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Post by DC-Fan on Nov 3, 2018 17:31:33 GMT
Many MCU fans have failed to see why T'Challa was wrong to refuse to save Killmonger's life and Steve Rogers was wrong to aid and abet a double-murderer (Bucky) to flee from the law and refuse to allow Bucky to stand trial for his crimes. So I have a couple of simple questions for MCU fans:
1. MCU fans defend T'Challa for refusing to save Killmonger's life, claiming that Killmonger wanted to die and T'Challa was just honoring his wish. So my question is If your cousin wanted to jump off a bridge and kill himself or if your cousin was in a religious cult that wanted to commit mass suicide, would you honor their wish and just let them die?.
2. MCU fans defend Steve Rogers for aiding and abetting a double-murderer (Bucky) to flee from the law and refusing to allow Bucky to stand trial for his crimes, claiming that Bucky is innocent because he's brainwashed. So my question is If Alec Baldwin is arrested for beating up someone over a parking space and Daniel, William, and Stephen Baldwin all say Alec is innocent because Alec was attacked and was defending himself so Alec was just acting in self-defense, should the D.A. just say "OK. Your brothers claim you're innocent due to self-defense so we'll just take their word for it and we won't need to let a jury of the people hear testimony and examine evidence and decide whether or not you're guilty"?
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Post by merh on Nov 3, 2018 18:30:32 GMT
1. T'Challa was competing in an ancient ritual of his people. Their laws are their laws.
2. Baldwin was brainwashed & tortured?
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Post by Vassaggo on Nov 3, 2018 18:37:38 GMT
If a person steals intellectual property does he have the moral stance to critique the morals of characters in the stolen intellectual property?
Edit: Follow up question does the thief have the moral stance to question fans who didn't steal the intellectual property?
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Post by scabab on Nov 3, 2018 19:09:02 GMT
If your cousin wanted to jump off a bridge and kill himself or if your cousin was in a religious cult that wanted to commit mass suicide, would you honor their wish and just let them die? I'd do one better, I'd push him off myself.  |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 3, 2018 19:27:50 GMT
Many MCU fans have failed to see why T'Challa was wrong to refuse to save Killmonger's life and Steve Rogers was wrong to aid and abet a double-murderer (Bucky) to flee from the law and refuse to allow Bucky to stand trial for his crimes. So I have a couple of simple questions for MCU fans: 1. MCU fans defend T'Challa for refusing to save Killmonger's life, claiming that Killmonger wanted to die and T'Challa was just honoring his wish. So my question is If your cousin wanted to jump off a bridge and kill himself or if your cousin was in a religious cult that wanted to commit mass suicide, would you honor their wish and just let them die?. 2. MCU fans defend Steve Rogers for aiding and abetting a double-murderer (Bucky) to flee from the law and refusing to allow Bucky to stand trial for his crimes, claiming that Bucky is innocent because he's brainwashed. So my question is If Alec Baldwin is arrested for beating up someone over a parking space and Daniel, William, and Stephen Baldwin all say Alec is innocent because Alec was attacked and was defending himself so Alec was just acting in self-defense, should the D.A. just say "OK. Your brothers claim you're innocent due to self-defense so we'll just take their word for it and we won't need to let a jury of the people hear testimony and examine evidence and decide whether or not you're guilty"?
In context I thought it worked. I thought T'Challa was honoring his wish too. I would probably stop my own cousin, or at least try to, because I know mine a lot better than T'Challa new Killmonger. All in all I think he only knew him for a few days. They met, had a showdown, had another showdown. Half surprised T'Challa even brought him up for one last view of Wakanda.
I had some difficulty with Captain America after Civil War. I was not in love with the fact that he knew all along. I didn't feel for Bucky when Iron Man shot off his arm and although the fight probably ended the best way it could, I was less than pleased with Captain America working so hard to protect Bucky. His apology/explanation letter wasn't terrible though.
I'm not sure I follow the Alec Baldwin example. Best guess is the brothers weren't there or they might have joined in, either by pulling Alec back or joining in on the beating. Depends on why Alec punched him.
I was a tiny bit disappointed in Rogers, but he seems to know it and dropped his shield. I'd never let go of a shield like that.
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Post by DC-Fan on Nov 3, 2018 21:25:19 GMT
1. T'Challa was competing in an ancient ritual of his people. Their laws are their laws. So basically you agree that Wakanda is a primitive, barbaric, and savage society that still follows medieval rituals. Do Wakandans still follow the ancient ritual of stoning women who have had sex outside of marriage?
2. Baldwin was brainwashed & tortured? So claiming self-defense isn't good enough, but claimin brainwashing and torture is good enough to get a free pass and no jury trial? So you're basically saying that if Timothy McVeigh's parents had claimed that McVeigh was brainwashed and tortured when he was in the Army, then the government should've just taken their word for it and let McVeigh go free and not put McVeigh on trial for a jury of the people to determine if he's guilty? Got it!
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Post by Vassaggo on Nov 3, 2018 22:35:19 GMT
1. T'Challa was competing in an ancient ritual of his people. Their laws are their laws. So basically you agree that Wakanda is a primitive, barbaric, and savage society that still follows medieval rituals. Do Wakandans still follow the ancient ritual of stoning women who have had sex outside of marriage?
2. Baldwin was brainwashed & tortured? So claiming self-defense isn't good enough, but claimin brainwashing and torture is good enough to get a free pass and no jury trial? So you're basically saying that if Timothy McVeigh's parents had claimed that McVeigh was brainwashed and tortured when he was in the Army, then the government should've just taken their word for it and let McVeigh go free and not put McVeigh on trial for a jury of the people to determine if he's guilty? Got it!
I don't think you get to call a fictional place Barbaric and Savage when you can't even follow civilized rules like DON'T STEAL. |
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Post by damngumby on Nov 4, 2018 15:11:36 GMT
It’s funny how DC-Fanboy always creates this sort of thread after losing the very same argument in another thread. It’s as if he thinks hitting the reset button is somehow going to help him.
... and then the discussion immediately derails due to his nonsensical false equivalence comparisons and a complete inability to recognize the error of his ways.
I think someone else pointed it out recently - DC-Fanboy is just like a poorly constructed NPC. repeats himself, ad nausieum ... runs into corners and can’t get himself out ... the novelty quickly wears thin ... virtually worthless.
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Post by Skaathar on Nov 5, 2018 2:48:45 GMT
Dude, I keep telling you: If you're going to keep posting on this board please make sure you actually watch the movies first. You just keep making yourself look stupid.
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Post by Hauntedknight87 on Nov 5, 2018 12:29:54 GMT
"If your cousin wanted to jump off a bridge and kill himself or if your cousin was in a religious cult that wanted to commit mass suicide, would you honor their wish and just let them die?"
Depends on the context. Is he just randomly doing this or is this played out similar to Black Panther? Because if it's the latter I have no problem letting a mass murdering terrorist, who tried to start a race war, kill himself.
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Post by merh on Nov 5, 2018 15:59:50 GMT
1. T'Challa was competing in an ancient ritual of his people. Their laws are their laws. So basically you agree that Wakanda is a primitive, barbaric, and savage society that still follows medieval rituals. Do Wakandans still follow the ancient ritual of stoning women who have had sex outside of marriage?Did they ever have that rule? Women seem pretty equal there. www.marieclaire.com/culture/a21668/the-tanzanian-wives/So would the guy get stoned? The sort of tech used on winter soldier doesn't exist. Cryogenically freezing him. Erasing his memory. There is no court that could try him. The technology is top secret. It's the sort of situation where a handful(if that many) would discuss the situation & decide his fate. The public would not be allowed to know he existed. Giant cover-up. How do you think people would react to a WWII war hero being turned into a lab rat after his heroic service? Brainwashed? Tortured? Because Bucky was a Howling Commando during WWII. Newsreels showed him right in there with Cap. And the Hydra-infected SHIELD did this stuff to him without his consent? |
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Post by merh on Nov 5, 2018 16:05:51 GMT
Many MCU fans have failed to see why T'Challa was wrong to refuse to save Killmonger's life and Steve Rogers was wrong to aid and abet a double-murderer (Bucky) to flee from the law and refuse to allow Bucky to stand trial for his crimes. So I have a couple of simple questions for MCU fans: 1. MCU fans defend T'Challa for refusing to save Killmonger's life, claiming that Killmonger wanted to die and T'Challa was just honoring his wish. So my question is If your cousin wanted to jump off a bridge and kill himself or if your cousin was in a religious cult that wanted to commit mass suicide, would you honor their wish and just let them die?. 2. MCU fans defend Steve Rogers for aiding and abetting a double-murderer (Bucky) to flee from the law and refusing to allow Bucky to stand trial for his crimes, claiming that Bucky is innocent because he's brainwashed. So my question is If Alec Baldwin is arrested for beating up someone over a parking space and Daniel, William, and Stephen Baldwin all say Alec is innocent because Alec was attacked and was defending himself so Alec was just acting in self-defense, should the D.A. just say "OK. Your brothers claim you're innocent due to self-defense so we'll just take their word for it and we won't need to let a jury of the people hear testimony and examine evidence and decide whether or not you're guilty"?
In context I thought it worked. I thought T'Challa was honoring his wish too. I would probably stop my own cousin, or at least try to, because I know mine a lot better than T'Challa new Killmonger. All in all I think he only knew him for a few days. They met, had a showdown, had another showdown. Half surprised T'Challa even brought him up for one last view of Wakanda. I had some difficulty with Captain America after Civil War. I was not in love with the fact that he knew all along. I didn't feel for Bucky when Iron Man shot off his arm and although the fight probably ended the best way it could, I was less than pleased with Captain America working so hard to protect Bucky. His apology/explanation letter wasn't terrible though. I'm not sure I follow the Alec Baldwin example. Best guess is the brothers weren't there or they might have joined in, either by pulling Alec back or joining in on the beating. Depends on why Alec punched him. I was a tiny bit disappointed in Rogers, but he seems to know it and dropped his shield. I'd never let go of a shield like that.
Bucky was a war hero. He never consented to the experiments Red Skull did to him. In fact, isn't that a war crime? It was continued by Hydra. When the war ended Bucky shoild have been returned, but he wasnt. Instead more Guinea pig treatment. But Tony's the victim & Cap is wrong. Ok. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 5, 2018 16:24:27 GMT
In context I thought it worked. I thought T'Challa was honoring his wish too. I would probably stop my own cousin, or at least try to, because I know mine a lot better than T'Challa new Killmonger. All in all I think he only knew him for a few days. They met, had a showdown, had another showdown. Half surprised T'Challa even brought him up for one last view of Wakanda. I had some difficulty with Captain America after Civil War. I was not in love with the fact that he knew all along. I didn't feel for Bucky when Iron Man shot off his arm and although the fight probably ended the best way it could, I was less than pleased with Captain America working so hard to protect Bucky. His apology/explanation letter wasn't terrible though. I'm not sure I follow the Alec Baldwin example. Best guess is the brothers weren't there or they might have joined in, either by pulling Alec back or joining in on the beating. Depends on why Alec punched him. I was a tiny bit disappointed in Rogers, but he seems to know it and dropped his shield. I'd never let go of a shield like that.
Bucky was a war hero. He never consented to the experiments Red Skull did to him. In fact, isn't that a war crime? It was continued by Hydra. When the war ended Bucky shoild have been returned, but he wasnt. Instead more Guinea pig treatment. But Tony's the victim & Cap is wrong. Ok. I said I was disappointed in him. He was in a difficult position. No clear cut good or bad, it's nuance. Besides, I feel for anybody whose parents were killed, even if they were wrong for most of the movie. What are you saying, that Tony shouldn't have been upset? |
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Post by JudgeJuryDredd on Nov 5, 2018 20:38:27 GMT
Wow. Too much free time you have...
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Post by lenlenlen1 on Nov 5, 2018 20:51:01 GMT
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Post by lenlenlen1 on Nov 5, 2018 20:52:27 GMT
Wow. Too much free time you have... 
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Post by DC-Fan on Nov 5, 2018 23:17:58 GMT
The public would not be allowed to know he existed. Giant cover-up. The public already knew he existed. His face was all over the world news after the bombing. And he was arrested in public after a chase through a busy public street, with many witnesses who saw him being arrested. So no cover-up possible. Because Bucky was a Howling Commando during WWII. Newsreels showed him right in there with Cap. And the public doesn't give a shit about what he did during the war. The ONLY thing the public will give a shit about is that he murdered 2 innocent people. What Bucky did during the war is completely irrelevant to the murders of the Starks. Even war heroes aren't exempt from obeying the law. Bucky killed 2 innocent people so he should've been put on trial for those 2 murders. |
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Post by DC-Fan on Nov 5, 2018 23:32:03 GMT
What Bucky did during the war is completely irrelevant to the murders of the Starks. Even war heroes aren't exempt from obeying the law. Or are you saying that some people should get special privileges and should be able to kill anyone they want without being charged with murder? He never consented to the experiments Red Skull did to him. In fact, isn't that a war crime? It was continued by Hydra. When the war ended Bucky shoild have been returned, but he wasnt. Instead more Guinea pig treatment. And Bucky can argue that in court. You MCU fans still don't get it. I'll clarify it for you. I've never said that Bucky can't use brainwashing as a defense for murdering the Starks. What I've been telling MCU fans for a long time and which MCU fans still don't seem to get is that Steve Rogers shouldn't be the one to decide if Bucky is guilty or not guilty of murdering the Starks. It should be a jury of the people who decided that, and Bucky is free to argue to a jury that he was brainwashed.
Heck, the same thing applied to Timothy McVeigh. If McVeigh's parents wanted to argue to a jury that McVeigh was brainwashed, they're free to do that. Everyone has the right to argue their case in court. But my point is that it shouldn't be McVeigh's parents who decide if he's guilty or not guilty, just like it shouldn't be Steve Rogers who unilaterally decides if his best friend is guilty or not guilty. It should be a jury of the people who decides if McVeigh is guilty or not guilty, and it should've been a jury of the people who decide if Bucky is guilty or not guilty. Do you understand that now?
But Steve Rogers didn't want Bucky to be judged by a jury of the people because Steve Rogers believes that since he and Bucky and the Avengers are more powerful than the people, they should rule over the people like dictators rather than be judged by the people.
So my question to MCU fans is If Steve Rogers can claim that Bucky shouldn't be tried by a jury of the people because he was brainwashed, then what's to stop every other suspect accused of a crime from claiming that they shouldn't be tried by a jury of the people because they were brainwashed? And why stop at brainwashing and torture as excuses not to be tried by a jury of the people?
If a suspect claims they were sexually abused, then why not say "OK, that's a good enough excuse. You're free to go. No trial needed."? Or if a suspect claims he was bullied when he was in high school, then why not say "OK, that's a good enough excuse. You're free to go. No trial needed."?
So basically, why have juries and trials at all? Why not just let a tyrant like Steve Rogers unilaterally decide who's guilty and who's not guilty? |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 5, 2018 23:57:34 GMT
What Bucky did during the war is completely irrelevant to the murders of the Starks. Even war heroes aren't exempt from obeying the law. Or are you saying that some people should get special privileges and should be able to kill anyone they want without being charged with murder? He never consented to the experiments Red Skull did to him. In fact, isn't that a war crime? It was continued by Hydra. When the war ended Bucky shoild have been returned, but he wasnt. Instead more Guinea pig treatment. And Bucky can argue that in court. You MCU fans still don't get it. I'll clarify it for you. I've never said that Bucky can't use brainwashing as a defense for murdering the Starks. What I've been telling MCU fans for a long time and which MCU fans still don't seem to get is that Steve Rogers shouldn't be the one to decide if Bucky is guilty or not guilty of murdering the Starks. It should be a jury of the people who decided that, and Bucky is free to argue to a jury that he was brainwashed.
Heck, the same thing applied to Timothy McVeigh. If McVeigh's parents wanted to argue to a jury that McVeigh was brainwashed, they're free to do that. Everyone has the right to argue their case in court. But my point is that it shouldn't be McVeigh's parents who decide if he's guilty or not guilty, just like it shouldn't be Steve Rogers who unilaterally decides if his best friend is guilty or not guilty. It should be a jury of the people who decides if McVeigh is guilty or not guilty, and it should've been a jury of the people who decide if Bucky is guilty or not guilty. Do you understand that now?
But Steve Rogers didn't want Bucky to be judged by a jury of the people because Steve Rogers believes that since he and Bucky and the Avengers are more powerful than the people, they should rule over the people like dictators rather than be judged by the people.
So my question to MCU fans is If Steve Rogers can claim that Bucky shouldn't be tried by a jury of the people because he was brainwashed, then what's to stop every other suspect accused of a crime from claiming that they shouldn't be tried by a jury of the people because they were brainwashed? And why stop at brainwashing and torture as excuses not to be tried by a jury of the people?
If a suspect claims they were sexually abused, then why not say "OK, that's a good enough excuse. You're free to go. No trial needed."? Or if a suspect claims he was bullied when he was in high school, then why not say "OK, that's a good enough excuse. You're free to go. No trial needed."?
So basically, why have juries and trials at all? Why not just let a tyrant like Steve Rogers unilaterally decide who's guilty and who's not guilty?Steve Rogers is well aware of what would happen. He's not trying to argue Bucky's innocence. He knows he as a better chance of hiding him out in Wakanda and even Bucky seems to agree that the world is safer with him on ice. Steve Rogers is sentimental. If he were any better than what he is, he'd be perfect. Infuriatingly so, but he has a blind spot for his one link to his old life. Especially after what's her face died.
It's quite clear to me that Steve Rogers is being intransigent. He's not completely wrong about being dispatched where he shouldn't be or not dispatched where he should be, but I think he's the most lonely and has a low-key rage. He knows he's towing a fine line protecting Bucky but that's him at his least Captain America like and most Steve Rogers like. He dropped the shield because he can't take both it and Bucky with him. Iron Man knows it and once he said it, Rogers knew it too so he made a choice and left his symbol behind. He's mostly Captain America in name only now. And he's okay with it. Not thrilled, but okay.
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