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Post by dazz on Aug 22, 2018 0:04:51 GMT
That's correct. MCU "heroes" are selfish and constantly put people in danger. Iron Man did that. Bruce Banner did that. Starlord did that. Scarlet Witch did that. And even Steve Rogers did that. They constantly put their own selfish wishes ahead of the greater good and that results in putting many innocent people in danger. It really is despicable behavior. Yes. It was alright when they argued in the first Avengers because they were a new team. But every successive movie they get into internal fights because of selfishness which ends up costing lives and collateral damage. And Starks usually at the centre of it. Yet they never seem to learn. Not really in IW but in A1, AOU & CW yeah, but it's not just Tony it's Tony & Steve, and Steve is the worst of the 2, Tony is petty with Steve in Avengers, but clearly based on what is said and what is said in later films it's due to Tony's resentment/jealousy over what Steve meant to Howard, in Tony's mind atleast, but why does Steve have such a huge chip on his shoulder towards Tony? from the get go Cap doesn't respect or believe in Tony, and at every turn he is ready to doubt and side against Tony not matter how retarded the situation is, oh look the girl who whammied all of us and turned Bruce into Hulk in super rage mod mark 1000 and has sided with Ultron up till 30 seconds ago says Tony cant be trusted, it's got to be the truth, wait Tony you grounded Scarlett Witch after she accidentally blew up a flow of an office building at the Avengers HQ which is a massive state of the arts location with anything she should want including her sentient sex toy in case her being in public draws a nasty reaction? You fucking monster, I mean what the fuck is with Cap and literally jumping to the worst conclusions everytime?
I mean it's not like Tony's plan to put Jarvis into the new android body worked out well...oh wait Vision is the key to their victory, well it's not like Wanda is likely to react badly when confronted by something she dislikes...oh shit she's throwing cars at Tony causing millions of personal property damage to the cars and risking killing Tony by dropping one of his head, but I'm sure nothing bad comes from this...oh and now she's been arrested and is on the run for the next 2 years...well shit Cap seems like instinct wasn't something the super soldier serum seemed to enhance, tough breaks.
I do agree it is daft though these 2 keep fighting like this especially when it's meant to be years later and they are meant to be friends, doesn't mean they have to always agree on everything but shit Rhoady disagrees with Tony a lot, but you never get the feeling he doesn't like him, like Cap seems to.
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Post by dazz on Aug 22, 2018 0:10:50 GMT
Yes. It was alright when they argued in the first Avengers because they were a new team. But every successive movie they get into internal fights because of selfishness which ends up costing lives and collateral damage. And Starks usually at the centre of it. Yet they never seem to learn. It's a bit of a hyperbole to say they're all outright selfish just for having their own lives outside of being an Avenger, whether it's Wanda and Vision or Tony building shit for the sake of it. I could easily say that Superman is selfish and only cares about Lois and will put her life above everyone else, but I know that's not true even though that's what's portrayed on screen. But you guys are also complaining about character flaws. Every character should have flaws. They'd be boring if they were perfect Yeah but it's fun to do so, go on rip Superman a new one, i'll be happy to defend him as it atleast allows for different perspectives to be brought up about the character, far more interesting than just going yeah he's cool he does shit that's cool, cool.
You are right character flaws are what make them fun, Batman being a shit is one of the things I find most interesting about the character.
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Post by Vassaggo on Aug 22, 2018 2:23:10 GMT
Dont forget the ending of IM3 where he "retires" and tells Jarvis to blow up all his suits yet hes back immediately fighting in ultron with no explaanation. Or the new extremiss powers that Pepper gained which were dropped and only served as a deus ex machina moment for the finale against Aldrich Killian (including another fake out death amongst the messy CGI). But the MCU is so innovative I think they're trying to retcon Iron Man 3 because of how badly it screwed things up. Tony even got the Arc Reactor back in his chest in Infinity War. Not an arc reactor he says it's place to hold the nanites.
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Post by DC-Fan on Aug 22, 2018 3:05:09 GMT
That's correct. MCU "heroes" are selfish and constantly put people in danger. Iron Man did that. Bruce Banner did that. Starlord did that. Scarlet Witch did that. And even Steve Rogers did that. They constantly put their own selfish wishes ahead of the greater good and that results in putting many innocent people in danger. It really is despicable behavior. Well, perhaps this is getting outside the realm of the cinematic universes, but isn't the conflict between selfish wishes and the greater good a recurring theme of Batman? Easily the most often asked and explored question of Batman is why he doesn't just kill the Joker. It would be in the interest of the greater good if he killed him because the Joker keeps escaping and causes countless deaths each time he does. It's been chalked up to Batman's moral code or occasionally what I like to call the "once you pop, you can't stop" dilemma where Batman claims if he crossed the line and killed somebody, he would fall to darkness and become a serial murderer. The problem is that both of these explanations are selfish; the former because he puts his own values over the lives of others and the latter because he's more concerned with what he might become than with the lives of others. Each time he lets the Joker live, he's putting people in danger... and not out of altruism but ultimately for his own sake. Batman doesn't kill the Joker because he doesn't believe in appointing himself judge and jury like Steve Rogers likes to do.
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Post by DC-Fan on Aug 22, 2018 3:19:59 GMT
Yes. It was alright when they argued in the first Avengers because they were a new team. But every successive movie they get into internal fights because of selfishness which ends up costing lives and collateral damage. And Starks usually at the centre of it. Yet they never seem to learn. I could easily say that Superman is selfish and only cares about Lois and will put her life above everyone else, but I know that's not true even though that's what's portrayed on screen. It's been awhile since I watched Superman: The Movie. But wasn't Lois crushed in her car during the earthquake because Lex released 2 missiles and Superman went after the other missile first instead of the missile that was closest to Lois' location? Looks like you're just making up bullshit again!
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Post by DC-Fan on Aug 22, 2018 3:26:05 GMT
Yes. It was alright when they argued in the first Avengers because they were a new team. But every successive movie they get into internal fights because of selfishness which ends up costing lives and collateral damage. And Starks usually at the centre of it. Yet they never seem to learn. I do agree it is daft though these 2 keep fighting like this especially when it's meant to be years later and they are meant to be friends, doesn't mean they have to always agree on everything but shit Rhoady disagrees with Tony a lot, but you never get the feeling he doesn't like him, like Cap seems to.
It's ego. Both are egotistical alpha males who want to be in charge of the Avengers.
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Post by charzhino on Aug 22, 2018 9:07:48 GMT
Yes. It was alright when they argued in the first Avengers because they were a new team. But every successive movie they get into internal fights because of selfishness which ends up costing lives and collateral damage. And Starks usually at the centre of it. Yet they never seem to learn. It's a bit of a hyperbole to say they're all outright selfish just for having their own lives outside of being an Avenger, whether it's Wanda and Vision or Tony building shit for the sake of it. I could easily say that Superman is selfish and only cares about Lois and will put her life above everyone else, but I know that's not true even though that's what's portrayed on screen. But you guys are also complaining about character flaws. Every character should have flaws. They'd be boring if they were perfect But they should learn from those flaws, and the biggest culprit is Stark who in the movies is shown to be unable to keep his word and learn from past mistakes.
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Post by charzhino on Aug 22, 2018 9:42:30 GMT
Tony's Ultron doesn't fail it is Vision, that is what he intended to create, Ultron was created by the mind stone imbuing a fractured and incomplete AI program with sentience it shouldn't have had, that's not a mistake Tony makes in the program, what he intended was an AI like Jarvis just more advanced which is what Vision literally is, but Tony didn't realise the staff or stone as it were could transcend the AI's programming until it did so to Ultron, he was trying to create a man made equivalent to the AI he could gleam from the stone, but what he had made up till that point even he recognised as being far from ready. Yes, Stark was creating a more competent A.I to merge with iron legion to protect the world. But Dr Banner had hesitance about it wheras Stark wanted to dive in without any careful planning or strategy to counteract if any problems arose as they only had the sceptor for a few days so time was limited. And he ignored a town hall style meeting to discuss the idea with other avengers. And THAT was his mistake. Starks character has been shown to be impatient and often dive into things at a whim, like in Ironman 1 when hes taking first flight of his suit, he doesn't care about diagnostic checks and flies before he can walk. No problem with that because if his suit fails, it will be him who becomes injured, no real risk to anyone else. But in Ironman 3 without consideration, he unwittingly declares his home address on national TV so the terrorists can track him down and blow up his house endangering Pepper and Natalie. In Ultron once again he rushes into a world security network program without consulting ANYONE except Banner (who is not thrilled on the idea). And we all know how that ends, regardless of his good intentions. Time and time again he hasn't learned from his mistakes and his impulsiveness to take action at the bereft of fatal consequences has made him a liability.
This is why I compared his character to Bruce from Dark Knight RIses. He has a fully capable Nuclear generator to produce clean energy, but he isn't a rash and impulsive psychopath like Stark. Wayne considers the pros and cons very carefully of possessing a nuclear device that could theoretically be modified into a weapon of mass destruction, and keeps it at bay/hidden even though a breakthrough in nuclear fuel would make him even richer and more world renown. I bet if the roles were reversed, Stark would have the clean energy nuclear device up and running without much thought.
Iron legion is in IM3, its the army/legion of robots he has that are all A.I controlled. He calls them in during his final fight with Killian, but they cant defeat Killian so the program failed. Stark gets lucky because its Pepper who is infected with Extremis that lands the decisive blow to killian. A separate debate. [/quote] He is able to become Batman because he doesn't have many personal ties. He only has Alfred and Rachel who died. He knows most others will have a wife, family, kids like Gordon so doesn't want to dump his task of being Batman to them. And its not ego. Ironman is a world wide celebrity who everyone knows is Tony Stark. Batman is hidden in a mask. No one knows who he is so Bruce Wayne doesn't get the credit or praise or adulation that Stark does. He's a silent guardian. Stark is a pompous maniac who thrives on publicity and fame. You can love someone yet still feel the need to leave. Bruce was so disgusted with Gothams crime scene and needed to find a way outside of traditional law to defeat the criminal underworld. Its a subject he feels strongly and passionately about. So him going into exile doesn't mean ''its obvious he doesn't love Rachel''. That's absurd to say. And him hooking up with a pretty woman in Dark Knight Rises is not surprising. Hes been a recluse with no female companionship for 7 years. Do you think he lost his appetite for women? Wrong. He gives up at the end of Dark Knight because he wants to uphold Dents image to the public as a white knight as he cares for Gotham. And this contradicts your earlier statement that says Batman has an ego and enjoys punishing criminals. If this was true he wouldn't give up being batman.
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Post by charzhino on Aug 22, 2018 9:56:46 GMT
MCU "heroes" are selfish and constantly put people in danger. Its hard to argue against that to be honest.
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Post by charzhino on Aug 22, 2018 10:00:15 GMT
Each time he lets the Joker live, he's putting people in danger... and not out of altruism but ultimately for his own sake. Not entirely true but the moral dilemma that it creates is a good medium to discuss the social implications of the death penalty not just for 1 person, the executor. Another argument is that the death penalty is just vengeance which is irrational because it doesn't bring peace. Its argued well in Batman Begins with Raas Al ghul and im on the fence about which solution is right.
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kanekikun
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Post by kanekikun on Aug 22, 2018 11:42:43 GMT
It's a bit of a hyperbole to say they're all outright selfish just for having their own lives outside of being an Avenger, whether it's Wanda and Vision or Tony building shit for the sake of it. I could easily say that Superman is selfish and only cares about Lois and will put her life above everyone else, but I know that's not true even though that's what's portrayed on screen. But you guys are also complaining about character flaws. Every character should have flaws. They'd be boring if they were perfect But they should learn from those flaws, and the biggest culprit is Stark who in the movies is shown to be unable to keep his word and learn from past mistakes. but xavier never learns from his big mistakes, like believing in segregation. him giving up to preserve dents image was silly too becase he dint have to do that either.
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kanekikun
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Post by kanekikun on Aug 22, 2018 11:47:23 GMT
I could easily say that Superman is selfish and only cares about Lois and will put her life above everyone else, but I know that's not true even though that's what's portrayed on screen. It's been awhile since I watched Superman: The Movie. But wasn't Lois crushed in her car during the earthquake because Lex released 2 missiles and Superman went after the other missile first instead of the missile that was closest to Lois' location? Looks like you're just making up bullshit again! he uses time traval to save lois but no one else even his dad. thats selfish.
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Post by Vassaggo on Aug 22, 2018 11:51:39 GMT
Iron legion is in IM3, its the army/legion of robots he has that are all A.I controlled. He calls them in during his final fight with Killian, but they cant defeat Killian so the program failed. Stark gets lucky because its Pepper who is infected with Extremis that lands the decisive blow to killian. I don't know if this is exactly accurate. The Suits I guess could be called Iron Legion 0.0 and the ones in Age of Ultron is Iron Legion 1.0. The House Party Protocol was JARVIS controlling all the suits Tony had manically made during his PTSD. Where as the Iron Legion looked to be individual robots that some of their own very basic AI without JARVIS controlling each individually. It's kind of splitting hairs, but there is a slight difference between the two.
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Post by seahawksraawk00 on Aug 22, 2018 11:55:27 GMT
I could easily say that Superman is selfish and only cares about Lois and will put her life above everyone else, but I know that's not true even though that's what's portrayed on screen. It's been awhile since I watched Superman: The Movie. But wasn't Lois crushed in her car during the earthquake because Lex released 2 missiles and Superman went after the other missile first instead of the missile that was closest to Lois' location? Looks like you're just making up bullshit again! I'm taking about the current Superman we have
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Post by charzhino on Aug 22, 2018 12:12:43 GMT
but xavier never learns from his big mistakes, like believing in segregation. him giving up to preserve dents image was silly too becase he dint have to do that either. Xavier doesnt believe in segregation. He wants mutants and humans to mix. Batman going rogue was the best explanation at the time to explain Dents actions to the public.
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kanekikun
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Post by kanekikun on Aug 22, 2018 12:20:20 GMT
but xavier never learns from his big mistakes, like believing in segregation. him giving up to preserve dents image was silly too becase he dint have to do that either. Xavier doesnt believe in segregation. He wants mutants and humans to mix. Batman going rogue was the best explanation at the time to explain Dents actions to the public. yea he does. thats why he takes kids from their families, lies t oparents to get them and hardly does anything proactive with the government. he seperetes with the school.
no they could just cover it all up. with how tey made dent out, the peopel wouldnt beleuev he was a murderer. its why banes thing in rises was silly too. they could just say he lied about dent or forged the letter.
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Post by charzhino on Aug 22, 2018 12:31:13 GMT
yea he does. thats why he takes kids from their families, lies t oparents to get them and hardly does anything proactive with the government. he seperetes with the school. no they could just cover it all up. with how tey made dent out, the peopel wouldnt beleuev he was a murderer. its why banes thing in rises was silly too. they could just say he lied about dent or forged the letter.
A quote from the films he says is that most of the students are runaways. He didnt force anyone. He may go to some students houses like Jeans but that's for special purposes as she possesed great power. People would believe Dent was a murderer because the forensic evidence would link him to the kills. And eye witness testimony. Batman taking the blame was the best explanation; why else would he take out an entire SWAT team. Banes letter was convenient but it didnt really matter. The citizens of Gotham were powerless at that point anyway. And quit writing like you developed dyslexia overnight
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kanekikun
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Post by kanekikun on Aug 22, 2018 12:41:47 GMT
yea he does. thats why he takes kids from their families, lies t oparents to get them and hardly does anything proactive with the government. he seperetes with the school. no they could just cover it all up. with how tey made dent out, the peopel wouldnt beleuev he was a murderer. its why banes thing in rises was silly too. they could just say he lied about dent or forged the letter.
A quote from the films he says is that most of the students are runaways. He didnt force anyone. He may go to some students houses like Jeans but that's for special purposes as she possesed great power. People would believe Dent was a murderer because the forensic evidence would link him to the kills. And eye witness testimony. Batman taking the blame was the best explanation; why else would he take out an entire SWAT team. Banes letter was convenient but it didnt really matter. The citizens of Gotham were powerless at that point anyway. And quit writing like you developed dyslexia overnight bobbys parents say other. he lied to them. and the only time he says he wants to mix with human was in apocalypse, way too late.
easy just have gordon cover it all up and if it gest out say dsent was brain damaged (which he was) and went nuts. peopel would still remeber hes a hero. the ting with bane was extra silly.
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Post by coldenhaulfield on Aug 22, 2018 15:13:53 GMT
A quote from the films he says is that most of the students are runaways. He didnt force anyone. He may go to some students houses like Jeans but that's for special purposes as she possesed great power. People would believe Dent was a murderer because the forensic evidence would link him to the kills. And eye witness testimony. Batman taking the blame was the best explanation; why else would he take out an entire SWAT team. Banes letter was convenient but it didnt really matter. The citizens of Gotham were powerless at that point anyway. And quit writing like you developed dyslexia overnight bobbys parents say other. he lied to them. and the only time he says he wants to mix with human was in apocalypse, way too late.
easy just have gordon cover it all up and if it gest out say dsent was brain damaged (which he was) and went nuts. peopel would still remeber hes a hero. the ting with bane was extra silly.
For real: why do you think it's not fucked-up that you post here under a sock despite being twice-banned while you're at work? That's... about as pathetic as it gets.
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Post by coldenhaulfield on Aug 22, 2018 15:14:20 GMT
yea he does. thats why he takes kids from their families, lies t oparents to get them and hardly does anything proactive with the government. he seperetes with the school. no they could just cover it all up. with how tey made dent out, the peopel wouldnt beleuev he was a murderer. its why banes thing in rises was silly too. they could just say he lied about dent or forged the letter.
A quote from the films he says is that most of the students are runaways. He didnt force anyone. He may go to some students houses like Jeans but that's for special purposes as she possesed great power. People would believe Dent was a murderer because the forensic evidence would link him to the kills. And eye witness testimony. Batman taking the blame was the best explanation; why else would he take out an entire SWAT team. Banes letter was convenient but it didnt really matter. The citizens of Gotham were powerless at that point anyway. And quit writing like you developed dyslexia overnight (You know it's just the doxxer formersamhmd, right?)
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