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Post by telegonus on Mar 29, 2017 8:38:54 GMT
Just asking: do posters here regard Khartoum (1966) as a great film, a good one,--and if so, how good--an epic? I consider the film way underrated, with the maybe too predictable casting of Charlton Heston and Laurence Olivier (these two sort of had to meet and clash in something back then). Actually, I like both Heston and Olivier in the movie. They strangely complement one. another. Both actors are hams, with Heston understated and quietly effective, Olivier over the top and yet he somehow seems to capture something of the madness, the fanaticism of the character he's portraying.
Comparisons of this film with Lawrence Of Arabia abound, and the similarities were remarked upon upon even at the time of the film's release. I like Khartoum far better than the (for me) too long, too mannered and rather arty but not really particularly artistically distinguished David Lean epic from four years earlier. I think that Khartoum is not, in my humble opinion, a true epic picture works in its favor, lending it feelings of intimacy, of dread, of caring, on the part of the viewer, with the ending tragic and heartbreaking.
I doubt if I'd rate Khartoum a masterpiece. It's too much like many other pictures of its time; and it doesn't really stand out nor, for all its fine qualities, set itself apart from the pack. Maybe director Basil Dearden was the wrong man for the job. The direction doesn't feel inspired to me.Yet it gets the job done. In some respects it's a lost movie, not literally, but in its being too big and well known to be rediscovered, and lacking the offbeat "underground" qualities that might make it jump off the scream like an Aldrich, an Anthony Mann or a John Sturges might have done if one of those three directors had stepped up to the director's plate.
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Post by OldAussie on Mar 29, 2017 10:57:11 GMT
Best things -
An excellent score.
Excellent casting. I've read criticisms of Heston's accent but I had no problem. Also these days there's always negativity regarding white actors in "blackface" but again, I thought Olivier's over-the-top style suited the Mahdi - after all he only appears in about 4 scenes, probably 15 minutes in total. I really enjoyed Richardson's performance too.
Actually looks "epic" when sometimes epics can appear less than spectacular.
Weaknesses? -
The script.....whenever it threatens to dig a bit deeper than surface level it seems to lose its nerve. Possibly it doesn't trust an audience to think.
Since historical epics are my main weakness I often rate them a little higher than I should, so Khartoum is 7.5/10.
I still have 6 or 7 of those souvenir booklets they used to sell with the movie ticket in the good old days. This is one of them.
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Post by wmcclain on Mar 29, 2017 11:54:00 GMT
Sorry: it's just plain bad.
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Post by vegalyra on Mar 29, 2017 13:59:05 GMT
I for one enjoy it a lot. I had the old DVD and wasn't that impressed with the film. However, I purchased the Twilight Time blu ray release and it changed my perception of the film. While I enjoyed Heston and Olivier, the PQ of the blu ray instantly transformed the "epic" feel of the film and greatly enhanced my appreciation of it. I have to disagree regarding this film being better than Lawrence of Arabia, but it is quite good in opinion. It was released in the wrong era as the big "epic" film had already fallen out of fashion at its release. I think this has unfairly caused it be overlooked or criticized. I am also a sucker for epic films so I rate this one a little higher than some might but I give it a solid "8".
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Post by kijii on Mar 29, 2017 16:13:54 GMT
Personally, I have always regarded it as a GREAT film which relates and important story about British colonial history--much as Ghandi, Zulu and Breaker Morant did. It is epic in scope and is loaded with excellent actors.
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Post by BATouttaheck on Mar 29, 2017 16:46:25 GMT
Saw it as a kid and wasn't too impressed. Now I dislike Heston, especially in the epic type films, so much that I have never given it another look.
Lawrence, on the other hand, is a re-watch staple even though true-history-based is not really high on my list of go-to genres.
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Post by Richard Kimble on Mar 29, 2017 21:57:57 GMT
I also prefer Khartoum to Lawrence of Arabia, though that really isn't saying much -- I don't care for LOA or David Lean epics in general. Khartoum isn't so much an epic but a historical drama -- there is a difference -- the antecedent to all those BBC dramatizations of great events. Though of course it's partly fictionalized -- for example, Gordon and the Mahdi never actually met.
Heston himself said in his memoirs that Khartoum was his one film that would be improved with a different director. Why Basil Dearden got the assignment I don't know; price perhaps.
Khartoum's Heston-Olivier pairing lets us see what The Agony And The Ecstasy was intended to be before Olivier dropped out and was replaced by Rex Harrison. How might Harrison have played the Mahdi? Always smiling, superficially charming but constantly scheming? Although Harrison had a much narrower range than Olivier, I usually find him more interesting, or at least more entertaining, on camera. Harrison succeeded with "Olivier roles" in Cleopatra and TAATE, while Olivier scored with a "Harrison role" in Sleuth. How might that have worked with RH?
Khartoum was part of that subgenre of "Last Stand" films (The Alamo, 55 Days At Peking, Zulu). As this format can be taken as an allegory of the West vs the Third World, it quickly fell into disfavor in the era of PC.
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Post by politicidal on Mar 29, 2017 23:32:47 GMT
I liked it when I saw it (only time since) and feel like it's often forgotten. It's a decent example of the 'Imperial military' epic.
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Post by politicidal on Mar 29, 2017 23:34:43 GMT
I also prefer Khartoum to Lawrence of Arabia, though that really isn't saying much -- I don't care for LOA or David Lean epics in general. Khartoum isn't so much an epic but a historical drama -- there is a difference -- the antecedent to all those BBC dramatizations of great events. Though of course it's partly fictionalized -- for example, Gordon and the Mahdi never actually met. Heston himself said in his memoirs that Khartoum was his one film that would be improved with a different director. Why Basil Dearden got the assignment I don't know; price perhaps. Khartoum's Heston-Olivier pairing lets us see what The Agony And The Ecstasy was intended to be before Olivier dropped out and was replaced by Rex Harrison. How might Harrison have played the Mahdi? Always smiling, superficially charming but constantly scheming? Although Harrison had a much narrower range than Olivier, I usually find him more interesting, or at least more entertaining, on camera. Harrison succeeded with "Olivier roles" in Cleopatra and TAATE, while Olivier scored with a "Harrison role" in Sleuth. How might that have worked with RH? Khartoum was part of that subgenre of "Last Stand" films ( The Alamo, 55 Days At Peking, Zulu). As this format can be taken as an allegory of the West vs the Third World, it quickly fell into disfavor in the era of PC.
I'd argue the likes of LONE SURVIVOR (2013) or NO ESCAPE (2015) or 13 HOURS: THE SECRET SOLDIERS OF BENGHAZI (2016) are an American continuation of that sentiment. |
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Post by telegonus on Mar 30, 2017 5:29:00 GMT
I for one enjoy it a lot. I had the old DVD and wasn't that impressed with the film. However, I purchased the Twilight Time blu ray release and it changed my perception of the film. While I enjoyed Heston and Olivier, the PQ of the blu ray instantly transformed the "epic" feel of the film and greatly enhanced my appreciation of it. I have to disagree regarding this film being better than Lawrence of Arabia, but it is quite good in opinion. It was released in the wrong era as the big "epic" film had already fallen out of fashion at its release. I think this has unfairly caused it be overlooked or criticized. I am also a sucker for epic films so I rate this one a little higher than some might but I give it a solid "8". Thanks, vegalyra. Interesting comment on the timing of Khartoum's release. It's a funny thing. I remember when the movie came out and it was my feeling even then that it was the wrong time for the kind of movie it was. The thing is, it wasn't too far off the mark. Even two years earlier it might have been a hit, three or more a blockbuster. That's with the movie being somewhat different from the film we know, and overall a better fit for the year of its release. I know it might sound weird to drag,--of all people!--the Beatles into this--but Khartoum was a product of their Rubber Soul to Revolver period, with the even more high concept Sgt. Pepper right around the corner. That about sums up the era from the perspective of a teenager, which I was at the time. The movies were for good or ill, reflecting the growing influence of the tastes of teens and young adults. The year after Khartoum was the year that Bonnie And Clyde and The Graduate came out. That one year felt to me more like five, as things were changing so fast back then, just in fashion alone, from Carnaby Street to Nehru jackets to blue jeans. It was a wild era, and Khartoum, just from the advertisements for it, felt stodgy and old-fashioned. |
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Post by Richard Kimble on Mar 30, 2017 6:17:56 GMT
The year after Khartoum was the year that Bonnie And Clyde and The Graduate came out. That one year felt to me more like five, as things were changing so fast back then, just in fashion alone, from Carnaby Street to Nehru jackets to blue jeans. It was a wild era, and Khartoum, just from the advertisements for it, felt stodgy and old-fashioned. was old fashioned in handling but actually modern in its script emphasizing politics rather than Tyrone Power falling in love with the Mahdi's daughter. |
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Post by telegonus on Mar 30, 2017 6:36:45 GMT
As to real life politics, yes, in that sense Khartoum was quite modern. There were no concessions to romance,--unless one is of the inclination to see gay subtexts everywhere--and in this and other matters it really did seem to be aiming to be a "thinking man's epic" along the lines of Lawrence, with the downside of it coming to soon after the earlier film. I saw Khartoum on television for the first time when I was a senior in high school, down in Florida, not too long before graduation, and I was very impressed, found it thoughtful and, as it neared the end, very moving. It didn't seem square (or "square", if you will, at all).
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Post by teleadm on Mar 30, 2017 18:02:10 GMT
Since I don't think anyone has mentioned it, or at least I think so, that this movie could be seen as a companion piece to The Four Feathers 1939 (or it's remakes, and yes I know there is a 1929 version too). I like this movie and gave it 8/10 on old Imdb. I agree with the mentionings av Basil Dearden as maybe not the right director for this movie (look at his CV), and I also agree that the timing might have been wrong for such a release in 1966/1967 as this was the era of Swinging London and Carnaby Street, and smaller budget movies like The Knack 1965 and Morgan 1966 did well.
Here is a quote from an old book I have "The Clapperboard Book of the Cinema" 1975:
"Epics on a whole continued in the sixties to justify their big budgets, though to secure international appeal some curious decisions were made. In Kharthoum for instance, American Charlton Heston played British General Gordon, and British Laurence Olivier, who is thought to lend prestige but not box office appeal to a film, blacked his face to play the Mahdi. The film was a fairly serious and intelligent stab at history, and must have bored the action fans; even so, it invented for dramatic purposes two conversations between the leading characters, who in real life never met."
I hope you thought was a little interesting to read.
Lewis Gilbert was originally slated as the director, but as it took so long to get this movie going, he jumped of and made the rather modestly budgeted Alfie 1966 instead, and that movie was a big box office success and also part of the Swinging London era. Burt Lancaster (as Gordon) also jumped off the project. When Heston was contracted he wanted Guy Green to direct, since they had worked well together on Diamond Head 1962. So I think the choice of Basil Dearden might have been a last minute call, since he had never worked on such a big budget movie before. Heston and Dearden didn't liked each others style and didn't agree on many things during production. They never worked together again. Basil Dearden sadly died in a car crash while scouting for locations to shoot the TV-Series The Persuaders 1971 (though he stands as director for 3 episodes).
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Post by vegalyra on Apr 3, 2017 16:26:16 GMT
I for one enjoy it a lot. I had the old DVD and wasn't that impressed with the film. However, I purchased the Twilight Time blu ray release and it changed my perception of the film. While I enjoyed Heston and Olivier, the PQ of the blu ray instantly transformed the "epic" feel of the film and greatly enhanced my appreciation of it. I have to disagree regarding this film being better than Lawrence of Arabia, but it is quite good in opinion. It was released in the wrong era as the big "epic" film had already fallen out of fashion at its release. I think this has unfairly caused it be overlooked or criticized. I am also a sucker for epic films so I rate this one a little higher than some might but I give it a solid "8". Thanks, vegalyra. Interesting comment on the timing of Khartoum's release. It's a funny thing. I remember when the movie came out and it was my feeling even then that it was the wrong time for the kind of movie it was. The thing is, it wasn't too far off the mark. Even two years earlier it might have been a hit, three or more a blockbuster. That's with the movie being somewhat different from the film we know, and overall a better fit for the year of its release. I know it might sound weird to drag,--of all people!--the Beatles into this--but Khartoum was a product of their Rubber Soul to Revolver period, with the even more high concept Sgt. Pepper right around the corner. That about sums up the era from the perspective of a teenager, which I was at the time. The movies were for good or ill, reflecting the growing influence of the tastes of teens and young adults. The year after Khartoum was the year that Bonnie And Clyde and The Graduate came out. That one year felt to me more like five, as things were changing so fast back then, just in fashion alone, from Carnaby Street to Nehru jackets to blue jeans. It was a wild era, and Khartoum, just from the advertisements for it, felt stodgy and old-fashioned. Very interesting putting it into perspective of what else was going on during the period, particularly through the lens of Beatles releases. I hadn't thought of it like that, and it lends even more credence to the opinion that had it been released a few years earlier it would be more widely viewed and regarded. I wasn't born for another decade, but I can only imagine the tremendous changes that were occurring during your lifetime. Popular culture in general was moving rapidly! I do adore this film though, as I do most of the widescreen epic type films of the 1950's and 1960's beginning with the Robe. |
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Post by telegonus on Apr 3, 2017 19:04:28 GMT
Thank you, and truly, vegalyra, Times were a changin' at incredible speed back when Khartoum was being made and then released. It's like the earth's tectonic plates were shifting where culture, popular and otherwise, was concerned. Within a few short years America's favorite movie actresses changed, from the wholesome, eupeptic Doris Day and Debbie Reynold to Faye Dunaway, Mia Farrow and Ali MacGraw; and the leading men from the likes of Rock solid Hudson, Gregory Peck and the still strong at the box-office Jimmy Stewart to Dustin Hoffman, Jon Voight and Warren Beatty.
Somewhere in-between there was Julie Andrews, a massive superstar for a couple of years, and a symptom (so to speak) of the Anglophilia that was sweeping the land in the wake of the JFK assassination, along with the Beatles and the James Bond franchise. The year Khartoum was released a no-star small scale British black and white romantic comedy, Georgy Girl, also came out, and was a surprise hit, with its title song all over the radio. Those big budgeted movies that had been "saving" Hollywood (from television, the declining box-office) since at least The Robe (1953) were no longer in fashion, and the studios lost a ton of money on a lot of them in the late Sixties into the early Seventies, with the failure of the as late as 1973 musical remake of Lost Horizon showing that simply were not picking up on the vibes.
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Post by BATouttaheck on Apr 3, 2017 19:19:42 GMT
telegonusWas channel surfing late at night this weekend. Screen shows two guys talking and saying "There's Khartoum, over there". I think" "Hey what a co-incidence. They were just talking about this movie on the board." Turned out to be an episode of The Time Tunnel. Close !
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Post by telegonus on Apr 4, 2017 8:09:37 GMT
Wasn't Time Tunnel's run around the same period as when Khartoum came out? I think so. Middle to late Sixties. I believe they made references to current films, songs, politics and even other shows on TV at that time. Get Smart did it fairly often, as did Batman (remember Gotham's Mayor Linseed?).
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Post by Richard Kimble on Apr 4, 2017 8:48:28 GMT
Wasn't Time Tunnel's run around the same period as when Khartoum came out? Same year - 1966. Laugh if you want, but I have strange and perhaps inexplicable affection for TTT. Maybe it's the history buff in me. Maybe it's the stock footage from the Fox library. Maybe it's the Irwin Allen production, which got Irwin Allener as the season went on. Eventually in the "Cowboys and Aliens" episode Irwin was up to his old tricks, using body paint for an alien costume and having the aliens walk onto the set -- his usual Lost In Space technique, as transporting was an expensive special effect. My favorite episode, where Tony (James Darren) returns to Pearl Harbor on December 6 1941 and meets his father, who is destined to die the next day in the attack, is actually kind of moving. A rare photo from the TT pilot, with Dennis Hopper as a passenger on the Titanic. All of DH's scenes were cut from the final print.  |
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Post by telegonus on Apr 5, 2017 6:35:49 GMT
Interesting about Dennis Hopper. Of the "James Dean alums" it took him the longest to finally make a name for himself. Apparently he alienated quite a number of suits in Hollywood back then.
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