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Post by sostie on Aug 31, 2018 11:46:32 GMT
Depends on the size of the hole. Complaints about "plot holes" that are not relevant or that do not exist, or ridiculous excuses for plot holes can be just as bad.
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Post by lenlenlen1 on Aug 31, 2018 13:24:35 GMT
A) plot holes matter only in so much as they wreck the actual story of the movie, and/or it undoes something that was already established and not even in a clever retcon kind of way. For example: Darth vader did not create C3PO. Do you know how small a universe it would be if that were true?this is a false example for a plot hole. there is no narrative inconsistency with previous exposition or plot beats.
It may be called unnecessary fan service. But even that is not entirely correct.
Lucas uses the droid cleverly to make a point too: Anakin built a protocoll droid to "help mom". Later when his mother is killed, he gives the protocol droid to his senator wife (changing from silver to gold). The same way he projects his forbidden attachments & fear of loss from his mother onto his wife, which will lead to their downfall.
My example is false, yet you bring these up as legitimate?
Worst example: Leia Hugged First, when Leia after Han's death ignores Chewie (and he her) as well as all her surviving heroes she commands, just to go to Rey and hug her - a character she never met and who just might have killed her only son. the Sue must be accomodated regardless of character history and logic.
Or: Emo Ren prays to Vader to protect him from the light. Thus, the guy who redeemed himself by destroying the dark side and who is floating around as friendly Force ghost.
Neither of those are plot holes either. Leia hugging Rey may have been stupid but it doesn't destroy the story of the movie. Kylo praying to Vader doesn't refute that Vader turned to the light because Kylo's praying to the dark side version of Vader, not the light side version of Anakin.
But anyway we're getting away from the point. Either a movie works or it doesn't. Personally I think TFA works MUCH better than TPM. By far. But our disagreement here just goes to show what I wrote before, one man's plot hole is another man's "meh".
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Post by Tristan's Journal on Aug 31, 2018 13:55:55 GMT
this is a false example for a plot hole. there is no narrative inconsistency with previous exposition or plot beats.
It may be called unnecessary fan service. But even that is not entirely correct.
Lucas uses the droid cleverly to make a point too: Anakin built a protocoll droid to "help mom". Later when his mother is killed, he gives the protocol droid to his senator wife (changing from silver to gold). The same way he projects his forbidden attachments & fear of loss from his mother onto his wife, which will lead to their downfall.
My example is false, yet you bring these up as legitimate?
Worst example: Leia Hugged First, when Leia after Han's death ignores Chewie (and he her) as well as all her surviving heroes she commands, just to go to Rey and hug her - a character she never met and who just might have killed her only son. the Sue must be accomodated regardless of character history and logic.
Or: Emo Ren prays to Vader to protect him from the light. Thus, the guy who redeemed himself by destroying the dark side and who is floating around as friendly Force ghost.
Neither of those are plot holes either. Leia hugging Rey may have been stupid but it doesn't destroy the story of the movie. Kylo praying to Vader doesn't refute that Vader turned to the light because Kylo's praying to the dark side version of Vader, not the light side version of Anakin.
But anyway we're getting away from the point. Either a movie works or it doesn't. Personally I think TFA works MUCH better than TPM. By far. But our disagreement here just goes to show what I wrote before, one man's plot hole is another man's "meh".
correct as much as one man's treasure is anothe man's trash. TFA does not work at all, it may flow better due to the rehashed structure, whereas TPM has a cumbersome quasi-4-act structure (like TLJ).
But both my examles are logical inconsistencies (plot holes) withing the contecxt of the Saga narrative and plot beats:
1. Leia preferring to hug a complete stranger and ignoring Chewie after their best frend's death (though these two hugged frequently) and her ignoring her pilots (despte being their leader) makes no sense narratively (except for Mary Sue writing). I was confused in theater first and thought that this film was cut to pieces. Compare it to the similar scene in Act 3 of TLJ: Leia and Chewie hug when meeting, Rey hugs Finn and then greets BB-8 (Poe is another mild "plot hole" as they should know each other, and do in the novel).
2. Kylo praying to kylo is a classic plot hole, you now making forced stuff up to fill the hole up, only cements it further (puns intended). "You assume too much". But that does not undo the fact that this is a logical inconsitency that can only be remedied by making far-fetched assumptions such as to distinguish between praying to bad Vader instead to redeemed Anakin, which makes no sense unless teh Kylo character is extremely stupid especially considering Anakin#s Force ghost-y-ness (=ad absurdum interpretation).
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Post by lenlenlen1 on Aug 31, 2018 16:16:26 GMT
My example is false, yet you bring these up as legitimate?
Worst example: Leia Hugged First, when Leia after Han's death ignores Chewie (and he her) as well as all her surviving heroes she commands, just to go to Rey and hug her - a character she never met and who just might have killed her only son. the Sue must be accomodated regardless of character history and logic.
Or: Emo Ren prays to Vader to protect him from the light. Thus, the guy who redeemed himself by destroying the dark side and who is floating around as friendly Force ghost.
Neither of those are plot holes either. Leia hugging Rey may have been stupid but it doesn't destroy the story of the movie. Kylo praying to Vader doesn't refute that Vader turned to the light because Kylo's praying to the dark side version of Vader, not the light side version of Anakin.
But anyway we're getting away from the point. Either a movie works or it doesn't. Personally I think TFA works MUCH better than TPM. By far. But our disagreement here just goes to show what I wrote before, one man's plot hole is another man's "meh".
correct as much as one man's treasure is anothe man's trash. TFA does not work at all, it may flow better due to the rehashed structure, whereas TPM has a cumbersome quasi-4-act structure (like TLJ).
But both my examles are logical inconsistencies (plot holes) withing the contecxt of the Saga narrative and plot beats:
1. Leia preferring to hug a complete stranger and ignoring Chewie after their best frend's death (though these two hugged frequently) and her ignoring her pilots (despte being their leader) makes no sense narratively (except for Mary Sue writing). I was confused in theater first and thought that this film was cut to pieces. Compare it to the similar scene in Act 3 of TLJ: Leia and Chewie hug when meeting, Rey hugs Finn and then greets BB-8 (Poe is another mild "plot hole" as they should know each other, and do in the novel).
2. Kylo praying to kylo is a classic plot hole, you now making forced stuff up to fill the hole up, only cements it further (puns intended). "You assume too much". But that does not undo the fact that this is a logical inconsitency that can only be remedied by making far-fetched assumptions such as to distinguish between praying to bad Vader instead to redeemed Anakin, which makes no sense unless teh Kylo character is extremely stupid especially considering Anakin#s Force ghost-y-ness (=ad absurdum interpretation).
Thank you for proving my point. We could go on and on and on, disagreeing all the way... "meh".
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Post by dazz on Aug 31, 2018 22:47:25 GMT
My example is false, yet you bring these up as legitimate?
Worst example: Leia Hugged First, when Leia after Han's death ignores Chewie (and he her) as well as all her surviving heroes she commands, just to go to Rey and hug her - a character she never met and who just might have killed her only son. the Sue must be accomodated regardless of character history and logic.
Or: Emo Ren prays to Vader to protect him from the light. Thus, the guy who redeemed himself by destroying the dark side and who is floating around as friendly Force ghost.
Neither of those are plot holes either. Leia hugging Rey may have been stupid but it doesn't destroy the story of the movie. Kylo praying to Vader doesn't refute that Vader turned to the light because Kylo's praying to the dark side version of Vader, not the light side version of Anakin.
But anyway we're getting away from the point. Either a movie works or it doesn't. Personally I think TFA works MUCH better than TPM. By far. But our disagreement here just goes to show what I wrote before, one man's plot hole is another man's "meh".
correct as much as one man's treasure is anothe man's trash. TFA does not work at all, it may flow better due to the rehashed structure, whereas TPM has a cumbersome quasi-4-act structure (like TLJ).
But both my examles are logical inconsistencies (plot holes) withing the contecxt of the Saga narrative and plot beats:
1. Leia preferring to hug a complete stranger and ignoring Chewie after their best frend's death (though these two hugged frequently) and her ignoring her pilots (despte being their leader) makes no sense narratively (except for Mary Sue writing). I was confused in theater first and thought that this film was cut to pieces. Compare it to the similar scene in Act 3 of TLJ: Leia and Chewie hug when meeting, Rey hugs Finn and then greets BB-8 (Poe is another mild "plot hole" as they should know each other, and do in the novel).
2. Kylo praying to kylo is a classic plot hole, you now making forced stuff up to fill the hole up, only cements it further (puns intended). "You assume too much". But that does not undo the fact that this is a logical inconsitency that can only be remedied by making far-fetched assumptions such as to distinguish between praying to bad Vader instead to redeemed Anakin, which makes no sense unless teh Kylo character is extremely stupid especially considering Anakin#s Force ghost-y-ness (=ad absurdum interpretation).
Kylo praying to Vader imo is a big plot hole, like you said Anakin redeemed himself and becomes one with the force in the end signifying his good nature by his death, and he has the ability to become a force ghost so why or how does Kylo think he's paying to Vader or being guided by him? why doesn't Anakin actually appear to him and say Ben you are wrong stop being an emo bitch and help your mother?
I mean even Anakin's fall to the darkside doesn't work for Kylo, Anakin falls to the dark in a desperate attempt to protect his family, his rage is primarily filled by the pain of loss of his family such as after his mother died, or the pending death of Padame, so even if tempted by the dark again in death Anakin storywise should be against Kylo regardless because Kylo is choosing the darkness over his family, something Anakin would not do nor encourage really, imo.
The Rey.Leia hug isn't a plot hole, it is mary sue writing though as it's bashing you over the head about how special Rey is, as look even Leia wants to comfort her after what Rey lost, but Rey lost nothing except a kind of father figure who she barely knew...well Leia did the same thing to Luke in ANH after she lost her entire family...actually thinking about it this is consistent with her character as odd as it seems, sure she shouldn't have ignored Chewie, but even JJ admits that, obviously an easy way to do both is she goes to Chewie they have a brief moment together and Chewie motions to Rey, who they make a point of showing is alone in that moment whilst everyone else is hugging friends.
If they had set it up even just loosely that Han saw something in her, like the daughter they could have had, or daughter they lost and that's why he cares about her, this establishes why Kylo might also, why Leia makes the effort with Rey when she's never met her before, hell even in TLJ why Luke is so cold with her, they all see Rey as a stand in for this other character and each have different reactions to this, Han wants to protect her, Leia wants to help her, Kylo wants her by his side, Luke see's someone else he "failed", and all that takes is a few lines of dialog between Han & Leia which also gives those 2 characters more time together which they did not have and non of the OT big 3 have had in these films imo.
But the hug isn't a plot hole as it doesn't break any prior story established it's just odd how they did it.
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Post by Tristan's Journal on Sept 1, 2018 7:50:18 GMT
correct as much as one man's treasure is anothe man's trash. TFA does not work at all, it may flow better due to the rehashed structure, whereas TPM has a cumbersome quasi-4-act structure (like TLJ).
But both my examles are logical inconsistencies (plot holes) withing the contecxt of the Saga narrative and plot beats:
1. Leia preferring to hug a complete stranger and ignoring Chewie after their best frend's death (though these two hugged frequently) and her ignoring her pilots (despte being their leader) makes no sense narratively (except for Mary Sue writing). I was confused in theater first and thought that this film was cut to pieces. Compare it to the similar scene in Act 3 of TLJ: Leia and Chewie hug when meeting, Rey hugs Finn and then greets BB-8 (Poe is another mild "plot hole" as they should know each other, and do in the novel).
2. Kylo praying to kylo is a classic plot hole, you now making forced stuff up to fill the hole up, only cements it further (puns intended). "You assume too much". But that does not undo the fact that this is a logical inconsitency that can only be remedied by making far-fetched assumptions such as to distinguish between praying to bad Vader instead to redeemed Anakin, which makes no sense unless teh Kylo character is extremely stupid especially considering Anakin#s Force ghost-y-ness (=ad absurdum interpretation).
Kylo praying to Vader imo is a big plot hole, like you said Anakin redeemed himself and becomes one with the force in the end signifying his good nature by his death, and he has the ability to become a force ghost so why or how does Kylo think he's paying to Vader or being guided by him? why doesn't Anakin actually appear to him and say Ben you are wrong stop being an emo bitch and help your mother?
I mean even Anakin's fall to the darkside doesn't work for Kylo, Anakin falls to the dark in a desperate attempt to protect his family, his rage is primarily filled by the pain of loss of his family such as after his mother died, or the pending death of Padame, so even if tempted by the dark again in death Anakin storywise should be against Kylo regardless because Kylo is choosing the darkness over his family, something Anakin would not do nor encourage really, imo.
The Rey.Leia hug isn't a plot hole, it is mary sue writing though as it's bashing you over the head about how special Rey is, as look even Leia wants to comfort her after what Rey lost, but Rey lost nothing except a kind of father figure who she barely knew...well Leia did the same thing to Luke in ANH after she lost her entire family...actually thinking about it this is consistent with her character as odd as it seems, sure she shouldn't have ignored Chewie, but even JJ admits that, obviously an easy way to do both is she goes to Chewie they have a brief moment together and Chewie motions to Rey, who they make a point of showing is alone in that moment whilst everyone else is hugging friends.
If they had set it up even just loosely that Han saw something in her, like the daughter they could have had, or daughter they lost and that's why he cares about her, this establishes why Kylo might also, why Leia makes the effort with Rey when she's never met her before, hell even in TLJ why Luke is so cold with her, they all see Rey as a stand in for this other character and each have different reactions to this, Han wants to protect her, Leia wants to help her, Kylo wants her by his side, Luke see's someone else he "failed", and all that takes is a few lines of dialog between Han & Leia which also gives those 2 characters more time together which they did not have and non of the OT big 3 have had in these films imo.
But the hug isn't a plot hole as it doesn't break any prior story established it's just odd how they did it.
the scene (not the hug) is MS writing as well as a plot hole. MS writing is the bending of in-universe rules to accommodate a character, thus often creating plot holes and deus ex. Here we have with no good reason violations of the established character histories, backgrounds and plot points :
1. friends Leia and Chewie ignore each other when their best friend Han dies - this is not how these characters (or people in general) react to such a situation (cf hugging history of Chewie/Leia)
2. Leia ignores returning survivors as their general commander: In the rehashed ANH scene 19-year old (non general) Leia hugged the survivors as her friends and for a good reason (blowing up Death Star). She did not hug some random person she did not know.
3. In TFA she hugs a stranger who might just have killed her son and who had no big stake in Starkiller destruction.
No plot explanations are given why this absurd situation plays out like this (TLJ makes it worse). Your musings on all the canon characters seeing something in Rey is speculation and more Mary Sue writing: You are writing the script for them to explain the plot hole. All that would not explain why Leia-hugged-first happened that way: Why would Leia want to help and hug a stranger she never met and talked to over reacting to Chewie and her pilots after Han's death/Starkiller destruction? Logic leaps as in plot holes and a lot of Mary Sue, that's why.
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Post by dazz on Sept 1, 2018 8:13:05 GMT
Kylo praying to Vader imo is a big plot hole, like you said Anakin redeemed himself and becomes one with the force in the end signifying his good nature by his death, and he has the ability to become a force ghost so why or how does Kylo think he's paying to Vader or being guided by him? why doesn't Anakin actually appear to him and say Ben you are wrong stop being an emo bitch and help your mother?
I mean even Anakin's fall to the darkside doesn't work for Kylo, Anakin falls to the dark in a desperate attempt to protect his family, his rage is primarily filled by the pain of loss of his family such as after his mother died, or the pending death of Padame, so even if tempted by the dark again in death Anakin storywise should be against Kylo regardless because Kylo is choosing the darkness over his family, something Anakin would not do nor encourage really, imo.
The Rey.Leia hug isn't a plot hole, it is mary sue writing though as it's bashing you over the head about how special Rey is, as look even Leia wants to comfort her after what Rey lost, but Rey lost nothing except a kind of father figure who she barely knew...well Leia did the same thing to Luke in ANH after she lost her entire family...actually thinking about it this is consistent with her character as odd as it seems, sure she shouldn't have ignored Chewie, but even JJ admits that, obviously an easy way to do both is she goes to Chewie they have a brief moment together and Chewie motions to Rey, who they make a point of showing is alone in that moment whilst everyone else is hugging friends.
If they had set it up even just loosely that Han saw something in her, like the daughter they could have had, or daughter they lost and that's why he cares about her, this establishes why Kylo might also, why Leia makes the effort with Rey when she's never met her before, hell even in TLJ why Luke is so cold with her, they all see Rey as a stand in for this other character and each have different reactions to this, Han wants to protect her, Leia wants to help her, Kylo wants her by his side, Luke see's someone else he "failed", and all that takes is a few lines of dialog between Han & Leia which also gives those 2 characters more time together which they did not have and non of the OT big 3 have had in these films imo.
But the hug isn't a plot hole as it doesn't break any prior story established it's just odd how they did it.
the scene (not the hug) is MS writing as well as a plot hole. MS writing is the bending of in-universe rules to accommodate a character, thus often creating plot holes and deus ex. Here we have with no good reason violations of the established character histories, backgrounds and plot points :
1. friends Leia and Chewie ignore each other when their best friend Han dies - this is not how these characters (or people in general) react to such a situation (cf hugging history of Chewie/Leia)
2. Leia ignores returning survivors as their general commander: In the rehashed ANH scene 19-year old (non general) Leia hugged the survivors as her friends and for a good reason (blowing up Death Star). She did not hug some random person she did not know.
3. In TFA she hugs a stranger who might just have killed her son and who had no big stake in Starkiller destruction.
No plot explanations are given why this absurd situation plays out like this (TLJ makes it worse). Your musings on all the canon characters seeing something in Rey is speculation and more Mary Sue writing: You are writing the script for them to explain the plot hole. All that would not explain why Leia-hugged-first happened that way: Why would Leia want to help and hug a stranger she never met and talked to over reacting to Chewie and her pilots after Han's death/Starkiller destruction? Logic leaps as in plot holes and a lot of Mary Sue, that's why. Actually my musing was saying how had they done this it could have explained the situation and the perspectives of multiple characters going forward, but they didn't o instead all we get is everyone is fascinated with Rey the moment they meet her for no apparent reason.
The rest is MS storytelling, where she's the perfect most special person alive and everyone you love loves her and so should you, because she can do things no one else can because she's so damn special, MS writing doesn't necessitate plot holes, but it does require a whole lot of stretching your willingness to suspend your disbelief, Rey though goes full plot hole on a lot of things, such as her abilities to use the force with no training, despite training having been established part of learning these skills, or opening yourself to the force = god mode, where as with others it just broadened the scope of their knowledge a little but they still weren't perfect, or on par with a trained wielder of the force, or ability to fly the Falcon.
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Post by summers8 on Sept 1, 2018 8:22:35 GMT
Every movie has plot holes. my problem more is superficial light hearted dumbed down scripts
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Post by Terrapin Station on Sept 1, 2018 8:42:52 GMT
I don't agree with the definition given in the video, by the way. And seeming inconsistencies in the film's established material or "rules" are not necessarily plot holes. Plot holes are things that aren't shown or explained (which can be an inconsistency), but they're not just any arbitrary thing thats not shown or explained, as the video guy implies. They're things that aren't shown or explained that need to be shown or explained in order for the story, as presented, per the fictional world presented, to make sense and/or be fleshed out without the need for the viewer to become an adjunct fiction author in order to grasp the plot.
So, take the original Willy Wonka. It's not a plot hole when we don't show the details of the exact route and mode of transportation that Charlie Bucket took to get to the Chocolate Factory. That doesn't need to be shown or explained because we can reasonably expect viewers to accept that there was a way for Charlie to get there given the film's world as presented to that point.
However, If everything were the same in the film (except that the exterior of the Chocolate Factory is never shown prior to Charlie arriving), and then we finally see Charlie in front of the Chocolate Factory when the time comes, and the location turns out to be a Little Prince-style satellite orbiting Jupiter, and Charlie is standing outside of it just with his normal street clothes on, etc., and this is never explained, that would be a plot hole, because in context, it requires the viewer to become a co-author in order to flesh out material that should have been part of the story. There wouldn't be anything inconsistent or contradictory there, but it's still a plot hole.
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Post by hobowar on Sept 1, 2018 10:13:22 GMT
Every movie has plot holes. my problem more is superficial light hearted dumbed down scripts An mcu movie featured a man listening to a message from his dead wife talking about their dead son before attempting suicide, but yeah, definitely too light hearted.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 3, 2018 17:35:51 GMT
It depends on how seriously it takes itself. The higher they aim, the greater the fall. That's why movies that aim so high and come so close like Se7en piss me off so much more than...I can't even think of an appropriate example.
Most plot holes are pointed out to me in retrospect. Only a few of them have ever bugged me. 99.9% or more illicit the "it's only a movie" response from me.
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Post by hobowar on Sept 3, 2018 17:40:06 GMT
It depends on how seriously it takes itself. The higher they aim, the greater the fall. That's why movies that aim so high and come so close like Se7en piss me off so much more than...I can't even think of an appropriate example.
Most plot holes are pointed out to me in retrospect. Only a few of them have ever bugged me. 99.9% or more illicit the "it's only a movie" response from me.
What's your problem with Se7en?
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