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Post by Raimo47 on Dec 18, 2018 19:58:10 GMT
I'm willing to take lots of constructive criticism, but if somebody tries to bully me, I will retaliate. I am fairly bad at retaliating, or lets say cannot remember ever having done so, but then again, i have not ever experienced being bullied at work (i understand that is me being very fortunate). This is more about at which point - if at all - should one either give up or resist by standing up for their work. I think I have about one more round of critical review in me, then I will most likely accept that I don't necessarily place the same values on the same things/in the same ways as the reviewers on move on, knowing I have done my best. I don't usually have such subjective situations at work. I rarely get any kind of feedback, and if I do, it's usually positive. If somebody criticises my work, I can usually prove that he/she is wrong, or he/she can prove that I'm wrong.
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Post by mecano04 on Dec 19, 2018 2:45:48 GMT
It's the kind of question usually I pass because there is so much things that needs to be defined that it becomes loaded. Since the beginning and ending do seem to cover the same subjects, let's start from there. Are you working in the public sector? If so, how many of the people disliking your work can actually reprimand, suspend or, down the line, fire you? If you're in the private sector (it also applies to the public one but to a different extent) Are those people above or under you in the hierarchy? If so, do any of those have any reason (see something to gain from) to derail, downgrade or dislike your work? Just to be clear I'm not saying you shouldn't get second or third opinions, listen to constructive (I believe you are smart enough to make the difference between what is and what is not) criticism or ask for advice but at some point it may be better to deliver what is wanted, even if it contradicts your belief of what is "good". Back when I was studying in Industrial Design, one of the first thing that we were told and that was drilled in our vision is that the client vision is what matters. He/she is the one coming with money that ultimately allows you to pay the bills so he/she is "right" (despite the saying we all know the limits of "the customer is always right"). Teachers (who all worked in the industry prior to teaching) would tell us that after some time, when the client comes in to take a look at the different concepts of the product, his/her choice is the one you go with. Even if your personal favorite is another, even if you feel you outworked yourself on one or feel like Da Vinci on another, the one that the client chose is what matters. One thing you (probably know) must remember is that most people plain suck at describing their ideas, concepts, problems, whatever. I'm not gonna go on to explore why and usually it's not because of a lack of vocabulary but there seems to be a struggle in the process of putting in words the idea they have in their head. When it came to industrial design it was that, often they couldn't properly define the parameters themselves or they were overwhelmed with the possibilities offered so they were lost in a sea of information. In that field, at times the whole thing did look like this: Also in another life, as a car mechanic, especially in major companies dealers (Ford, GM, Chrysler, Toyota, whatever) where there is someone at the service counter, it gets ridiculous. Here are 2 actual and somewhat typical "messy" complaints I would have to work on: 1- The dashboard screen keeps "freezing". That was the complaint, to the letter. So what did I do? I got the car inside, went through all the different menus, tried different buttons. It never froze on me. I asked the guy working at the counter if he had more info but it wasn't the case so after just a few minutes, since I didn't find anything wrong, I got the car out and "punched" off that one. About 20 minutes after I got the car back to the parking lot, I hear my name on the intercom and need to go to the service counter. The client is mad and cursing because the problem wasn't solved. Sirius satellite radio wasn't working. The electronic guy got the job and solved it. 2- There is a weird noise when driving. 1st step of every diagnosis is to confirm the problem/issue. In the mechanic world that often means a road test. So I go on the road with the car and then the symphony starts. I hear 2 bearings, the exhaust (in away that says there is a hole somewhere), weird noise and sensation in the steering wheel and 2-3 other rattles. So I come back and go to the service counter to ask what needs to be fixed, since there are many issues. The guy says he will call the client. Turns out it's the new rattle near the trunk. The other sounds aren't seen as problems by the client. They(clients) are used to functioning in a way, correct or not, so they go on like that. I said 2 but to better support my point (that you surely see by now) here is another example that happened to a friend working at Volkswagen at the time: 3- A lady comes in for a regular "small" maintenance (oil change). She also let know that the engine is making weird noises and behaving strangely. My friend confirms that there is an isse and since the car also needed maintenance, he checks out the oil. It's not his pictures, but this is what it looked like: Just to be clear, engine oil isn't supposed to look like treacle or grease. The last oil change was 20 000Km ago. Why did go on that long with the same oil? Many cars of recent years have this, an oil "life" indicator. It's a virtual gauge in your dash that tells you when the oil has just been changed an when it needs to be changed. Thing is, on some vehicles, the gauge reset automatically (after the change) while on some you need to reset it yourself by pressing a button. Somehow, someone let that lady out with her (then) brand new car, without making sure that she understood that pressing the button only reset the gauge, not the oil itself. So she pressed the button a few times instead of getting to the dealer for the maintenance. All those examples were a long version of what can be the source of the problem. Communication is often a major "culprit" but it's often the fact that people either misexplain and/or misundertand. At times, there is also a lack of knowledge but it doesn't seem to be case for you. Since you stated that you have went over your work a few times I would guess it's not the issue but maybe you and the others (still?) have different understandings of the expectations, results and the way to get this done. That could be why the feedback seems to be going all in one direction. If most of the feedback is constructive, maybe it's not that you're doing bad work per say but that it's off the mark when it comes to what is required or desired. Maybe it's like the Volvo YCC ( www.media.volvocars.com/global/en-gb/models/ycc/0). You fulfill 99% of the expectations (or requirements) yet one detail just derails the whole thing (the expected price in that case). As for how much of this criticism (constructive or not) you can take, it depends on your personal threshold. It comes down to your "flexibility" or adaptiveness and resilience. Problem is you can't really find how adaptable and resilient you are until face adversity. But the bottom line of all this is even if you decide to say you had enough and chose to leave, still use that experience to "grow". Use that experience so you're ready to go over those obstacles properly at another point.
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Post by lenlenlen1 on Dec 19, 2018 3:20:31 GMT
Lets say you are working on a project and then submit it for a review and get negative feedback back. You rework it, resubmit it, and still get negative feedback. Now from a different person. you take it again, rework it again, resubmit it again, and now the previous people like it or like it more, but then a new person comes into the review process and they dislike it. Like a lot. So you take it and rework it again…. I am wondering how much more of it I can take, before I start to feel like A) I am simply unable to do a job that would be satisfactory to the reviewers, and/or B) I am doing something I believe is good and I like it, so there is only so much negative feedback I should take into consideration. I feel like its really hard to find balance between being able to absorb constructive feedback and try and improve and doing something you yourself believe is deviating from what you personally like / think is good. But you may be wrong because you are too close to it of course. Anybody has a story of how they dealt with something similar in their lives? How much criticism are you willing to take on in your professional life? Oh and I should mention that the feedback is from various people some more proficient in what you do, some less... Are these people your superiors and you're doing the project for them, like say you're working on something for your "boss" at work? Or are these people some folks you're just asking criticisms of? If its the second then just move on.
But if its the first I think you need to do 2 things. And I recommend these because its what I would do.
1) Find the final judge of your work, the ultimate person with yes or no power on this. 2) Submit it to that person, and make it clear to them that you have worked and re-worked this project more than enough times for there to be a satisfactory conclusion to the work. Three times really should be enough. If it's not, then you should be allowed to move on to another project.
If that person still wants more, then you need to demand perfectly clear and concrete direction as to what is expected. If that person is satisfied, but the others in the group are not, then you can tell them that "the boss" is satisfied with the work and you've moved on to another project.
If your interpretation of the events are correct, then it sounds a little like you're being pushed around and need to stand up for yourself. This will show them that you have some back bone and how far they can push you. If you don't stand up for your self you'll regret it and they'll never learn you're not a push over. The current state of back and forth isn't getting any of you anywhere.
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Post by Nora on Dec 19, 2018 3:21:53 GMT
mecano04 thank you for a thoughtful post. i LOVED the pictures with the tree. very funny. and often true. i work in the private sector but my work is really subjective, what one might think is good, others may find bad. but there are some commonly recognized elements and i feel like at least a portion of the criticism was correct, even though unexpected, since it was like a third round of the review. the reviewers are my peers so its not a fire or leave situation its more "we are trying to help you succeed". which is a good situation be in, even though sometimes it stings. its just hard to recognize which criticism is the reviewers being right and when its just different taste/opinion. BUT I have just watched the latest episode of the Big Bang Theory, and there was an interesting line there. "you learn as much from your failures as you do from your success. maybe even more. about yourself". so i try and look at it that way. its a new situation for me, not a particularly pleasant one, but i am sure learning a lot. just opening this thread and reading the responses here helped me through the thought process and made me realize several things. so thank you all for responding.
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Post by Nora on Dec 19, 2018 3:26:20 GMT
Lets say you are working on a project and then submit it for a review and get negative feedback back. You rework it, resubmit it, and still get negative feedback. Now from a different person. you take it again, rework it again, resubmit it again, and now the previous people like it or like it more, but then a new person comes into the review process and they dislike it. Like a lot. So you take it and rework it again…. Are these people your superiors and you're doing the project for them, like say you're working on something for your "boss" at work? Or are these people some folks you're just asking criticisms of? If its the second then just move on....
they are not my bosses. peers that were asked to give their opinion. they effectively have no power over me, but have different roles on the project so their opinion is of some validity. to be fair, the new reviewer didnt know i had already gone through a couple of reviews with the other people. i honestly dont feel like there is any malice or pushing around. i am just trying to find the threshold between what A] i am willing to change because i recognize its not my best work and what B] i shouldn't change because while it may not appeal to their taste it appeals to mine. somehow that line is hard to define. but today is more clear than yesterday. i got pass the initial feeling of immense frustration and just focused on improving what was suggested to be improved. and standing behind the rest confidently.
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Post by lenlenlen1 on Dec 19, 2018 3:26:59 GMT
well i like to think i can take criticism fairly well. in a way that unless i see its obviously try to hurt / attack you, perhaps for personal reasons, i listen to it, try and absorb it, and then improve. but i wonder where to draw the line… and IF to draw it at all. To be honest, I expect it depends a lot on my personal opinion of the individual and how they approach the subject.
If I like them, or I can see they're trying their best to balance diplomacy and honesty, then I'm more likely to give them a fair hearing.
However, if I don't like them, or they rub me the wrong way, I'm more likely to tell them what I once told an ex brother-in-law...
"You can suck my dick and kiss my arse!"
Daaayyyyuuuummmm! You told him to suck your dick AND kiss your arse?! That's some passion right there!
How did that work out for you? Did you get the blow job and the salad tossing? I didn't take you for a salad tossing kind a guy, but hey, they do things different in the outback, don't they?
Nora cant tell them to suck her dick, of course. She not having one. I hope!
Ant-Mac is a beast! And if ya'll don't like it.. well you all know what you can do! It involves his dick and his ass.. arse!
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Post by lenlenlen1 on Dec 19, 2018 3:40:13 GMT
Oh man, that looks delicious! I like putting a lot of BBQ sauce on my grill too!
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Post by ant-mac on Dec 19, 2018 4:09:52 GMT
To be honest, I expect it depends a lot on my personal opinion of the individual and how they approach the subject.
If I like them, or I can see they're trying their best to balance diplomacy and honesty, then I'm more likely to give them a fair hearing.
However, if I don't like them, or they rub me the wrong way, I'm more likely to tell them what I once told an ex brother-in-law...
"You can suck my dick and kiss my arse!"
Daaayyyyuuuummmm! You told him to suck your dick AND kiss your arse?! That's some passion right there!
How did that work out for you? Did you get the blow job and the salad tossing? I didn't take you for a salad tossing kind a guy, but hey, they do things different in the outback, don't they?
Nora cant tell them to suck her dick, of course. She not having one. I hope!
Ant-Mac is a beast! And if ya'll don't like it.. well you all know what you can do! It involves his dick and his ass.. arse!
Technically, I called him a fat, bald bastard who could suck my dick and kiss my arse.
He didn't take it well. What a shame...
And why can't Nora tell them to suck her dick? GI JANE did...
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Post by Roberto on Dec 19, 2018 14:51:12 GMT
How exactly can you be a professional at life? Be good at not dying?
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Post by Nora on Dec 19, 2018 16:56:03 GMT
How exactly can you be a professional at life? Be good at not dying? so far i am fairly good at not dying. and have been for decades. lets hope it lasts.
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uncreative
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Post by uncreative on Dec 21, 2018 3:27:23 GMT
I intentionally do things the "wrong" way because my old boss was fine with the way I did stuff but the new one always wants to make things needlessly complicated. Then he says he doesn't care how it used to be and that's not how things should be done and I silently complain in my head.
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Post by Marv on Dec 21, 2018 17:46:56 GMT
Depends on many factors.
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Post by Nora on Dec 22, 2018 4:30:33 GMT
I intentionally do things the "wrong" way because my old boss was fine with the way I did stuff but the new one always wants to make things needlessly complicated. Then he says he doesn't care how it used to be and that's not how things should be done and I silently complain in my head. what do you mean you intentionally do things the wrong way. like the old way? i did my thing the best way i know how. since then i reworked it (well my team did) 10 times. not kidding. we are now on version 11 of revisions. after the initial frustration i felt when i started this thread, i managed to get productive again and hopefully changed things for the better. the trouble is, i no longer know whats "better". you know what i mean? i felt like i knew it at the beginning but now its all kinda ... blurred lines.
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Post by Aj_June on Dec 22, 2018 13:55:03 GMT
In general people are biased to their own opinions. Not everyone believes that criticism on them is fair even if it may be fair. I don't have any stats but from my experience in my previous office I can say that people who take criticism in a positive way rise faster than people who are not so welcoming of criticism. That said I do believe that may not be true in all cases. Sometimes, people who are given to not take criticism lightly may rise more. Of course, there may be people who are not interested in doing well at the cost of hurt ego.
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Post by Nora on Jan 2, 2019 2:15:29 GMT
so tomorrow I am submitting the reworked project to the reviewer that last rejected it, AND to one more person they brought in. Its reworked and although I personally like it less, the people around me like it more. Thats a strange situation to be in. But I am going with what the majority of people say and just hope for the best.
Wish me luck that this time around is the charm! I dont think I could take another round of reworking it. I really really need this one to go well.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 2, 2019 6:34:59 GMT
I have never faced criticism at any of the places I have worked at and I have mostly got the opposite. My current boss is really friendly and is always praising me and she let me have a lot of days off work last year when I was sick with the flu and rang me up a few times to ask how I was feeling.
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Post by Nora on Jan 3, 2019 7:51:37 GMT
I have never faced criticism at any of the places I have worked at and I have mostly got the opposite. My current boss is really friendly and is always praising me and she let me have a lot of days off work last year when I was sick with the flu and rang me up a few times to ask how I was feeling. well that must feel nice. enjoy it.
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Post by Nora on Jan 3, 2019 7:57:18 GMT
so shit is fucked, the reviewer still didnt like it. now i am A) back to being extremely frustrated and B) worried that its just not within my capabilities to deliver something better, since i honestly tried already the first time, then put a lot of work and effort into several rounds of revisions, and tried my best to deliver good results.
i can try and rework it again, but at this point i feel really quite disheveled - if that is a word - and not sure i even know how to do this better. which is the most frustrating thing i guess. when you do give it all your skills and effort and its still not good, what else is left to do?
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Post by ck100 on Jan 3, 2019 8:33:53 GMT
Depends on what I'm doing. If it's something I know I'm not good at, then I shouldn't let it faze me. It's not going to make me any better and I doubt I'll want to be any better at it anyway if I know I'm not good at it. If it's something I am good at, then it depends on the criticism. I know if I'm good at something I won't be perfect at it, but if I generally perform it well, a criticism here and there, and depending on the criticism itself, shouldn't be too much of a problem for me.
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Post by Nora on Jan 3, 2019 22:48:46 GMT
Depends on what I'm doing. If it's something I know I'm not good at, then I shouldn't let it faze me. It's not going to make me any better and I doubt I'll want to be any better at it anyway if I know I'm not good at it. If it's something I am good at, then it depends on the criticism. I know if I'm good at something I won't be perfect at it, but if I generally perform it well, a criticism here and there, and depending on the criticism itself, shouldn't be too much of a problem for me. and how do you know that you are good at it, is your field easily measurable? (mine isnt) Lucky for me the project got approved today. Not an easy process but it went through. Glad that it did as I was hanging by a thread...
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