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Post by Aj_June on Aug 23, 2018 14:33:04 GMT
I remember during my days of being a Islam hater I would refuse to believe that a period of time existed in human history when Islamic society in a significant part of world was relatively more developed and there was cultural flourishing of science, mathematics and arts. I refused to believe that there were many Muslims who advocated the goal of pursuit of knowledge as something important. I think my thought process was like this, Islam has been an invading force world over so please end this barbaric ruthless religion as soon as possible. It's a cancer and it needs to go. Over the years I realised not only was I wrong, unthoughtful and biased in denying their achievements during Islamic golden age but my belief that Islam could be finished off in anyway was itself impractical and absurd. Probably one reason I could have developed the bias was that Islamic golden age happened around middle east and I was more thinking about India, where Muslims were largely destroying libraries and putting infidels to sword. But even if they did that in India, they had a relatively good time in middle east and developed centres such as Baghdad which was a seat of learning for a significant time.
That said it is true that Islamic world today is in grips of fanatics and extremists. Because countries such as Saudia or Iran by force of law make you unable to change your religion from Islam to anything else (including atheism) it is extremely difficult to lessen the grip of extremists. Western countries have made the situation even bad by continuously indulging in sickening interventions that ultimately not just cause many people to die but further make the situation even bad by handing the control to people who either can't contain extremists or are religious fanatics themselves. But still there is a hope. If a religion can see one golden age then why not see another age where its adherents are at least on par with people of other faiths in terms of open mindedness, culture and freedom? That can happen though I am not sure how soon.
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Post by thefleetsin on Aug 23, 2018 14:56:42 GMT
i understand your point.
still, the very nature of 'enlightened-touched-by-spirits-thinking' evokes a privileged mindset. which, apparently, elevates the user into realms of i know what's best for not only me but for you as well.
there is so much competition; especially among religions, to usurp the human heart and mind, i'm surprised they find the time and resources to erect so many view blocking buildings.
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Post by phludowin on Aug 23, 2018 14:58:02 GMT
Good post.
In Europe it was Spain that benefitted from the Islamic Golden Age; but only in early medieval times.
Regions where Christianity dominated, like central Europe, benefitted from the Enlightenment. That's what would be needed in Islamic countries today.
Problem: Whenever some reformation movement pops up, like in Tunisia, it's often crushed down by fundamentalists. The West treating many Islamic countries like economic colonies for cheap oil and other stuff is probably not helping either.
I'd say: We need to stop importing resources from fundamentalist countries. Let them restructure their economy. Then social changes can and will take place.
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Post by Aj_June on Aug 23, 2018 15:09:55 GMT
I'd say: We need to stop importing resources from fundamentalist countries. Let them restructure their economy. Then social changes can and will take place. I have often said something similar. I think non-extremist and secular countries should at least reconsider their foreign and economic policies regarding key countries such as Saudia and Iran. At this point of time I believe world is not doing much to make countries like Saudia believe that what they are doing to large parts of Islamic world cannot be considered good. I think providing greater rights to women may be the thing that can cause beginning of the enlightenment that you talk about. |
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Post by politicidal on Aug 23, 2018 16:13:00 GMT
Persistence from those that care. |
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Post by general313 on Aug 23, 2018 17:03:11 GMT
Good post. In Europe it was Spain that benefitted from the Islamic Golden Age; but only in early medieval times. Regions where Christianity dominated, like central Europe, benefitted from the Enlightenment. That's what would be needed in Islamic countries today. Problem: Whenever some reformation movement pops up, like in Tunisia, it's often crushed down by fundamentalists. The West treating many Islamic countries like economic colonies for cheap oil and other stuff is probably not helping either. I'd say: We need to stop importing resources from fundamentalist countries. Let them restructure their economy. Then social changes can and will take place. Speaking of Spain, it seems that on the whole the Jews of Spain were better off under the Moors. I often wonder how Middle East/western relations might be if the crusades never happened. |
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Post by Cody™ on Aug 23, 2018 17:27:24 GMT
Aj_June Are you saying you no longer have a problem with the founder marrying and sleeping with a prepubescent girl? A religion that penalises apostates with the death penalty. Endorses terrorism, female genital mutilation, amputation and crucifixion for law breakers and uses extortion against non-Muslims for their own protection? Instructs husbands to beat disobedient wives and calls non-Muslims the worst of creatures? A religion that was largely spread via the sword through rape and pillaging and forced conversions?
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Post by Deleted on Aug 23, 2018 17:31:59 GMT
Aj_JuneAre you saying you no longer have a problem with the founder marrying and sleeping with a prepubescent girl? A religion that penalises apostates with the death penalty. Endorses terrorism, female genital mutilation, amputation and crucifixion for law breakers and uses extortion against non-Muslims for their own protection? And you don't have a problem with worshipping a genocidal god who orders his followers to murder their own children to prove they believe in him? Do you condemn religious male genital mutilation and Jews, or are you just a racist ragging on Muslims? |
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Post by Aj_June on Aug 24, 2018 1:15:37 GMT
Good post. In Europe it was Spain that benefitted from the Islamic Golden Age; but only in early medieval times. Regions where Christianity dominated, like central Europe, benefitted from the Enlightenment. That's what would be needed in Islamic countries today. Problem: Whenever some reformation movement pops up, like in Tunisia, it's often crushed down by fundamentalists. The West treating many Islamic countries like economic colonies for cheap oil and other stuff is probably not helping either. I'd say: We need to stop importing resources from fundamentalist countries. Let them restructure their economy. Then social changes can and will take place. Speaking of Spain, it seems that on the whole the Jews of Spain were better off under the Moors. I often wonder how Middle East/western relations might be if the crusades never happened. It is very clear that anti-Semitism was far more bigger problem in Christian societies than Muslim societies in the medieval era. Take Richard the Lionheart for example:
Richard I was officially invested as Duke of Normandy on 20 July 1189 and crowned king in Westminster Abbey on 3 September 1189.[53] Richard barred all Jews and women from the investiture, but some Jewish leaders arrived to present gifts for the new king.[54] According to Ralph of Diceto, Richard's courtiers stripped and flogged the Jews, then flung them out of court.[55]
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Post by FilmFlaneur on Aug 24, 2018 8:22:30 GMT
One of the things Islam conspicuously needs is a critical edition of the Qu'ran (a project which was once I believe supposedly in progress).
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Post by Aj_June on Aug 24, 2018 8:54:36 GMT
One of the things Islam conspicuously needs is a critical edition of the Qu'ran (a project which was once I believe supposedly in progress). That could help a lot. The problem is that the existing extremists and people who have vested interest may interfere a lot if moderate Muslims propose such a thing. |
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Post by FilmFlaneur on Aug 24, 2018 9:10:20 GMT
One of the things Islam conspicuously needs is a critical edition of the Qu'ran (a project which was once I believe supposedly in progress). That could help a lot. The problem is that the existing extremists and people who have vested interest may interfere a lot if moderate Muslims propose such a thing. I think that has been the principal worry, along with the conservative nature of many of the scholarly institutions in the middle east and Asia who might have been expected to attempt such a project years ago. There is also the vexed issue of the many scattered documents that would have to be compared and analysed to prepare a standard text. |
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Post by lowtacks86 on Aug 24, 2018 16:51:06 GMT
Aj_June Are you saying you no longer have a problem with the founder marrying and sleeping with a prepubescent girl? A religion that penalises apostates with the death penalty. Endorses terrorism, female genital mutilation, amputation and crucifixion for law breakers and uses extortion against non-Muslims for their own protection? Instructs husbands to beat disobedient wives and calls non-Muslims the worst of creatures? A religion that was largely spread via the sword through rape and pillaging and forced conversions?
"A religion that was largely spread via the sword through rape and pillaging and forced conversions?"
I don't care much for Islam myself (the Middle East would probably be better off without it), but you do realize that could just as easily apply to Christianity, right? Many black Americans today are only Christian because their "masas" basically whipped them into worshipping Jesus. Many Latinos are Catholic largely because of Spaniards marrying/raping the natives and essentially forcing Catholicism in Latin America.
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Post by Cody™ on Aug 24, 2018 17:41:14 GMT
Aj_June Are you saying you no longer have a problem with the founder marrying and sleeping with a prepubescent girl? A religion that penalises apostates with the death penalty. Endorses terrorism, female genital mutilation, amputation and crucifixion for law breakers and uses extortion against non-Muslims for their own protection? Instructs husbands to beat disobedient wives and calls non-Muslims the worst of creatures? A religion that was largely spread via the sword through rape and pillaging and forced conversions?
"A religion that was largely spread via the sword through rape and pillaging and forced conversions?"
I don't care much for Islam myself (the Middle East would probably be better off without it), but you do realize that could just as easily apply to Christianity, right? Many black Americans today are only Christian because their "masas" basically whipped them into worshipping Jesus. Many Latinos are Catholic largely because of Spaniards marrying/raping the natives and essentially forcing Catholicism in Latin America.
Heres the difference. Christianity doesn’t teach forced conversions. Islam does. 👇 ”Fight those who do not believe in Allah or in the Last Day and who do not consider unlawful what Allah and His Messenger have made unlawful and who do not adopt the religion of truth from those who were given the Scripture - [fight] until they give the jizyah willingly while they are humbled.”Quran 9:29This verse is said to be the last revelation Muhammad received abrogating all the previous peaceful ones. So while American and Spanish slave owners were not complying with the teachings of the bible. Islamic invaders were being good obedient little Muslim jihadis. Once again your little tu quoque attempt only serves to highlight the integrity and holiness of the bible. |
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Post by lowtacks86 on Aug 24, 2018 17:46:54 GMT
"A religion that was largely spread via the sword through rape and pillaging and forced conversions?"
I don't care much for Islam myself (the Middle East would probably be better off without it), but you do realize that could just as easily apply to Christianity, right? Many black Americans today are only Christian because their "masas" basically whipped them into worshipping Jesus. Many Latinos are Catholic largely because of Spaniards marrying/raping the natives and essentially forcing Catholicism in Latin America.
Heres the difference. Christianity doesn’t teach forced conversions. Islam does. 👇 ”Fight those who do not believe in Allah or in the Last Day and who do not consider unlawful what Allah and His Messenger have made unlawful and who do not adopt the religion of truth from those who were given the Scripture - [fight] until they give the jizyah willingly while they are humbled.”Quran 9:29This verse is said to be the last revelation Muhammad received abrogating all the previous peaceful ones. So while American and Spanish slave owners were not complying with the teachings of the bible. Islamic invaders were being good obedient little Muslim jihadis. Once again your little tu quoque only serves to highlight the integrity and holiness of the bible. "Christianity doesn’t teach forced conversions."
Doesn't matter, that's not what you initially said.
"So while American and Spanish slave owners were not complying with the teachings of the bible"
How so?
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