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Post by captainbryce on Aug 29, 2018 1:03:35 GMT
Yes. And apparently he also thinks it’s okay for some of them to own and beat others. How lovely indeed! In Philemon, God - through St. Paul - asks Philemon to take back an escaped slave, as a friend in Christ. So what?  |
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Post by clusium on Aug 29, 2018 3:39:21 GMT
In Philemon, God - through St. Paul - asks Philemon to take back an escaped slave, as a friend in Christ. So what? Shows that overall, God Disproves of slavery. |
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Post by clusium on Aug 29, 2018 3:49:16 GMT
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Post by rizdek on Aug 29, 2018 8:43:01 GMT
So what? Shows that overall, God Disproves of slavery. It would seem to prove the opposite if God, through Paul, asked someone to take a slave, "friend in Christ" or not, back to his owner. At least I can't see how it shows god disapproves of slavery. |
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Post by Arlon10 on Aug 29, 2018 10:57:18 GMT
In modern times there appears no good in slavery, at least not to most people. Some people prefer having no blame for anything and to be told everything to do, either by some master as did happen sometimes in the South when slavery was legal, or being told everything to do by the state, as many people today who resist accepting personal responsibility for anything. They set the state against anyone with "deep pockets."
In Bible times there was no huge job market in many places and people preferred slavery for that reason. It wasn't so much that you had to whatever your master said, you didn't exactly, as it was because there was nowhere else to turn.
I've noticed people on this board like things being either all bad or all good. That isn't realistic. Of course slavery is a terrible idea now and in the past. There were people who thought it was best on all sides though. One of the most cruel things in the Bible about slavery was what to do with a person who didn't want to go free.
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Post by captainbryce on Aug 29, 2018 11:37:38 GMT
So what? Shows that overall, God Disproves of slavery. No, Philemon does no such thing! It shows a desperate man’s plea to another man to release a specific slave. Not only is it NOT a command from God, but even if it were, it would only show that God disapproved of holding Onesimus as a slave; not slavery in general. In fact we know that God approves of slavery based on all the verses I provided earlier in Exodus and Leviticus where God allows it. We also know God approves of slavery because the slavery mentioned in the Old Testament is defended on the New Testament. Ephesians 6:5-9 Slaves, obey your earthly masters with respect and fear, and with sincerity of heart, just as you would obey Christ. Obey them not only to win their favor when their eye is on you, but as slaves of Christ, doing the will of God from your heart. Serve wholeheartedly, as if you were serving the Lord, not people, because you know that the Lord will reward each one for whatever good they do, whether they are slave or free. And masters, treat your slaves in the same way. Do not threaten them, since you know that he who is both their Master and yours is in heaven, and there is no favoritism with him. Not once does the bible ever rebuke slavery! Not once does God, or Jesus, or any apostle condemn someone for owning slaves. Rather, they instruct them on how to administer their slavery. That means God approves of it! |
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Post by Arlon10 on Aug 29, 2018 11:45:25 GMT
Shows that overall, God Disproves of slavery. No, Philemon does no such thing! It shows a desperate man’s plea to another man to release a specific slave. Not only is it NOT a command from God, but even if it were, it would only show that God disapproved of holding Onesimus as a slave; not slavery in general. In fact we know that God approves of slavery based on all the verses I provided earlier in Exodus and Leviticus where God allows it. We also know God approves of slavery because the slavery mentioned in the Old Testament is defended on the New Testament. Ephesians 6:5-9 Slaves, obey your earthly masters with respect and fear, and with sincerity of heart, just as you would obey Christ. Obey them not only to win their favor when their eye is on you, but as slaves of Christ, doing the will of God from your heart. Serve wholeheartedly, as if you were serving the Lord, not people, because you know that the Lord will reward each one for whatever good they do, whether they are slave or free. And masters, treat your slaves in the same way. Do not threaten them, since you know that he who is both their Master and yours is in heaven, and there is no favoritism with him. Not once does the bible ever rebuke slavery! Not once does God, or Jesus, or any apostle condemn someone for owning slaves. Rather, they instruct them on how to administer their slavery. That means God approves of it! Ephesians |
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Post by amyghost on Aug 29, 2018 11:56:05 GMT
Yes. And apparently he also thinks it’s okay for some of them to own and beat others. How lovely indeed! In Philemon, God - through St. Paul - asks Philemon to take back an escaped slave, as a friend in Christ. Ah, well...as long as one is a 'friend in Christ' anything goes, it would seem  . |
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Post by amyghost on Aug 29, 2018 12:04:30 GMT
In modern times there appears no good in slavery, at least not to most people. Some people prefer having no blame for anything and to be told everything to do, either by some master as did happen sometimes in the South when slavery was legal, or being told everything to do by the state, as many people today who resist accepting personal responsibility for anything. They set the state against anyone with "deep pockets." In Bible times there was no huge job market in many places and people preferred slavery for that reason. It wasn't so much that you had to whatever your master said, you didn't exactly, as it was because there was nowhere else to turn. I've noticed people on this board like things being either all bad or all good. That isn't realistic. Of course slavery is a terrible idea now and in the past. There were people who thought it was best on all sides though. One of the most cruel things in the Bible about slavery was what to do with a person who didn't want to go free. There may be a degree of truth in this, though it still doesn't explain away how a supposedly just, merciful and loving god seemingly had no manner of qualms whatsoever about slaves (or 'indentured servants', if you prefer) being beaten--sometimes to within an inch of their lives, and worrying only about the consequences of it in terms of chattel property. Things are usually not all black or white, but one can certainly assert that this state of affairs hews more to the black end of the spectrum than otherwise by anyone's morality, except perhaps a Caligula's. Somehow, I find that a bit more 'cruel' than the question of the slave who supposedly rejects his freedom. And of course, we could simply ask, in his case--why didn't god provide for him, so that he might have both his freedom and a livelihood? |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 29, 2018 19:22:07 GMT
The thing is that the bible can be used to support slavery by those who wanted to keep slavery and it can be used by those who wanted to abolish slavery.
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Post by captainbryce on Aug 29, 2018 21:06:22 GMT
The thing is that the bible can be used to support slavery by those who wanted to keep slavery and it can be used by those who wanted to abolish slavery. Which kind of makes it completely useless and unreliable as a moral teaching authority, doesn’t it? |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 29, 2018 21:23:50 GMT
The thing is that the bible can be used to support slavery by those who wanted to keep slavery and it can be used by those who wanted to abolish slavery. Which kind of makes it completely useless and unreliable as a moral teaching authority, doesn’t it? Yes that was kind of my point. |
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Post by Arlon10 on Aug 29, 2018 21:31:17 GMT
In modern times there appears no good in slavery, at least not to most people. Some people prefer having no blame for anything and to be told everything to do, either by some master as did happen sometimes in the South when slavery was legal, or being told everything to do by the state, as many people today who resist accepting personal responsibility for anything. They set the state against anyone with "deep pockets." In Bible times there was no huge job market in many places and people preferred slavery for that reason. It wasn't so much that you had to whatever your master said, you didn't exactly, as it was because there was nowhere else to turn. I've noticed people on this board like things being either all bad or all good. That isn't realistic. Of course slavery is a terrible idea now and in the past. There were people who thought it was best on all sides though. One of the most cruel things in the Bible about slavery was what to do with a person who didn't want to go free. There may be a degree of truth in this, though it still doesn't explain away how a supposedly just, merciful and loving god seemingly had no manner of qualms whatsoever about slaves (or 'indentured servants', if you prefer) being beaten--sometimes to within an inch of their lives, and worrying only about the consequences of it in terms of chattel property. Things are usually not all black or white, but one can certainly assert that this state of affairs hews more to the black end of the spectrum than otherwise by anyone's morality, except perhaps a Caligula's. Somehow, I find that a bit more 'cruel' than the question of the slave who supposedly rejects his freedom. And of course, we could simply ask, in his case--why didn't god provide for him, so that he might have both his freedom and a livelihood? I generally pay little attention to what goofy kids on the internet think a "just, merciful and loving" god should do. I'm not expecting a Garden of Eden. I can however see that slavery has been particularly egregious in neglecting rights of innocent people in many cases. I doubt many slave owners had to use the method in the Bible for dealing with slaves who do not want freedom. Just mentioning it might prompt the slave to say, "It looks as though I might find a job out there after all." |
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Post by Arlon10 on Aug 29, 2018 21:32:52 GMT
The thing is that the bible can be used to support slavery by those who wanted to keep slavery and it can be used by those who wanted to abolish slavery. Which kind of makes it completely useless and unreliable as a moral teaching authority, doesn’t it? How "useful" something is often depends much on the person using it. |
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Post by amyghost on Aug 29, 2018 21:37:55 GMT
There may be a degree of truth in this, though it still doesn't explain away how a supposedly just, merciful and loving god seemingly had no manner of qualms whatsoever about slaves (or 'indentured servants', if you prefer) being beaten--sometimes to within an inch of their lives, and worrying only about the consequences of it in terms of chattel property. Things are usually not all black or white, but one can certainly assert that this state of affairs hews more to the black end of the spectrum than otherwise by anyone's morality, except perhaps a Caligula's. Somehow, I find that a bit more 'cruel' than the question of the slave who supposedly rejects his freedom. And of course, we could simply ask, in his case--why didn't god provide for him, so that he might have both his freedom and a livelihood? . I'm not expecting a Garden of Eden. I can however see that slavery has been particularly egregious in neglecting rights of innocent people in many cases. I doubt many slave owners had to use the method in the Bible for dealing with slaves who do not want freedom. Just mentioning it might prompt the slave to say, "It looks as though I might find a job out there after all." However, we're enjoined by Jesus himself to view god as just, loving and merciful. Since I'm assuming that even modern-day Christians don't simply view Jesus as a goofy kid, I see no particularly good reason why we should not mention these qualities when pondering on the whys and wherefors of the fact that god more often than not appears to conspicuously fail to display them, the issue of slavery being just one of the more profound examples of that lapse. |
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Post by amyghost on Aug 29, 2018 21:40:27 GMT
Which kind of makes it completely useless and unreliable as a moral teaching authority, doesn’t it? How "useful" something is often depends much on the person using it. But when the text being used is as bendable in interpretation as the bible usually is, that certainly helps the person using it quite a lot. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 29, 2018 21:59:28 GMT
Jesus had bonded slaves... Then the Roman Church changed their moniker to 'apostles'.
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Post by captainbryce on Aug 29, 2018 23:24:45 GMT
How "useful" something is often depends much on the person using it. But when the text being used is as bendable in interpretation as the bible usually is, that certainly helps the person using it quite a lot. Moreover, his premise is faulty on a more basic level. Because something that can be interpreted to fit ANY worldview, and justify ANY action, is completely useless “as a moral teaching authority”, no matter how often it is used. Something that can justify any moral position is by definition NOT a moral teaching authority. It’s just a tool that people use to fit their agenda, which often involves taking advantage of people. |
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Post by islandmur on Aug 29, 2018 23:48:19 GMT
In modern times there appears no good in slavery, at least not to most people. Some people prefer having no blame for anything and to be told everything to do, either by some master as did happen sometimes in the South when slavery was legal, or being told everything to do by the state, as many people today who resist accepting personal responsibility for anything. They set the state against anyone with "deep pockets." In Bible times there was no huge job market in many places and people preferred slavery for that reason. It wasn't so much that you had to whatever your master said, you didn't exactly, as it was because there was nowhere else to turn. I've noticed people on this board like things being either all bad or all good. That isn't realistic. Of course slavery is a terrible idea now and in the past. There were people who thought it was best on all sides though. One of the most cruel things in the Bible about slavery was what to do with a person who didn't want to go free. I have often wondered if people that defend slavery have any slaves in their family tree. |
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Post by permutojoe on Aug 30, 2018 2:16:19 GMT
Some of them will talk about how Africans helped capture and sell folks into slavery, and that made everything else that followed alright.
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