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Post by snsurone on Oct 15, 2018 17:15:13 GMT
This has been a staple of many a movie and TV show.
What I'd like to know is how the Native Americans paid the gun runners.
Wampum?
Well, that's just small seashells or beads, worth nothing to white people.
And what was the motive for these unscrupulous men?
A personal vendetta?
Political connections?
Trying to start wars between the races?
I cannot believe that it was sympathy or liberal-mindedness.
This situation has always puzzled me.
Could someone please explain?
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Post by politicidal on Oct 15, 2018 18:03:21 GMT
Opportunism and in some cases, lack of foresight. Initially it was plain economics. Barter and trade for furs and other prized items they may have harbored. Then once the European powers began carving up the continent they made alliances with certain tribes and armed them if need be. But on the other hand, as soon as the Indian Wars really heated up in the 1800s, some territories at the time aimed to ban the trade between whites and Indians, like Colorado. But if there was money to be made, you can be sure people broke the law anyway. Some tribes were ahead of the curve like the Seminoles who built up an arsenal along with assistance from runaway slave settlements.
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Post by mattgarth on Oct 15, 2018 19:41:16 GMT
And it was an important plotline for two Anthony Mann/Jimmy Stewart classic Westerns: WINCHESTER '73 and THE MAN FROM LARAMIE
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Post by snsurone on Oct 15, 2018 22:36:57 GMT
Opportunism and in some cases, lack of foresight. Initially it was plain economics. Barter and trade for furs and other prized items they may have harbored. Then once the European powers began carving up the continent they made alliances with certain tribes and armed them if need be. But on the other hand, as soon as the Indian Wars really heated up in the 1800s, some territories at the time aimed to ban the trade between whites and Indians, like Colorado. But if there was money to be made, you can be sure people broke the law anyway. Some tribes were ahead of the curve like the Seminoles who built up an arsenal along with assistance from runaway slave settlements. I remember from American history classes in school that early settlers did trade cheap trinkets for furs with Indians. The furs were sold in Europe and the settlers benefitted financially. However, after America won its independence, this kind of business ended. So--how did men profit by selling weapons to the Native Americans? As I said, the Indians had no money to pay for the guns. IMHO, it was political; these men were paid by unscrupulous government officials who had their own agenda. |
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Post by BATouttaheck on Oct 16, 2018 2:54:29 GMT
And it was an important plotline in the Anthony Mann/Jimmy Stewart classic Western: WINCHESTER '73   "In a marksmanship contest, Lin McAdam wins a prized Winchester rifle, which is immediately stolen by the runner-up, Dutch Henry Brown. This "story of a rifle" then follows McAdams' pursuit, and the rifle as it changes hands, until a final showdown and shoot-out on a rocky mountain precipice."  If the young fella in the feathered headdress in that poster looks familiar .. "Young Bull" is being played by none other than |
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Post by BATouttaheck on Oct 16, 2018 3:06:07 GMT
And it was an important plotline for Anthony Mann/Jimmy Stewart's classic Western THE MAN FROM LARAMIE "Mysterious Will Lockhart delivers supplies to storekeeper Barbara Waggoman at Coronado, an isolated town in Apache country. Before long, he's tangled with Dave Waggoman, vicious son of autocratic rancher Alec and cousin of sweet Barbara. But he sticks around town, his presence a catalyst for changes in people's lives, searching for someone he doesn't know...who's been selling rifles to the Apaches."
 Filmed on location in New Mexico and Arizona  
got any more , mattgarth ? I have plenty of paste and the scissors are still cutting out pictures pretty good ! |
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Post by BATouttaheck on Oct 16, 2018 3:44:23 GMT
This has been a staple of many a movie and TV show. What I'd like to know is how the Native Americans paid the gun runners. This situation has always puzzled me. Could someone please explain? It's usually made clear in the films themselves and, if not, the actual method and transfer of payment is probably just as important to the plot as that infamous grapefruit knife used in "The Public Enemy". IMO, this thread might be more useful if it was actually about films in which the sale of guns was a plot point. Mattgarth has posted a couple already. As a "staple of many a movie " there MUST be more ! |
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Post by OldAussie on Oct 16, 2018 3:55:53 GMT
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Post by BATouttaheck on Oct 16, 2018 4:10:19 GMT
OldAussie Soldier Blue Looks awfully gory goin' by the yahoo.com images …  Candice is soooooo pretty in it tho' 
edit : even more gory when ya read the IMDb page trivia … think I'll pass on watching this one !
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Post by OldAussie on Oct 16, 2018 7:49:52 GMT
OldAussie Soldier Blue Looks awfully gory goin' by the yahoo.com images … Candice is soooooo pretty in it tho'
edit : even more gory when ya read the IMDb page trivia … think I'll pass on watching this one ! VERY VIOLENT!!!!!! Donald Pleasence is a very eccentric character selling guns to the Indians. |
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Post by koskiewicz on Oct 16, 2018 18:59:41 GMT
Back in those days, it was called "barter"
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Post by snsurone on Nov 10, 2018 2:35:17 GMT
Well, so far nobody has really answered my question about the motivation of the men who sold firearms to Native Americans in the 19th century.
But I still appreciate the responses you did send.
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Post by marshamae on Nov 10, 2018 3:30:29 GMT
European Trade with First Nations started in the 1500’s. It slowed down as more Native people were removed to “Indian territory “ in Kansas, Arkansas and Oklahoma. In the East Tribes traded fur, pemmican, as well as territory , knowledge and contacts, and labor , including fighting in wars for guns, money ,alcohol, cloth, metal wares, etc. Guns were probably not of great interest until the 1700’s when native people were pressed into fighting in the increasing wars between the French and British. The wars were also the reason Europeans were prepared to trade guns.
The west was a different story . The Spanish were interested in having the Native people convert to Christianity and then serving as slave labor in agriculture and mining. The Spanish introduced The horse into the American west. First Nations shifted between 1600 and 1700-ish from subsistance farming to nomadic hunters of the
buffalo. Firearms became an important tool in hunting from horseback. Western tribes traded buffalo skins,and deer skins for guns, cloth and metal wares. As the First Nations were contained in reservations the trade with whites died out, to be replaced with native crafts. This did not change until the rise of the First Nations casino and hospitality industry in the late 1980’s
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Post by teleadm on Nov 10, 2018 16:41:04 GMT
Didn't the sell "Fire Water" too?
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Post by snsurone on Nov 10, 2018 18:20:34 GMT
Great post, marsha.
I wonder if some of the gun runners were cattlemen anxious to rout homesteaders from grazing land by way of the Native Americans.
When I was a kid in elementary school, there was an illustration in my history text of 16th or 17th century settlers trading a tin plate for furs.
The Indian proudly wore the plate around his neck!
I believe that would be considered un-PC today.
The coming of the railroad marked the beginning of the end of Native American freedom.
In a way, I'm very glad that First Nation casinos are so successful; it's a fit vengeance for centuries of misery from the white man.
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