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Post by phludowin on Aug 26, 2018 1:16:53 GMT
When a cockroach writes Shakespeare or finds a cure for cancer I'll take seriously your ludicrous opinion that a cockroach's life is equal to that of a human being. And when a fetus or newborn writes Shakespeare or find a cure for cancer, I might stop believing that anti-choicers are scum.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 26, 2018 1:23:06 GMT
That's a purely nonsensical answer. An infant cannot make that decision, and couldn't carry it out, even were it possible. And by the time the child came to the age of rational thought and able to do so, he'd be living in a society that sharply curtails the right to decide to end one's life (and you'd be outraged if we had a society that freely permitted self-euthanization, so don't be so dishonest as to proffer your 'choice' as any type of choice that you'd find acceptable under any circumstances). Yours is the sort of absurdist 'no-alternative' alternative to abortion that anti-choicers really think they can pass off as a considered answer. And as to the cockroach analogy: let's not be so hard upon the poor creature. Humans breed just as plentifully and irresponsibly as he; the only reason we don't equal him in number is the fact that we don't bear several hundred offspring at a time. For all we know of it, the roach may value individuated life as much as we claim to, in theory--but in actual practice, we can see plainly enough that in many cases that value is simply lip service, and not something that obtains all that frequently--if it did, we'd hardly have the rates of child abuse and child murder that we do (not to mention other horrors)--and that's only counting the stats to be found in Western 'affluent' nations; in poorer and overpopulated countries those figures are apt to be even higher. So again, lighten up on the cockroach. He doesn't devalue his young to such a degree that he'll kill or abuse it post-birth, sometimes just for kicks or sport, or through actual and deliberate neglect. No, I'm obviously not saying a fetus or an infant can decide. It's up to ethical adults to make the decision. The annual suicide rate in the U.S. is 13.42 per 100,000. That's 0.0001342% of the population. No one starts with the premise that it's very likely an infant will die by suicide. The number is comparatively infinitesimal. Sorry, your view is nonsense that the suicide option means each individual shouldn't be given a shot at life merely because a tiny number might stub their toe one day. I'm saying it's his life, the ethical choice is to let him live it, come what may. When a cockroach writes Shakespeare or finds a cure for cancer I'll take seriously your ludicrous opinion that a cockroach's life is equal to that of a human being. So you're going to enter them into a lottery of hazard and risk, because the non-existent consciousness was being tortured by deprivation, just like all other unconscious matter in the universe? The low suicide rate is explained by the fact that suicide is very strongly and forcefully proscribed (to the point of being de facto illegal), only around 1 attempt in 20 is successful; and not committing suicide is not a positive endorsement that they were benefitted by being brought into existence. I haven't committed suicide, or even attempted, in my 34 years, and I do not endorse my parents' actions in forcing me to live this life, and burdening me with all of these costs and risks, without my consent. Many people live their lives in abject misery and live broken lives of misfortune and pain, but do not commit suicide, because life forms as advanced as humans didn't manage to evolve to be this way without a hardwired aversion to death, even at the cost of severe suffering. Shakespeare and cures for cancer don't have any intrinsic value to the universe, nor do they have any value to species other than humans. The life of a cockroach has more value to other cockroaches than any human's life does.
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Post by phludowin on Aug 26, 2018 1:30:17 GMT
And when a fetus or newborn writes Shakespeare or find a cure for cancer, I might stop believing that anti-choicers are scum. First, I'm pro choice. That means I support the mother's right to abort Good. Infants can't do much of anything but the potential is there. Should we kill all infants in their cradles? The potential is also in the sperm and egg. Is every sperm sacred? And I don't suggest killing all infants in their cradles. This was your idea. And I consider it even less desirable than antinatalism.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 26, 2018 1:47:18 GMT
Good. The potential is also in the sperm and egg. Is every sperm sacred? And I don't suggest killing all infants in their cradles. This was your idea. And I consider it even less desirable than antinatalism. If you put a sperm in an incubator nothing will happen. But a fertilized egg will grow. See the difference? Mic suggested we might smother infants with a pillow. I'm addressing your 'side' in this discussion. I never suggested smothering infants with a pillow, or endorsed the idea of doing so. I stated that I wouldn't be opposed to peacefully euthanising infants shortly after birth, which would not involve anything so crude and unpleasant as holding a pillow over their face. You're lying about what I stated to try and defend nonsensical Catholic dogma.
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Post by The Herald Erjen on Aug 26, 2018 1:50:45 GMT
When a cockroach writes Shakespeare or finds a cure for cancer I'll take seriously your ludicrous opinion that a cockroach's life is equal to that of a human being. And when a fetus or newborn writes Shakespeare or find a cure for cancer, I might stop believing that anti-choicers are scum. How much chance does a fetus or a newborn have to write Shakespeare or find a cure for cancer after said fetus or newborn is killed?
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Post by amyghost on Aug 26, 2018 3:10:58 GMT
That's a purely nonsensical answer. An infant cannot make that decision, and couldn't carry it out, even were it possible. And by the time the child came to the age of rational thought and able to do so, he'd be living in a society that sharply curtails the right to decide to end one's life (and you'd be outraged if we had a society that freely permitted self-euthanization, so don't be so dishonest as to proffer your 'choice' as any type of choice that you'd find acceptable under any circumstances). Yours is the sort of absurdist 'no-alternative' alternative to abortion that anti-choicers really think they can pass off as a considered answer. And as to the cockroach analogy: let's not be so hard upon the poor creature. Humans breed just as plentifully and irresponsibly as he; the only reason we don't equal him in number is the fact that we don't bear several hundred offspring at a time. For all we know of it, the roach may value individuated life as much as we claim to, in theory--but in actual practice, we can see plainly enough that in many cases that value is simply lip service, and not something that obtains all that frequently--if it did, we'd hardly have the rates of child abuse and child murder that we do (not to mention other horrors)--and that's only counting the stats to be found in Western 'affluent' nations; in poorer and overpopulated countries those figures are apt to be even higher. So again, lighten up on the cockroach. He doesn't devalue his young to such a degree that he'll kill or abuse it post-birth, sometimes just for kicks or sport, or through actual and deliberate neglect. No, I'm obviously not saying a fetus or an infant can decide. It's up to ethical adults to make the decision. The annual suicide rate in the U.S. is 13.42 per 100,000. That's 0.0001342% of the population. No one starts with the premise that it's very likely an infant will die by suicide. The number is comparatively infinitesimal. Sorry, your view is nonsense that the suicide option means each individual shouldn't be given a shot at life merely because a tiny number might stub their toe one day. I'm saying it's his life, the ethical choice is to let him live it, come what may. When a cockroach writes Shakespeare or finds a cure for cancer I'll take seriously your ludicrous opinion that a cockroach's life is equal to that of a human being. And whose 'ethics' prevail here? The ones whom you agree with? One man's ethics is another man's immorality, and nothing is set in stone in matters such as these. Go back and re-read my post. All human beings don't 'write Shakespeare or find a cure for cancer'--in fact, almost none do. Are those human beings' lives worth less in your opinion because of that fact, than the infinitesimal few who do? If I wanted to stretch a point to its reductio ad absurdum, I could take your statement to mean just that, just as you were taking my observation upon the roach to an equally ridiculous extreme. My point was that, in terms of behavioral ethics toward their offspring, the cockroach might very well be found to operate on a higher plane than many a human parent would appear to.
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Post by amyghost on Aug 26, 2018 3:36:35 GMT
That is a false and even silly analogy Gamey. The infant has already been birthed due to a choice as well. It then becomes a sentinel human being, that is a part of what we refer to as the external world. Holding a lack of respect or contempt for any woman who chooses to abort her embryo\fetus before it is birthed, is also born out of blindsided and distorted judgement\condemnation. It then becomes about misguided and deluded dogma that is projecting one's own ethics and morals onto someone else's life, when it has absolutely nothing to do with our own personal journey. It would a difficult enough decision as it is to make for any female, let alone having self-righteous and negative moral indignations projected at them. The fetus is alive. Killing anything which is alive, even if it cannot live on its own carries ethical implications. Again, I'm not saying women should not have abortion rights. I'm just saying it is almost always an unethical decision based on selfishness. Even killing a dog for selfish reasons is unethical. It is not my self-righteous personal opinion that killing lives is wrong. Abort a fetus to save the mother's life, yes. Abort a fetus because the mother can't afford it or it might be a hardship, no. Excuse me, but your response begs the obvious question--how on earth do you know what most women who have abortions' decision is based upon? Are you personally acquainted with the major percentage of women around the world who have made the decision to have an abortion? If not, how are you of such certainty that 'almost always' the decision was based on 'unethical reasons' (and I might point out that you haven't really defined what those 'ethics' are, or how yours came to be the apparent gold standard for humanity) or out of 'selfishness' (which you haven't really defined, either--is it so selfish to put one's own actual life ahead of a putative, not yet extant life ? Would you do so?)
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Post by phludowin on Aug 26, 2018 10:17:02 GMT
Good. The potential is also in the sperm and egg. Is every sperm sacred? And I don't suggest killing all infants in their cradles. This was your idea. And I consider it even less desirable than antinatalism. If you put a sperm in an incubator nothing will happen. But a fertilized egg will grow. See the difference? In other words, the fertilized egg and sperm/egg will not grow to be an independently viable life form on their own. You have to artificially manipulate them. Putting an egg in an incubator is an artificial manipulation. So no, I do not see a significant ethical difference. Mic suggested we might smother infants with a pillow. I'm addressing your 'side' in this discussion. He didn't. But I'm not surprised that people opposed to abortion have to lie in order to make a point.
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Post by phludowin on Aug 26, 2018 10:24:49 GMT
The fetus is alive. Killing anything which is alive, even if it cannot live on its own carries ethical implications. Again, I'm not saying women should not have abortion rights. I'm just saying it is almost always an unethical decision based on selfishness. So far, you have failed to prove it. Even killing a dog for selfish reasons is unethical. A dog has more personality than a fetus. It is not my self-righteous personal opinion that killing lives is wrong. It is not your opinion that killing lives is wrong? Then why be against abortions? Abort a fetus to save the mother's life, yes. Abort a fetus because the mother can't afford it or it might be a hardship, no. Nope. The mother's motivations are her own business. And from a consequentialist point of view, they don't matter anyway.
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Post by amyghost on Aug 26, 2018 15:00:55 GMT
Does that relate to animals as well that humans kill to consume as food, or is there a selective conditioning placed on this as well?
It's not about black and white notions of what is right or wrong, good or bad, sad or happy etc. It just is Gamey. It doesn't matter what the reason is for a mother to abort her blob, her life comes first and foremost. When humans stop the 'lip service' regarding how caring they 'only' believe they are about other humans, and genuinely, effectively and 'authentically' come to the party and we have a massive shift of consciousness and awareness about all the 'current' living sentinels on the planet, then any condemnations projected towards a mother for aborting her fetus due to moral and ethical stances\beliefs DO NOT bear any relevance or weight whatsoever to my mind. Pro-choice is just what it is and there is nothing else attributed to it, other than respect for the choice another person makes about their OWN life. It is selfish for us to think that 'anybody' should act in any other way that we feel they should. There are no shoulds either.
Humans are omnivores and we must eat. No, killing animals for food is an overriding reason. Shooting your dog in the head because you can't afford to feed him anymore is unethical. There are other options. Killing a fetus because you can't afford it is unethical. There are other options. Tell that to the Indian subcontinent. Humans are today 'omnivores' by choice, not need. Consumption of animal flesh isn't required to sustain life. So there goes Overriding Reason Number One. Shooting your dog in the head because you can't afford to feed him may indeed be 'selfish' and unethical if other alternatives exist. In most cases, an individual who can't afford to pay to maintain a pet's life has the option of surrendering the pet to a facility which may be able to adopt it out to another, more able owner, or who may just as probably euthanize it once it's been in the facility beyond a certain span, as it's economically impossible for most shelters to keep all animals brought to it alive indefinitely. Presumably it's okay if someone else metaphorically 'shoots him in the head', as long as it isn't you (and as long as you don't have to think about it). And if you lived far away from any such facility and knew your dog was doomed to a slow and horrible death from starvation, then it might indeed appear to be the more 'ethical choice' for you to end his suffering quickly and as painlessly as possible, i.e. the bullet to the head. So much for Overriding Reason Number Two. Ethics can indeed be situational, as much as your more adamantine sorts might be opposed to that reality. That pretty much takes care of Overriding Reason Number Three, also known as the "Killing a fetus because you can't afford it is unethical. There are other options" argument. Theoretically, and in a perfect world, this might be so, though, because this is not a perfect world, and we dwell in actuality, not theory, you cannot really prove this. Many couples (including, I might add, some Catholics) choose to abort fetal life because they simply and in actuality cannot afford to extend an already over-extended familial economic burden. In many of these instances, they already subscribe to religious/philosophical systems that strongly disfavor or adamantly disallow the use of contraceptives as well, deeming any device or method intended to prevent the conjunction of sperm and egg as an abortofacient. What would you have them do? Abstain from sex altogether? Would you agree to that? And are you aware of the rates of adoption of nonwhite infants and/or infants with chronic disabilities and health problems? They're abysmal. So what 'other option' remains? Keeping children in state-run institutions until they reach the age of majority, just so abortion can be completely prevented? Are you willing to take on the tax burden this would ensue? Didn't think so. And are you really so deluded as to honestly believe that the private sector could or would care for each child brought into the world as a result of a prevented abortion, in such a manner as to give that child a proper and nurturing upbringing? Or don't you really care, as long as that part of the equation doesn't rest directly in your lap and you can go to bed each night peaceful in the knowledge that no fetus will ever be removed from a uterus before maturation ever, ever again? Which kind of leads us back to ORR #2 (Shooting The Dog In The Head): basically, it's okay as long as the 'problem' is handled in a manner that doesn't really require you to grimy your intellect by actually having to think about it.
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Post by captainbryce on Aug 26, 2018 19:57:48 GMT
If only people spent more time “caring” about what goes on in their own lives rather than trying to regulate what other people do in accordance with religious beliefs.
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Post by amyghost on Aug 27, 2018 13:06:05 GMT
If only people spent more time “caring” about what goes on in their own lives rather than trying to regulate what other people do in accordance with religious beliefs. Megatonnes of 'amen' to that. Supposedly, many cite their choice to follow religious belief as a way of improving their own lives and personal morality. I'd suppose this is true for a large enough number, but nowadays it certainly gives all appearance to the idea that the 'devout' are much more interested in attempting to regulate secular law and police others' personal moral systems than they are in getting their own houses in order. Maybe not surprising, in that their beliefs can often gull them into the notion that they're already spiritually well on the way to perfection, and it's the rest of the sinful world who needs ministering to much more than themselves. This is possibly the biggest, certainly one of the biggest, pitfalls of organized religions of any stripe. Assembling a crowd and telling them that the working of 'God's Will' in the world rests in their hands is never anything but a surefire invitation to too many to form some version of Inquisition. It's why organized religion holds no appeal for me, even though I was (fairly casually, I admit) raised in one. The temptations open to a soldier of the lord nearly always far outweigh any good he might do unto others, or his own soul, in being a member of that army.
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