing is I never mentioned it to my parents. I am not sure why. The counselor hadn't physically harmed either of us, for one thing. And in retrospect I suppose that we might have worried that if we had spoken up, it would have been our word against the word of an adult in a position of authority. To be honest, I had completely forgotten about this for years and only remembered it a few years ago when some of the church molestation reports began to get attention in the news again. I finally mentioned it to my mother, and she said that one of the reasons that she had sent us to that particular camp was that my cousins had been counselors there, so the one or two of them that was there at the time would have been able to keep an eye out on us. However, as far as I can recall, my cousin was never actually involved in any way with the particular camp unit that my friend and I were in, so that had not made me feel any safer. I mention all of this now in reflecting on how naysayers are so quick to ask why didn't victims of inappropriate sexual behavior by people in positions of authority not say anything until years--even decades--after the fact. Naysayers often say that if it really happened the victim would have spoken up at the time. From my own experience, I can directly understand why that is not necessarily the case. You go on with your life. You may even forget that it happened at all, but then the memory can come back. Your story makes a very good point about why victims don't speak up at the time. And young children don't even have a concept of what inappropriate sexual behavior is, and if something makes them uncomfortable, they don't have the words to describe it and it would be uncomfortable to try to tell parent or other adult. And if there is an end to it - like going home from camp - why bring it up? The Catholic church has created an artificial environment that attracts pedophiles, and gives them the time and authority to groom certain children after gaining their trust. Your camp counselor was a sudden event, he didn't have time to groom, and just counted on kids being too embarrassed or threatened to tell on him. A priest has time to develop a relationship gradually and insidiously. You were creeped out by the counselor, but he didn't escalate and it all went away when you went home. I remember when I was in junior high school and was mortified that after gym class, we girls all had to shower together, not in separate stalls. I was shy and awkward to begin with, and this was just pure torture. Did I say anything to my parents? No - eeuw, how embarrassing - and it was school policy, what exactly were they going to do about it? I knew other girls were similarly uncomfortable with it, ones that were overweight or 'developed' young, but fight the school on it? Out of the question. It was just something that had to be endured. I was so glad to go to high school where phys ed was not mandatory. And, like you, I hadn't thought about it in years. Naysayers just want to deny that these things happen at all, they would prefer to blame or doubt the victim because it's the easiest option. |
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Eλευθερί
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@eleutheri
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Post by Eλευθερί on Aug 13, 2018 19:57:39 GMT
Your story makes a very good point about why victims don't speak up at the time. And young children don't even have a concept of what inappropriate sexual behavior is, and if something makes them uncomfortable, they don't have the words to describe it and it would be uncomfortable to try to tell parent or other adult. And if there is an end to it - like going home from camp - why bring it up? The Catholic church has created an artificial environment that attracts pedophiles, and gives them the time and authority to groom certain children after gaining their trust. Your camp counselor was a sudden event, he didn't have time to groom, and just counted on kids being too embarrassed or threatened to tell on him. A priest has time to develop a relationship gradually and insidiously. You were creeped out by the counselor, but he didn't escalate and it all went away when you went home. Naysayers just want to deny that these things happen at all, they would prefer to blame or doubt the victim because it's the easiest option. You're so right. When did Jesus ever say that ministers had to be celibate men? And it certainly didn't come from Moses or his followers, as outlined in the Torah. |
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Eλευθερί
Junior Member
@eleutheri
Posts: 3,710
Likes: 1,670
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Post by Eλευθερί on Aug 13, 2018 20:03:03 GMT
Actually, I'm not so sure that the Church attracts pedos so much as it provides an ambience in which people with those tendencies are more likely to express them. And then the Church, through its chosen methods of handling the problems, such as covering incidents up and fighting efforts by those outside the Church to get answers and justice for victims, makes it worse.
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Eλευθερί
Junior Member
@eleutheri
Posts: 3,710
Likes: 1,670
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Post by Eλευθερί on Aug 13, 2018 20:11:19 GMT
I remember when I was in junior high school and was mortified that after gym class, we girls all had to shower together, not in separate stalls. I was shy and awkward to begin with, and this was just pure torture. Did I say anything to my parents? No - eeuw, how embarrassing - and it was school policy, what exactly were they going to do about it? I knew other girls were similarly uncomfortable with it, ones that were overweight or 'developed' young, but fight the school on it? Out of the question. It was just something that had to be endured. I was so glad to go to high school where phys ed was not mandatory. And, like you, I hadn't thought about it in years. It was the same in my junior high, but continued into high school. (Anyone remember Brian De Palma's Carrie?) The difference though was that by high school, most of us were so used to it that we didn't make much of it, especially for those of us into sports. But in junior high, it was a real shock. On this same topic, there were a couple of phys ed teachers at my school who were extremely strict in enforcing the rule that everyone had to shower naked in front of everybody else. There were no individual stalls or curtains or anything, you just went into the shower with a bunch of other students and took a shower. The phys ed teacher would give you a towel to dry off as you exited the shower. I remember one day this dramatic standoff in the locker room between the teacher and a student who was refusing to get undressed and shower. Everybody was watching. The teacher was making all kinds of threats (I don't remember what they were, but probably threats of after-school detention and possibly suspension.) The student eventually gave in and very dramatically in front of everybody stripped down with this look of defiance and disgust at the teacher, then went into the shower. I don't know whether the rules had come from the school board or just the phys ed department (or even just these individual teachers). In retrospect, I do wonder about the motives of some of the teachers. |
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Post by rachelcarson1953 on Aug 13, 2018 20:47:41 GMT
Your story makes a very good point about why victims don't speak up at the time. And young children don't even have a concept of what inappropriate sexual behavior is, and if something makes them uncomfortable, they don't have the words to describe it and it would be uncomfortable to try to tell parent or other adult. And if there is an end to it - like going home from camp - why bring it up? The Catholic church has created an artificial environment that attracts pedophiles, and gives them the time and authority to groom certain children after gaining their trust. Your camp counselor was a sudden event, he didn't have time to groom, and just counted on kids being too embarrassed or threatened to tell on him. A priest has time to develop a relationship gradually and insidiously. You were creeped out by the counselor, but he didn't escalate and it all went away when you went home. Naysayers just want to deny that these things happen at all, they would prefer to blame or doubt the victim because it's the easiest option. You're so right. When did Jesus ever say that ministers had to be celibate men? And it certainly didn't come from Moses or his followers, as outlined in the Torah. And that raises yet another pesky question; wouldn't Jesus, as a young Jewish male, have been married himself? |
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Post by rachelcarson1953 on Aug 13, 2018 20:55:02 GMT
Actually, I'm not so sure that the Church attracts pedos so much as it provides an ambience in which people with those tendencies are more likely to express them. And then the Church, through its chosen methods of handling the problems, such as covering incidents up and fighting efforts by those outside the Church to get answers and justice for victims, makes it worse. I'd agree with that. That's what really angers me, that pedophile priests aren't frigging thrown in jail with the non-Catholic pedophiles. The Catholic powers-that-be hide behind separation of church and state, and 'forgiveness' and what-not... They are still pedophiles, treat them as the criminals that they are. |
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Post by CoolJGS☺ on Aug 13, 2018 20:55:48 GMT
You're so right. When did Jesus ever say that ministers had to be celibate men? And it certainly didn't come from Moses or his followers, as outlined in the Torah. And that raises yet another pesky question; wouldn't Jesus, as a young Jewish male, have been married himself? Jews weren't required to be married, so not sure why that would be a pesky question given what his oft stated intent was. |
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Post by rachelcarson1953 on Aug 13, 2018 21:10:50 GMT
I remember when I was in junior high school and was mortified that after gym class, we girls all had to shower together, not in separate stalls. I was shy and awkward to begin with, and this was just pure torture. Did I say anything to my parents? No - eeuw, how embarrassing - and it was school policy, what exactly were they going to do about it? I knew other girls were similarly uncomfortable with it, ones that were overweight or 'developed' young, but fight the school on it? Out of the question. It was just something that had to be endured. I was so glad to go to high school where phys ed was not mandatory. And, like you, I hadn't thought about it in years. It was the same in my junior high, but continued into high school. (Anyone remember Brian De Palma's Carrie?) The difference though was that by high school, most of us were so used to it that we didn't make much of it, especially for those of us into sports. But in junior high, it was a real shock. On this same topic, there were a couple of phys ed teachers at my school who were extremely strict in enforcing the rule that everyone had to shower naked in front of everybody else. There were no individual stalls or curtains or anything, you just went into the shower with a bunch of other students and took a shower. The phys ed teacher would give you a towel to dry off as you exited the shower. I remember one day this dramatic standoff in the locker room between the teacher and a student who was refusing to get undressed and shower. Everybody was watching. The teacher was making all kinds of threats (I don't remember what they were, but probably threats of after-school detention and possibly suspension.) The student eventually gave in and very dramatically in front of everybody stripped down with this look of defiance and disgust at the teacher, then went into the shower. I don't know whether the rules had come from the school board or just the phys ed department (or even just these individual teachers). In retrospect, I do wonder about the motives of some of the teachers. Yeah, just reading this has given me a case of the 'willies' and a few unfortunate flashbacks... there were two female gym teachers; one older married woman and the other never married... and she was the 'shower police'... hmmmm. I have zero problems with gays, lesbians, straights, bisexuals, et al, but dammit, leave under-age kids out of it! Consenting adults only. |
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Post by captainbryce on Aug 17, 2018 11:04:37 GMT
I feel like almost everyone has a story like this from when they were a child. I honestly don’t know anyone who wasn’t either made uncomfortable by some creeper, or touched inappropriately, or something worse happening to them when they were a child at the hands of an adult. And that’s just sad! It’s no longer this rare thing anymore; it’s commonplace.
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Post by mslo79 on Aug 30, 2018 10:47:33 GMT
This YouTube talk seems to suggest it's more of a homosexual problem than a pedophile problem in general... www.youtube.com/watch?v=0MMiI_UGUVYseems like only a small percentage of sexual abuses are on prepubescent kids. |
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Post by Aj_June on Aug 30, 2018 18:57:44 GMT
Eλευθερί M-slovak has offered an explanation from his own favoured source. I think you may have to look at it. Apparently pedo problem isn't a "big" problem.
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