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Post by Aj_June on Sept 3, 2018 15:05:00 GMT
One of the objections that may be raised to my poll question would be "define more moral"? Sure, morality is subjective and as such we can't define it properly. But for the purpose of this thread let us define morality in simpler terms. Let us define morality as being kind to others, more honest, more forgiving, charitable and helpful. Sure it all depends on subjective definitions of these terms. But let us assume we put both the average non-religious person and the average religious person in similar situations. Things can simplify a bit if we do that even if overall answer might still be subjective.
Now let's pick your vote. I may put some researches later. It would be even good if you not just vote but also let us know what you voted and why. That said it is still OK if you just vote anonymously and choose not to participate in discussion/comments.
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Post by CoolJGS☺ on Sept 3, 2018 15:34:43 GMT
Depends on the moral code one primarily lives by.
I haven't met a non-religious person that surpasses my Christian based morality but I can't imagine that wwould of be a goal of theirs.
Likewise there would be many secular moral codes I would ignore in a second if they interfere with my religious ones. The non-religious could have me beat there.
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Post by rachelcarson1953 on Sept 4, 2018 7:11:30 GMT
I can only base my answer on people I know; of those people, the non-religious ones are more moral than the religious ones.
My late husband was agnostic/atheist, he had a horrible childhood, and as an adult had compassion for others like him and helped whenever he could.
One of my better friends, a hard-core atheist, is one of the most moral people I know, always finding opportunities for random acts of kindness, donates anonymously, has great compassion for those less fortunate than she has been.
The humane rescue group I volunteer for is filled with non-religious people who concern themselves with lessening the suffering of animals, finding homes for abandoned and surrendered cats, and spaying and neutering feral cats to lessen the pet overpopulation problem.
I don't spend much time with religious people, but the ones that I do know are more concerned about people behaving properly (being judgmental) and less concerned with lessening suffering. Their charity seems to always have strings attached. They help others within the group of believers, but non-believers are largely ignored unless there is a possibility of conversion.
Because I live in the midwestern US, the majority of religious people I know are Christian or Jewish. I don't advertise my atheism because most midwestern Christians think atheists worship the devil, they think you are either for or against their definition of god. They have more of a herd mentality. The non-believers seem to think as individuals and are more tolerant of differing beliefs - a live and let live stance.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 4, 2018 7:46:41 GMT
I would say when rounding it out it's equal. I think this is because in my life I've associated myself with very diverse people and have gotten to know a close estimate amount of people both religious and non-relgious, and it's shown me that someone's religion is actually irrelevant to what their morals are or become. I say that because it doesn't matter if you're in a religion that teaches you moral codes if you never actually live by them. Its one of those things you have to learn and experience in your own way. I think our morals can be developed through time when we have a better mentality and understanding in life and it can also be influenced by our parents, and that includes either agreeing with your parents or going against them. For example if you grew up in a judgmental family, you might naturally want to be the opposite knowing how negative it's impacted you and others or you might naturally become judgmental like them from becoming used to that way of thinking.
But I think the best way to look at this is individually and not collectively.
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Post by Arlon10 on Sept 4, 2018 9:24:07 GMT
My objection to these comparisons between "religious" and "non-religious" people one often finds on the internet is that "Christianity" is lumped together with all the "religious" people. That way the surveys can show how much more "religious" people get divorces, how "religious" people make less income, are less well educated, or whatever measure you choose.
If you separate the "evangelical" (more on this definition presently) Christians out you won't get the same numbers. Atheists do not have less divorces than Jews, Muslims, Catholics, Buddhists and on and on. Atheists do not make more income. Atheists are not better educated.
I thought it was fairly well established on this board that those 'evangelical" Christians and most atheists are just two sides of the same bad coin, people with a superficial understanding of religion, science and most of everything else. They read at an elementary level. Thus are they bewildered by the superficial differences between various religions around the world other than Christianity.
I think it is a terrible mistake to count Trump supporters as "religious." They are very obviously not. They are in fact those "Christians" who give religion a bad name in those surveys.
The definition of an "evangelical" is problematic. That term has seen considerably more use since Trump was elected and largely to describe the sort of "religious" people who support him. It is not however well defined. The requirements are very few and very vague. It can be obvious that they are more nationalistic than religious. They really have no rules except being a member. If one of their members does it, it's fine. If someone not a member does it, it's a terrible offense.
So by quite many measures we already have the answer to your poll. Atheists and Trump supporters are generally less moral. People with an actual religion with rules other than simple membership are more moral.
Of course there are exceptions. There are very moral atheists and very moral self described, nondenominational Christians. And then there are some people with very little education who are the most decent people you will ever meet. Generally speaking though there is an observable pattern.
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Post by phludowin on Sept 4, 2018 9:42:50 GMT
A tricky question.
Morals and ethics are subjective, relative, and dependant from the society they are implemented in. Meaning: What's moral in one society may not be moral in another one.
Since morals are dependent from the society, a person acting moral is a person acting according to what the majority of the society believes is moral.
I also believe that religious people view morality differently; meaning that morals do not depend on what the majority wants, and that they believe that their religion has a moral code worth following.
So, in my opinion, religious people are more likely to violate the moral code of the society they live in than non religious people, because the latter may be more flexible, and adopt to the morals of their society.
That's why I voted the second option from the top.
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Post by geode on Sept 4, 2018 9:47:54 GMT
I know an ex-Mormon missionary who sought to convert people in Thailand. He said that sometimes the people they talked to would laugh and say, "All religions teach men to be good, you have your religion and I have mine. So why do you think it makes a difference to change?"
Yes, various religions teach men to be good. This should result in a higher percentage of religious people being more moral. Some may try to do good because they feel it the honorable thing to do. They might have the exact same reasons in doing good as non-religious people. Some religious people might do good out of fear of some future retribution, such as a threat of hell. I live in a country that is predominantly Buddhist. It is a common practice to release captive birds and fish to "make merit" but is this practice actually "doing good"...? Some of these same people abandon pet dogs at Buddhist temples.
I voted that religious people might be slightly more moral. In general they are not but in some religions people are being continually admonished to be moral. I think this may edge them slightly ahead of the non-religious.
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Post by Arlon10 on Sept 4, 2018 9:56:10 GMT
A tricky question. Morals and ethics are subjective, relative, and dependant from the society they are implemented in. Meaning: What's moral in one society may not be moral in another one. Since morals are dependent from the society, a person acting moral is a person acting according to what the majority of the society believes is moral. I also believe that religious people view morality differently; meaning that morals do not depend on what the majority wants, and that they believe that their religion has a moral code worth following. So, in my opinion, religious people are more likely to violate the moral code of the society they live in than non religious people, because the latter may be more flexible, and adopt to the morals of their society. That's why I voted the second option from the top. I suppose it's true that religious people "make" rules, for themselves anyway. I disagree however that people who live by the whims of a mindless herd are somehow more "moral." If your point is that Trump supporters are ever going to establish any morality, I think you're "whipping a dead horse."
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Post by Aj_June on Sept 4, 2018 10:10:57 GMT
Just a quick thanks to everyone who gave their views. I am in a bit of hurry at the moment so I will not elaborate right now but return to the topic later when I have free time. First, I will like to admit that all of your responses are honest while my response may not be honest because I specifically googled the topic and read various researches and opinions on internet. So even when I elaborate later it would at best be my interpretation of various researches or my opinions on those researches. Not likely to be my original beliefs on the topic. For now I have to say that this is a very complex topic as already acknowledged by all the respondents so far and various studies show conflicting results. I must say that monicah 's response is closest to what studies reveal. She hit the nail when she indicated that religious people are not very likely to act according to their religious beliefs. Also, non-religious people can be influenced by religious messages if you temporarily make them aware of the religious messages. However, even the studies are mostly inconclusive in this area. Not because it is impossible to do such studies but because such large scale studies have not been conducted. The best and largest one only took Christians, Muslims and atheists as subjects and ignored Buddhists, Jews, Hindus and various other religious and non-religious people. I will return to this topic later.
To PHE_de
My answer would be close to your answer but slightly different. I lie somewhere between 2 and 3 but more toward 3. But I do like to assert that mine is just an opinion. With no real proofs other than my personal beliefs.
You are very correct in identifying one of the problems. " "Christianity" is lumped together with all the "religious" people."
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Post by geode on Sept 4, 2018 10:29:47 GMT
Just a quick thanks to everyone who gave their views. I am in a bit of hurry at the moment so I will not elaborate right now but return to the topic later when I have free time. First, I will like to admit that all of your responses are honest while my response may not be honest because I specifically googled the topic and read various researches and opinions on internet. So even when I elaborate later it would at best be my interpretation of various researches or my opinions on those researches. Not likely to be my original beliefs on the topic. For now I have to say that this is a very complex topic as already acknowledged by all the respondents so far and various studies show conflicting results. I must say that monicah 's response is closest to what studies reveal. She hit the nail when she indicated that religious people are not very likely to act according to their religious beliefs. Also, non-religious people can be influenced by religious messages if you temporarily make them aware of the religious messages. However, even the studies are mostly inconclusive in this area. Not because it is impossible to do such studies but because such large scale studies have not been conducted. The best and largest one only took Christians, Muslims and atheists as subjects and ignored Buddhists, Jews, Hindus and various other religious and non-religious people. I will return to this topic later.
To PHE_de My answer would be close to your answer but slightly different. I lie somewhere between 2 and 3 but more toward 3. But I do like to assert that mine is just an opinion. With no real proofs other than my personal beliefs.
You are very correct in identifying one of the problems. " "Christianity" is lumped together with all the "religious" people."
I first voted "equal" and then changed my mind. But as discussion has gone, the definition of what is moral perhaps needs to be better defined . Is acting moral for the wrong reasons being moral? Of the people I know personally the non-religious are more likely to break the law or rationalize bending it. The people who have been the best to me when I needed help have not been overtly religious but did have religious beliefs. The people that have been the least nice were rather over the top in either trying to "sell" atheism or religion.
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Post by CrepedCrusader on Sept 4, 2018 12:25:45 GMT
There was actually a study that followed people from childhood into their twenties (I think), and it found that the ones who were raised religious were more likely to have negative traits as adults such as racism, nationlism, desire to get revenge for slights, etc. As teenagers they were more likely to be bullies and were more worried about "fitting in" than the kids raised atheist/agnostic. The reasoning seemed to be that the kids raised without religion were often taught how to behave based more on lessons of empathy, whereas the religious kids were more likely to receive a simple "God will be mad at you if you do bad things". One of the methods obviously (given the results) works better. Don't remember where I came across the study, but I remember it from a thread I made back on the original IMDb boards.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 4, 2018 12:40:57 GMT
Yes, an average non-religious person is significantly more likely to be more moral
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Post by CoolJGS☺ on Sept 4, 2018 12:48:37 GMT
Yes, an average non-religious person is significantly more likely to be more moral Again, based on what?
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Post by Deleted on Sept 4, 2018 12:57:15 GMT
Yes, an average non-religious person is significantly more likely to be more moral Again, based on what? Just my own experience.
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Post by CoolJGS☺ on Sept 4, 2018 13:08:15 GMT
Which just goes back to my point. Everyone 's opinion is based on their own moral code or a particular accepted code. It means nothing to have a competition about it.
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Post by clusium on Sept 4, 2018 23:18:02 GMT
One of the objections that may be raised to my poll question would be "define more moral"? Sure, morality is subjective and as such we can't define it properly. But for the purpose of this thread let us define morality in simpler terms. Let us define morality as being kind to others, more honest, more forgiving, charitable and helpful. Sure it all depends on subjective definitions of these terms. But let us assume we put both the average non-religious person and the average religious person in similar situations. Things can simplify a bit if we do that even if overall answer might still be subjective.
Now let's pick your vote. I may put some researches later. It would be even good if you not just vote but also let us know what you voted and why. That said it is still OK if you just vote anonymously and choose not to participate in discussion/comments.
Well, sometimes it depends entirely upon what people consider to be moral or immoral.
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Post by Aj_June on Sept 5, 2018 13:00:31 GMT
Just a quick thanks to everyone who gave their views. I am in a bit of hurry at the moment so I will not elaborate right now but return to the topic later when I have free time. First, I will like to admit that all of your responses are honest while my response may not be honest because I specifically googled the topic and read various researches and opinions on internet. So even when I elaborate later it would at best be my interpretation of various researches or my opinions on those researches. Not likely to be my original beliefs on the topic. For now I have to say that this is a very complex topic as already acknowledged by all the respondents so far and various studies show conflicting results. I must say that monicah 's response is closest to what studies reveal. She hit the nail when she indicated that religious people are not very likely to act according to their religious beliefs. Also, non-religious people can be influenced by religious messages if you temporarily make them aware of the religious messages. However, even the studies are mostly inconclusive in this area. Not because it is impossible to do such studies but because such large scale studies have not been conducted. The best and largest one only took Christians, Muslims and atheists as subjects and ignored Buddhists, Jews, Hindus and various other religious and non-religious people. I will return to this topic later.
To PHE_de My answer would be close to your answer but slightly different. I lie somewhere between 2 and 3 but more toward 3. But I do like to assert that mine is just an opinion. With no real proofs other than my personal beliefs.
You are very correct in identifying one of the problems. " "Christianity" is lumped together with all the "religious" people."
I first voted "equal" and then changed my mind. But as discussion has gone, the definition of what is moral perhaps needs to be better defined . Is acting moral for the wrong reasons being moral? Of the people I know personally the non-religious are more likely to break the law or rationalize bending it. The people who have been the best to me when I needed help have not been overtly religious but did have religious beliefs. The people that have been the least nice were rather over the top in either trying to "sell" atheism or religion. Hi Geode,
This topic will require me to write for 60 mins as I have 2 or 3 different studies to present. Rest assured I will address the points you raised in my next posts. I will probably find time on weekend to continue this discussion. Sorry for that but I appreciate your participation.
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Post by captainbryce on Sept 5, 2018 14:19:42 GMT
Western morals are different from eastern morals. Socialist morals are different from capitalist morals. Secular morals are different from religious morals. Christian morals are different from Muslim morals. Catholic morals are different from Protestant morals. And two individuals living in the same town, going to the same church, and professing the same faith can have different moral beliefs. Morals are subjective so the question is meaningless without defining WHICH morals you are talking about.
Edit: I voted equal because there was no option for “neither”.
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Post by mslo79 on Sept 6, 2018 13:38:00 GMT
I did not vote. but ill say this... someone who follows Christianity a bit more seriously is more likely to be more moral than the common person.
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Post by captainbryce on Sept 6, 2018 14:13:27 GMT
I did not vote. but ill say this... someone who follows Christianity a bit more seriously is more likely to be more moral than the common person. I disagree. Forgetting the fact that “following Christianity” is a phrase that means completely different things to Christians of different denominations and backgrounds, Christianity in itself teaches immoral principles depending on how one defines morality. So your position is demonstrably untrue in two separate ways.
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