|
Post by Arlon10 on Aug 20, 2018 7:19:02 GMT
Many of us are against abortion but we just don't believe the government can patrol a woman's womb. It's a matter of individual rights over the state. Yes, abortion is selfish and unethical. But most selfish unethical acts are legal. How do you propose to force a woman to carry a baby she does not want? One of the more successful arguments for the pro abortion (or cancelling stupid choices) movement was that if women are not allowed to have legal abortions they'll just get illegal ones, which are often botched and have tragic medical consequences sometimes even death of the mother. The next question some people had was whether the botched abortions were accidental or deliberate. I'm not the one to ask about that. I don't know. I suppose there are terribly mean people out there.
|
|
|
Post by Arlon10 on Aug 20, 2018 13:21:24 GMT
Another point you seem to have missed is that the ounce of prevention solution, avoiding sex that leads to unwanted pregnancy, is a very logical and sensible solution. Some people take more risk, some people prefer to take less risk. As long as the people who take risks understand that they are responsible for what happens, that's usually fine enough. If you gamble and lose you should not expect to just wipe the board clean and start all over by getting an abortion. Creating human life means being responsible for it. If it appears you are not responsible because of the actions of a criminal then that would indeed be different.
|
|
|
Post by amyghost on Aug 20, 2018 16:15:23 GMT
So you think it's okay for a baby to suffer horrendous neglect and physical abuse by a mother who was psychologically unfit or otherwise utterly unprepared to care for that child, but had it because there was no alternative? Are you willing to adopt one of those children, or substantially contribute financially and otherwise to its well-being? I'm betting not, but you sure like to lecture others on something you're probably completely unwilling to step up to the plate on yourself--just like most anti-choice loudmouthers. The notion that the law cannot expect to hold people responsible for their choices and debts unless people are willing to take over those debts makes no sense. If people were willing to take over those debts they wouldn't need the law to hold anyone responsible for them. Even so, there are people waiting to adopt, maybe not everyone is waiting to adopt, maybe not a majority is waiting to adopt, but there are plenty. Another point you seem to have missed is that the ounce of prevention solution, avoiding sex that leads to unwanted pregnancy, is a very logical and sensible solution. Your answer is the typical anti-choice evasion. No one is saying a word regarding obligations 'by law'. You, however, are quite comfortable with invoking the law to force women to incur debt through the bearing of children for which they have little or no ability to provide. I have not much doubt you're also quite comfortable with the idea of curtailing welfare programs designed to give that financial aid. You're also pretty cozy with the notion that adults should curtail sexual activity rather than make available sensible contraception at an affordable price and the educational tools whereby to use it, as a means of preventing pregnancy. Do you practice what you preach, by the way? If you're in the mood, but don't want to make babies, do you simply abstain from the act?
As for your simplistic 'adoption' answer--no there are not 'plenty' waiting to adopt, and of the ones that are, most of the children available are not what these people are looking for in terms of age and race. Were this not the case, there would hardly be the backlog of children waiting for adoption that now exists, many of whom will never find permanent homes.
|
|
|
Post by amyghost on Aug 20, 2018 21:16:12 GMT
amyghost
YEP, as GOD blessed me with the intelligence and skills to generate the gelt, babykins.
Also, I kept my knees together, knowing in my youth, the potential for a child is a very serious matter.
Well good on you. And you're right--the bringing of another life into the world is a serious matter, and all the more reason why shortsighted laws that would force the unprepared to do so should never be enacted. By the way, 'babykins'--I also have the intelligence and skills to 'generate the gelt' as you so tactfully put it. I also chose not to have children as I felt I was not parenting material, and decided not to put my uncertainties to the test on a young life. But I didn't keep my knees together as an adult, and would never counsel another adult to the practice of unwilling abstinence as any manner of sensible birth control. That it worked for you--for whatever reason--is fine, but an attempt to impose your personal moral stance on the rest of we frail mortals is arrogant at best, and foolishly doomed to failure under any circumstances.
|
|
|
Post by Arlon10 on Aug 20, 2018 21:41:45 GMT
The notion that the law cannot expect to hold people responsible for their choices and debts unless people are willing to take over those debts makes no sense. If people were willing to take over those debts they wouldn't need the law to hold anyone responsible for them. Even so, there are people waiting to adopt, maybe not everyone is waiting to adopt, maybe not a majority is waiting to adopt, but there are plenty. Another point you seem to have missed is that the ounce of prevention solution, avoiding sex that leads to unwanted pregnancy, is a very logical and sensible solution. Your answer is the typical anti-choice evasion. No one is saying a word regarding obligations 'by law'. You, however, are quite comfortable with invoking the law to force women to incur debt through the bearing of children for which they have little or no ability to provide. I have not much doubt you're also quite comfortable with the idea of curtailing welfare programs designed to give that financial aid. You're also pretty cozy with the notion that adults should curtail sexual activity rather than make available sensible contraception at an affordable price and the educational tools whereby to use it, as a means of preventing pregnancy. Do you practice what you preach, by the way? If you're in the mood, but don't want to make babies, do you simply abstain from the act?
As for your simplistic 'adoption' answer--no there are not 'plenty' waiting to adopt, and of the ones that are, most of the children available are not what these people are looking for in terms of age and race. Were this not the case, there would hardly be the backlog of children waiting for adoption that now exists, many of whom will never find permanent homes.
If I read correctly what you mean, you are certain that no one can prevent irresponsible behavior, therefore we must allow people to destroy the evidence of their irresponsible behavior, or pay for the consequences of it out of our own pockets. The premise is wrong. It is possible to prevent irresponsible behavior by placing legal penalties on it. There are more than two choices after the irresponsible behavior occurs then. One is forcing you to pay for the consequences of your own irresponsible behavior. If that is not in the best interests of the child, then the child can be taken away and you can still pay for it anyway. Does the idea of avoiding the irresponsible behavior in the first place start to make sense to you yet?
|
|
|
Post by amyghost on Aug 20, 2018 22:14:49 GMT
Your answer is the typical anti-choice evasion. No one is saying a word regarding obligations 'by law'. You, however, are quite comfortable with invoking the law to force women to incur debt through the bearing of children for which they have little or no ability to provide. I have not much doubt you're also quite comfortable with the idea of curtailing welfare programs designed to give that financial aid. You're also pretty cozy with the notion that adults should curtail sexual activity rather than make available sensible contraception at an affordable price and the educational tools whereby to use it, as a means of preventing pregnancy. Do you practice what you preach, by the way? If you're in the mood, but don't want to make babies, do you simply abstain from the act?
As for your simplistic 'adoption' answer--no there are not 'plenty' waiting to adopt, and of the ones that are, most of the children available are not what these people are looking for in terms of age and race. Were this not the case, there would hardly be the backlog of children waiting for adoption that now exists, many of whom will never find permanent homes.
If I read correctly what you mean, you are certain that no one can prevent irresponsible behavior, therefore we must allow people to destroy the evidence of their irresponsible behavior, or pay for the consequences of it out of our own pockets. The premise is wrong. It is possible to prevent irresponsible behavior by placing legal penalties on it. There are more than two choices after the irresponsible behavior occurs then. One is forcing you to pay for the consequences of your own irresponsible behavior. If that is not in the best interests of the child, then the child can be taken away and you can still pay for it anyway. Does the idea of avoiding the irresponsible behavior in the first place start to make sense to you yet? You attempt the usual virtue-signaller's ploy of implying that any and all who disagree with your stance are moral idiots who can't conceive (pardon the pun) of the idea of avoiding 'irresponsible behavior'. Avoidance is always best, but life is not perfect, and no adult should be forced to 'avoid' responding to normal human drives for physical intimacy. I'm going to make a personal reveal here; all things considered, for whatever the risk, I feel it's worth taking. I have had an abortion. Twenty years ago (I was 33 at the time), I was in a relationship which neither was prepared to take into a lifetime commitment. Realizing this, I was very careful to use proper and effective contraception, in this case oral contraceptives, i.e. The Pill. The Pill has an effectiveness rate of approximately 98%. However, as in all things human, it is not totally foolproof and can fail. In my case I was one of the 2% where this happened. I was told by my gynecologist that the risks of either a dangerous miscarriage or almost certain horrific physical defect to the fetus was pretty much a certainty. As I had no wish to subject a child to such a fate, I chose to abort the pregnancy. I have never regretted doing so, nor did I regret it at the time, though it was a sad decision to have to make. Now, to a highly moral sort such as yourself, no doubt I was an irresponsible slut who failed to use the backup method of a chastity belt to prevent unplanned pregnancy, and thus should have been forced to bear the burden of my wanton behaviors in the form of a terribly deformed child. Of course, were I to be so morally weak as to have this burden be too much for me, I could always place the child (assuming it lived) with one of those adoption agencies that specialize in placing badly handicapped children with one of those thousands of couples who are eagerly seeking to adopt such a child. And of course, I could have assumed the financial responsibility for it in any case, as further punishment for my crime, as you state. To this, I say: what a self-righteous clown you are. You know nothing-- NOTHING--about what is involved in any instance of any woman's choice to abort. Yet you sit on your moral high ground, presuming 'could' and 'should' to those same women. You lecture about 'responsible' and 'irresponsible' behaviors as if you knew anything whatsoever about the background of any of these situations; it's a pity that some manner of legal penalties can't be applied to that sort of high-handed and ignorant judgementalism, but alas, not only are there none, it would seem we live in a society which crowns blowhard know-nothingness such as you display with the laurel wreath of supposed virtue. But it's safe to say that your virtue is probably as hollow as your knowledge, and likely as poor and mean as your shriveled sense of compassion.
|
|
|
Post by Arlon10 on Aug 20, 2018 22:43:35 GMT
If I read correctly what you mean, you are certain that no one can prevent irresponsible behavior, therefore we must allow people to destroy the evidence of their irresponsible behavior, or pay for the consequences of it out of our own pockets. The premise is wrong. It is possible to prevent irresponsible behavior by placing legal penalties on it. There are more than two choices after the irresponsible behavior occurs then. One is forcing you to pay for the consequences of your own irresponsible behavior. If that is not in the best interests of the child, then the child can be taken away and you can still pay for it anyway. Does the idea of avoiding the irresponsible behavior in the first place start to make sense to you yet? You attempt the usual virtue-signaller's ploy of implying that any and all who disagree with your stance are moral idiots who can't conceive (pardon the pun) of the idea of avoiding 'irresponsible behavior'. Avoidance is always best, but life is not perfect, and no adult should be forced to 'avoid' responding to normal human drives for physical intimacy. I'm going to make a personal reveal here; all things considered, for whatever the risk, I feel it's worth taking. I have had an abortion. Twenty years ago (I was 33 at the time), I was in a relationship which neither was prepared to take into a lifetime commitment. Realizing this, I was very careful to use proper and effective contraception, in this case oral contraceptives, i.e. The Pill. The Pill has an effectiveness rate of approximately 98%. However, as in all things human, it is not totally foolproof and can fail. In my case I was one of the 2% where this happened. I was told by my gynecologist that the risks of either a dangerous miscarriage or almost certain horrific physical defect to the fetus was pretty much a certainty. As I had no wish to subject a child to such a fate, I chose to abort the pregnancy. I have never regretted doing so, nor did I regret it at the time, though it was a sad decision to have to make. Now, to a highly moral sort such as yourself, no doubt I was an irresponsible slut who failed to use the backup method of a chastity belt to prevent unplanned pregnancy, and thus should have been forced to bear the burden of my wanton behaviors in the form of a terribly deformed child. Of course, were I to be so morally weak as to have this burden be to much for me, I could always place the child (assuming it lived) with one of those adoption agencies that specialize in placing badly handicapped children with one of those thousands of couples who are eagerly seeking to adopt such a child. And of course, I could have assumed the financial responsibility for it in any case, as further punishment for my crime, as you state. To this, I say: what a self-righteous clown you are. You know nothing-- NOTHING--about what is involved in any instance of any woman's choice to abort. Yet you sit on your moral high ground, presuming 'could' and 'should' to those same women. You lecture about 'responsible' and 'irresponsible' behaviors as if you knew anything whatsoever about the background of any of these situations; it's a pity that some manner of legal penalties can't be applied to that sort of high-handed and ignorant judgemenatlism, but alas, not only are there none, it would seem we live in a society which crowns blowhard know-nothingness such as you display with the laurel wreath of supposed virtue. But it's safe to say that your virtue is probably as hollow as your knowledge, and likely as poor and mean as your shriveled sense of compassion. If I read correctly what you mean, it can be best to put "deformed" people out of their misery. Really? Have you ever walked up to handicapped people and shot them dead to put them out of their misery? Why not? What's the difference? Life deals some people a bad set of cards. They don't get the star athlete or genius they wanted. Some people get nothing and would be happy to have a child, even with special needs, even with a chance of dying anyway despite all the help possible. I do not believe you have been totally honest about the advice you received, but I suppose some people do get bad advice. There are exceptions allowed for extraordinary medical complications, the "life of the mother" is one, I don't have the complete list. You might be surprised how many mothers would rather die than abort their child. No, you do not have to be that noble. It is legal to be far less noble. You have however not made a good argument for "abortion on demand."
|
|
|
Post by amyghost on Aug 20, 2018 22:50:58 GMT
You attempt the usual virtue-signaller's ploy of implying that any and all who disagree with your stance are moral idiots who can't conceive (pardon the pun) of the idea of avoiding 'irresponsible behavior'. Avoidance is always best, but life is not perfect, and no adult should be forced to 'avoid' responding to normal human drives for physical intimacy. I'm going to make a personal reveal here; all things considered, for whatever the risk, I feel it's worth taking. I have had an abortion. Twenty years ago (I was 33 at the time), I was in a relationship which neither was prepared to take into a lifetime commitment. Realizing this, I was very careful to use proper and effective contraception, in this case oral contraceptives, i.e. The Pill. The Pill has an effectiveness rate of approximately 98%. However, as in all things human, it is not totally foolproof and can fail. In my case I was one of the 2% where this happened. I was told by my gynecologist that the risks of either a dangerous miscarriage or almost certain horrific physical defect to the fetus was pretty much a certainty. As I had no wish to subject a child to such a fate, I chose to abort the pregnancy. I have never regretted doing so, nor did I regret it at the time, though it was a sad decision to have to make. Now, to a highly moral sort such as yourself, no doubt I was an irresponsible slut who failed to use the backup method of a chastity belt to prevent unplanned pregnancy, and thus should have been forced to bear the burden of my wanton behaviors in the form of a terribly deformed child. Of course, were I to be so morally weak as to have this burden be to much for me, I could always place the child (assuming it lived) with one of those adoption agencies that specialize in placing badly handicapped children with one of those thousands of couples who are eagerly seeking to adopt such a child. And of course, I could have assumed the financial responsibility for it in any case, as further punishment for my crime, as you state. To this, I say: what a self-righteous clown you are. You know nothing-- NOTHING--about what is involved in any instance of any woman's choice to abort. Yet you sit on your moral high ground, presuming 'could' and 'should' to those same women. You lecture about 'responsible' and 'irresponsible' behaviors as if you knew anything whatsoever about the background of any of these situations; it's a pity that some manner of legal penalties can't be applied to that sort of high-handed and ignorant judgemenatlism, but alas, not only are there none, it would seem we live in a society which crowns blowhard know-nothingness such as you display with the laurel wreath of supposed virtue. But it's safe to say that your virtue is probably as hollow as your knowledge, and likely as poor and mean as your shriveled sense of compassion. If I read correctly what you mean, it can be best to put "deformed" people out of their misery. Really? Have you ever walked up to handicapped people and shot them dead to put them out of their misery? Why not? What's the difference? Life deals some people a bad set of cards. They don't get the star athlete or genius they wanted. Some people get nothing and would be happy to have a child, even with special needs, even with a chance of dying anyway despite all the help possible. I do not believe you have been totally honest about the advice you received, but I suppose some people do get bad advice. There are exceptions allowed for extraordinary medical complications, the "life of the mother" is one, I don't have the complete list. You might be surprised how many mothers would rather die than abort their child. No, you do not have to be that noble. It is legal to be far less noble. You have however not made a good argument for "abortion on demand." Your post is a marvellously disgusting reveal of your own personality, nothing more. As such, I leave it to stand for others to judge without further comment.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
@Deleted
Posts: 0
Likes:
|
Post by Deleted on Aug 21, 2018 0:00:15 GMT
Many of us are against abortion but we just don't believe the government can patrol a woman's womb. It's a matter of individual rights over the state. Yes, abortion is selfish and unethical. But most selfish unethical acts are legal. How do you propose to force a woman to carry a baby she does not want? I don't know how an atheist can come to the conclusion that abortion is "selfish and unethical". So you think that the unborn childrens' 'souls' float about in some other unseen dimension feeling tortured by deprivation after they are aborted? Having the baby is selfish and unethical, because it imposes risk on the offspring (without consent) for a purported 'benefit' (which actually only consists of the chance to try and stave off deprivation and hope that one is lucky enough in the lottery to avoid the worst of the harms) that wasn't needed or desired.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
@Deleted
Posts: 0
Likes:
|
Post by Deleted on Aug 21, 2018 0:03:26 GMT
Some people take more risk, some people prefer to take less risk. As long as the people who take risks understand that they are responsible for what happens, that's usually fine enough. If you gamble and lose you should not expect to just wipe the board clean and start all over by getting an abortion. Creating human life means being responsible for it. If it appears you are not responsible because of the actions of a criminal then that would indeed be different. People should have the right to have sex without being burdened by having to support another life in case the condom breaks, and also there is the case of women who did not invite risk upon themselves and were sexually violated. Having the child, especially if not even wanted and you are unable to support it, is not a responsible act at all. The responsible act would be not to impose risk on someone who cannot consent to the terms of the risk.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
@Deleted
Posts: 0
Likes:
|
Post by Deleted on Aug 21, 2018 0:26:14 GMT
Having respect is to not force someone into a forced march across a dangerous minefield without getting consent. An aborted foetus doesn't know or care that it's been aborted. It's been spared all of the risks and privations of this world without having been deprived of anything that the living might deem to be a benefit. It will never consciously experience being harmed (or even if it does have this capability, it would be an extremely fleeting sensation, compared to a life of being harmed and trying to avoid harm if it is born) or being trespassed against. Being aborted is the next best thing to never having been conceived in the first place. That's an interesting point of view. I think that if you weren't a theist, you would likely be an antinatalist as well. Honestly, I think that you would be less unhappy as a secular antinatalist than you are as a Christian. Having to try to believe in something comforting is more likely to accomplish the opposite of what you're aiming for, if you're capable of perceiving aspects of the reality from which you're trying to protect yourself. I kind of found this out from personal experience.
|
|
|
Post by Arlon10 on Aug 21, 2018 0:27:00 GMT
And yet they probably won't, or at least not without consequences they would rather avoid. Get smart, avoid the consequences buy avoiding sex. Or deal with the consequences. 2) ... ... also there is the case of women who did not invite risk upon themselves and were sexually violated. ... ... Why didn't I think of that? Oh wait, I did. That happens to be a very convincing argument why people should not have the right to have sex irresponsibly. Maybe take your own advice.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
@Deleted
Posts: 0
Likes:
|
Post by Deleted on Aug 21, 2018 0:47:48 GMT
OK, you did. I take it back. I didn't understand your last sentence in that post when reading it for the first time. I have no interest in sex, and I'm homosexual anyway. So there's no chance of me accidentally having a child through my own negligence. But people should have the right to sex, but should use conception and women should always have an abortion if they do conceive in spite of the precautions that they have taken.
|
|
|
Post by amyghost on Aug 21, 2018 1:20:22 GMT
OK, you did. I take it back. I didn't understand your last sentence in that post when reading it for the first time. I have no interest in sex, and I'm homosexual anyway. So there's no chance of me accidentally having a child through my own negligence. But people should have the right to sex, but should use conception and women should always have an abortion if they do conceive in spite of the precautions that they have taken. I think Arlon inadvertently gives a pretty good reveal into his general mindset via the inference that sexual activity is a 'right' that should be granted only after the participants' motives have been thoroughly vetted (by himself, perhaps?) and weighed according to the level of 'responsibility' those motives demonstrate. The 'responsibility' of course, would involve proving that any and all sexual activity is to be for procreative purposes only, no deviations from this allowed. The pity is, Arlon can't be honest enough to openly state this, in large measure because he realizes that his stance is Neanderthalian enough to get him laughed off of any conversation taking place amongst those who have evolved above the level of agitating to bring back laws allowing for public witch burnings.
|
|
|
Post by The Herald Erjen on Aug 21, 2018 8:47:46 GMT
That's an interesting point of view. I think that if you weren't a theist, you would likely be an antinatalist as well. Honestly, I think that you would be less unhappy as a secular antinatalist than you are as a Christian. Having to try to believe in something comforting is more likely to accomplish the opposite of what you're aiming for, if you're capable of perceiving aspects of the reality from which you're trying to protect yourself. I kind of found this out from personal experience. Hopefully it is working out well for you.
|
|
|
Post by FilmFlaneur on Aug 21, 2018 8:59:09 GMT
I don't know about you, but I love orgasm and rare steak enough to justify living, not to mention a beautiful blue sky. I'm thankful I wasn't preemptively aborted. The answer to this is that an unwanted child, perhaps born into poverty and neglect, born after rape or abuse, or one with a limiting congenital disease easily noted in the womb, might well wish they weren't born in the first place.
|
|
|
Post by Arlon10 on Aug 21, 2018 10:02:21 GMT
One of the more successful arguments for the pro abortion (or cancelling stupid choices) movement was that if women are not allowed to have legal abortions they'll just get illegal ones, which are often botched and have tragic medical consequences sometimes even death of the mother. The next question some people had was whether the botched abortions were accidental or deliberate. I'm not the one to ask about that. I don't know. I suppose there are terribly mean people out there. I agree that the comparison of safe legal abortions to back alley illegal abortion is a weak one. If abortion were illegal today there would be a high tech underground industry doing clean safe abortions. I believe it's more a question of personal autonomy over the body. I don't respect a woman who aborts her own child. But I don't see how the government or anyone can ethically and practically force human beings to carry another life in their womb if the mother just does not want it there. Even the Bible agrees that abortion is an ethical issue, not one of crime and murder. In Exodus 21:22-25 if a man strikes a woman causing the death of her fetus, he is merely fined, not imprisoned or put to death for murder. Common sense told the authors of the Bible and us today that government jurisdiction does not extend to the womb. Your argument that abortion is only a matter of the woman's rights would make sense except for one important thing. If sex only involved two people then only what those two people thought would matter. Quite often sex creates a third person, the child. Abortion is illegal (still in many circumstances) not because other parties' not involved have interests that matter, but because the interests of the child matter. Since we already know the interests of the child do matter even before the child is born and current law agrees, the question is not just the woman's rights. You need to make an argument that there is no "child." Only then would it have no rights to consider. Only then would your argument about "rights" make any sense. You're trying to solve a medical matter with a political one. That's bound to fail eventually.
|
|
|
Post by amyghost on Aug 21, 2018 18:14:07 GMT
I agree that the comparison of safe legal abortions to back alley illegal abortion is a weak one. If abortion were illegal today there would be a high tech underground industry doing clean safe abortions. I believe it's more a question of personal autonomy over the body. I don't respect a woman who aborts her own child. But I don't see how the government or anyone can ethically and practically force human beings to carry another life in their womb if the mother just does not want it there. Even the Bible agrees that abortion is an ethical issue, not one of crime and murder. In Exodus 21:22-25 if a man strikes a woman causing the death of her fetus, he is merely fined, not imprisoned or put to death for murder. Common sense told the authors of the Bible and us today that government jurisdiction does not extend to the womb. Your argument that abortion is only a matter of the woman's rights would make sense except for one important thing. If sex only involved two people then only what those two people thought would matter. Quite often sex creates a third person, the child. Abortion is illegal (still in many circumstances) not because other parties' not involved have interests that matter, but because the interests of the child matter. Since we already know the interests of the child do matter even before the child is born and current law agrees, the question is not just the woman's rights. You need to make an argument that there is no "child." Only then would it have no rights to consider. Only then would your argument about "rights" make any sense. You're trying to solve a medical matter with a political one. That's bound to fail eventually. Most polls find that the majority of Americans favor a woman's right to abortion:
www.bing.com/search?q=percentage+of+americans+who+favor+women's+rights+to+abortion&src=IE-SearchBox&FORM=IENAE1
Most, if not all, Americans vote. If the current administration falls (as seems likely) and Democrats take a majority of seats, your 'medical' matter will become a political one--as it already is, and as you're happy to have it be, as long as the politics run in your favor.
A large percentage of medical doctors also favor pro-choice rights, so it appears 'medicine' isn't particularly on your side either:
www.bing.com/search?q=percentage+of+doctors+who+favor+a+woman%27s+right+to+abortion&FORM=AWRE
The only thing that's going to 'fail eventually' is your archaic stance, which puts fetal life at the forefront, and cares little or nothing about that life once it's post-birth.
I don't know where you live, but in the US, first-trimester abortion is still legal nearly everywhere, despite the zealots who've done their best to intimidate providers away.
At any rate, your last paragraph shows that you're apparently trying to have it both ways. If it's a medical matter, as you state, it's a private matter between a woman and her physician, and none of your affair. It's clear you don't accept this, and want to politicize it by making it a matter of state-mandated law over the supposed child's 'legal rights'.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
@Deleted
Posts: 0
Likes:
|
Post by Deleted on Aug 22, 2018 2:15:04 GMT
I don't know how an atheist can come to the conclusion that abortion is "selfish and unethical". So you think that the unborn childrens' 'souls' float about in some other unseen dimension feeling tortured by deprivation after they are aborted? Having the baby is selfish and unethical, because it imposes risk on the offspring (without consent) for a purported 'benefit' (which actually only consists of the chance to try and stave off deprivation and hope that one is lucky enough in the lottery to avoid the worst of the harms) that wasn't needed or desired. It has nothing to do with the religious concept of a "soul" which we don't even know exists. I'm saying let every human make the decision for himself whether or not he wants to live. These mothers are making a decision for a potential child that it will never have a shot at a life. Ultimately every being should be given the opportunity to decide for himself. And some very happy and accomplished adults were abused as children, so that's irrelevant. I don't know about you, but I love orgasm and rare steak enough to justify living, not to mention a beautiful blue sky. I'm thankful I wasn't preemptively aborted. If you were aborted, you would never have had any craving for orgasms or rare steak. You would never have been deprived of them, just like the chair that I'm sitting in right now is not being deprived of anything due to lacking consciousness. On the contrary, you needed to have been born in order for you to be deprived of steak and looking at blue sky. To be or not to be is a choice that I would rather have not had, especially as "not to be" is a choice that is strongly proscribed by the jurisprudence of the society that I find myself living in. The joys of being alive grant me nothing more than partial relief from the harms and privations that this life inflicts on me just by its continuance. Having another child so that it can experience 'joy' and decide whether it was 'worth it' or not (something that you can't really assess, given that you can never know what it is like never to have existed) is like a fireman who sets off fires in order to put them out again and justify his existence. My argument is that nobody should be subjected to harm and deprivation, and nobody who doesn't exist can ever be deprived of anything, because they don't exist. At the moment, I have my little addictions and cravings that give me the illusion that I'm getting something out of life. But if my consciousness ceases to exist when I'm in my bed asleep, then my cravings and addictions evaporate, and so does any need or desire to have them gratified. I'd have rather that my parents had been rational enough to have realised this when my mother was pregnant with me, and to have aborted me. Even if I were enjoying my life, I would not be able to rationally say that I was glad to be alive, because never to have been born is never to have been in need of gratification in the first place (which is just as good as any vision of paradise).
|
|
|
Post by Arlon10 on Aug 22, 2018 4:58:05 GMT
Your argument that abortion is only a matter of the woman's rights would make sense except for one important thing. If sex only involved two people then only what those two people thought would matter. Quite often sex creates a third person, the child. Abortion is illegal (still in many circumstances) not because other parties' not involved have interests that matter, but because the interests of the child matter. Since we already know the interests of the child do matter even before the child is born and current law agrees, the question is not just the woman's rights. You need to make an argument that there is no "child." Only then would it have no rights to consider. Only then would your argument about "rights" make any sense. You're trying to solve a medical matter with a political one. That's bound to fail eventually. Most polls find that the majority of Americans favor a woman's right to abortion:
www.bing.com/search?q=percentage+of+americans+who+favor+women's+rights+to+abortion&src=IE-SearchBox&FORM=IENAE1
Most, if not all, Americans vote. If the current administration falls (as seems likely) and Democrats take a majority of seats, your 'medical' matter will become a political one--as it already is, and as you're happy to have it be, as long as the politics run in your favor.
A large percentage of medical doctors also favor pro-choice rights, so it appears 'medicine' isn't particularly on your side either:
www.bing.com/search?q=percentage+of+doctors+who+favor+a+woman%27s+right+to+abortion&FORM=AWRE
The only thing that's going to 'fail eventually' is your archaic stance, which puts fetal life at the forefront, and cares little or nothing about that life once it's post-birth.
I don't know where you live, but in the US, first-trimester abortion is still legal nearly everywhere, despite the zealots who've done their best to intimidate providers away.
At any rate, your last paragraph shows that you're apparently trying to have it both ways. If it's a medical matter, as you state, it's a private matter between a woman and her physician, and none of your affair. It's clear you don't accept this, and want to politicize it by making it a matter of state-mandated law over the supposed child's 'legal rights'.
No, it is not only the rights of the mother that matter. I proved that by noting that abortion is illegal at some point under current law (and any likely future law). So the child, when people recognize it exists, does have rights. That is not the question. The question is when the child exists. I'm sorry if that's too far over your head.
|
|