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Post by troliusmaximus on Mar 30, 2017 16:12:11 GMT
This relates to a discussion topic I happened upon back at the old IMDb discussion forums a few years ago ― a thread that was then subsequently "purged" and which I then re-posted a time afterwards... before the website finally committed ritual suicide and the discussion was again lost to the ether. The topic concerned the oft deemed controversial third act of the film Sunshine (2007): the "Pinbacker" arc, specifically. Controversial, because it shifted the tone of the film dramatically, and thus led to a dichotomy of views regarding its effect on the quality of the overall film. That is to say, many thought this latter part of the film screwed the pooch... for the want of a more diplomatic expression. After watching the film for the first time, I (too) considered Boyle to have dropped the ball (somewhat) in the latter part of the film―by taking the easy, "slasher" way out. However, upon reading the thread I am alluding to (and will hereinafter offer a précis of), I realised the film was perhaps even deeper than I had first given it credit for being. As such, here are the various interpretations (as far as I can recall them) of what the "Pinbacker" scenes meant: Conventional take:Pinbacker was, simply, in fact, Pinbacker ― the captain of the previous, failed mission, and who had remained marooned on his craft until the "Icarus" arrived; after which, his PTSD-fuelled insanity was brought to bear on the hapless crew of the follow-up mission.(This is the most simplistic envisioning of the character and associated scenes, and which leaves many plot holes and loose ends ― examples: Where did his super-human strength come from―much less, in atrophying space? How did he survive for all that time, given the ship was dormant (oxygen, food, water?) and, particularly, in the physical ('burnt') state he was in...?)Metaphysical take:Pinbacker was the the Devil incarnate ― arriving at the precipice of the end of humanity, to claim victory over "God".(This view leads the film down a path it did not set the groundwork for ― a theological one ― and also demands many tenuous reconciliations. For example: the Devil himself stooping to stabbing mere people with scalpels (?!); the implication that Capa (Murphy's character), with his female cohort, effectively defeat the Devil ― a little more than a stretch, in the sci-fi context of the film. Conversely, a 'for' for this theory, could be the distorted vision we have of Pinbacker, wherever he's in shot or nearby ― and he's never actually depicted without this visual effect. This could have been Boyle's way of depicting 'the Devil's aura', if you like. Pinbacker's presence in the bomb bay after the craft separates, is self-explanatory, when using this theory.)The psychological take:The whole "Pinbacker episode" was a collective delusion that the entire crew suffered from and which Capa (together with his the last surviving female cohort) were the most capable of fighting off / controlling.(Here, the viewer must first reconcile an identical catatonia being shared between the crew, and then qualify the actions that took place as having been the doing of unidentified, individual crew members. Am argument buttressing this take on proceedings is that all members were in fact privy to the Pinbacker video message and that they were all exposed to the same environment ― think: 'space sickness'.) The psycho take:
Capa was Pinbacker. That is, Capa lost his mind and was struggling with said psychotic ambivalence, thus committed the violent acts he did; eventually overcoming his inner demons to complete the task.(Perhaps the most interesting theory, wherein we must accept that Capa was the actor in each of the violent episodes. The distorted film effect, referred to earlier, could be seen here as the director's technique for (i) concealing the identity of the assailant, and (ii) a tool to convey a kind of 'insanity vision' to the viewer. The fact that the narration of the film is made by Capa, may also lend weight to this contention; in that, it was the 'sane' Capa speaking to the audience ― with his insane alter ego running amok. The super-human feats could be interpreted as Capa's view, and metaphorical (i.e., he never actually lifts anyone using only one arm; the seeming inexplicability of Pinbacker appearing in the bomb bay at the end of the film, also makes sense if Capa himself is taken as being the former character.)
--- I found the discussions that ensued from the pertaining thread/s to be most thought-provoking. They also imbued a film I already held in high regard, with even more depth than I first perceived it to engender. As far as I can recall, the director of film, Danny Boyle, never elucidated the real meaning of the film's third act. I believe he was actually quizzed on the issue a few years after Sunshine's release, but that he either declined to answer or left it up to the viewer's to decide its meaning (*if anyone has information on this, please do share). So, I'll leave this here in case someone wants to mull over it or has a theory of their own to share.  |
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Post by kingkoopa on Mar 31, 2017 16:20:07 GMT
Great post about a great film.
I like slashers, and while I thought "Sunshine" had an unexpected ending, I walked away liking it. It's one of my favorite sci-fi films, and beautiful to look at (and listen to).
I think it's something between the "Metaphysical take" and the "Psycho take." I always thought there was some sort of connection (cerebral or supernatural) between Capa and Pinbacker. This got increasingly believable (particularly the metaphysical take) as they got closer to the sun and the scientist (I can't remember his name) who really liked looking at the sun gradually lost his mind.
I thought they were playing on the fact that humanity is completely reliant on the sun, but only at a certain distance. Nobody, excepting the the crew of the first mission, had been that close to the sun. The gravity and radiation alone could be ingredients for some unexpected psychosis or other effects. 'Space sickness' is a perfect label.
I don't know how much I can buy Pinbacker as the devil himself, but maybe a mental manifestation of the devil by Capa. It's hard to explain, but I do believe there is a lot of subtext about apocalyptic 'Revelation'-type stuff.
Now I gotta go watch it again.
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Post by troliusmaximus on Apr 6, 2017 12:24:32 GMT
maybe a mental manifestation of the devil by Capa Hmmm... In other words, you're suggesting that Capa was a) the sole instigator of all the tumult, and b) was also (or became) some Devil incarnate? (...due to being so close to the Sun or whatever). I've never thought of it like that before―as a combination of the aforecited theories. But, I guess, there is no real reason why it could not be a viable explanation. My only aversion to the theory (if I'm interpreting it correctly), is the "Devil" aspect of it ― as I'm not particularly amenable to the film becoming metaphysical (or theological); seeing as how well-rooted in science and pragmatism it was (up until that third act). On the other hand, explaining away the scene where Pinbacker lifts another person using only one arm ― together with his 'magical' [re]appearance in the detached section of the ship that housed the bomb ― is a little difficult to reconcile, without either dismissing it all as being presented from the perspective of Capa's 'psycho vision' ( i.e., he could just as likely have been seeing gay unicorns making love, it was potentially that nonsensical) or, indeed, as the Pinbacker element being 'diabolical' in some way. Frankly, it's difficult to nut out using only my memory of the film from years ago. So, like you, I think I'll re-watch the film by and by, and then return with newfound ruminations... I hope.  |
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Post by kingkoopa on Apr 8, 2017 5:52:10 GMT
maybe a mental manifestation of the devil by Capa Hmmm... In other words, you're suggesting that Capa was a) the sole instigator of all the tumult, and b) was also (or became) some Devil incarnate? (...due to being so close to the Sun or whatever). I've never thought of it like that before―as a combination of the aforecited theories. But, I guess, there is no real reason why it could not be a viable explanation. My only aversion to the theory (if I'm interpreting it correctly), is the "Devil" aspect of it ― as I'm not particularly amenable to the film becoming metaphysical (or theological); seeing as how well-rooted in science and pragmatism it was (up until that third act). On the other hand, explaining away the scene where Pinbacker lifts another person using only one arm ― together with his 'magical' [re]appearance in the detached section of the ship that housed the bomb ― is a little difficult to reconcile, without either dismissing it all as being presented from the perspective of Capa's 'psycho vision' ( i.e., he could just as likely have been seeing gay unicorns making love, it was potentially that nonsensical) or, indeed, as the Pinbacker element being 'diabolical' in some way. Frankly, it's difficult to nut out using only my memory of the film from years ago. So, like you, I think I'll re-watch the film by and by, and then return with newfound ruminations... I hope. Alright, I watched it again last night. Loved it again. This is the kind of movie that deserves a couple of viewings. That said, I'm still not sure what I think happened in the third act. Going forward, I'd like any readers to know that I don't intend to insult anyone of any kind of faith. And if you haven't seen the movie and are interested in it, don't read further, because I'd hate to spoil the surprises it has. I never really thought Pinbacker was the 'devil' in the theological sense, but more of an abstract interpretation. When you look at depictions of Hell and ideas of what the surface of the sun might be like, there are a few parallels one could draw. I think Pinbacker took on the role of guardian of the sun. The intoxicating worship of the sun was a theme with the Clif Curtis' "Searie." It seemed like the closer they got to the sun, the more the crew slipped out of reality. I felt a little bit of a Dante's "Divine Comedy" in the third act, combined with a psychological manifestation of Kapa's guilt about his life being prioritized over some of his crew mates...and also the responsibility he felt he had to the rest of humanity. Kapa watched a few of his crew mates die or sacrifice themselves so he could continue the mission. The manifestation of Pinbacker had a lot of self-guilt/doubt peppered in. I don't know if Pinbacker was actually physically there, but I feel like I understand the function he served to the narrative and to Kapa's motivations. Seems like the closer they got to the sun, the more everyone lost their minds. That kind of gravity has never been experienced by humans, and I'd have to think it has to have an effect on mental function...some stuff being real, some stuff not. Woo...love this movie...got my brain going turbo now. Please excuse me, there is a severely burned naked man growling at me in the other room.  |
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Post by xystophoros on Apr 19, 2017 0:48:20 GMT
I always thought it was strange that Danny Boyle got so much praise for 28 Days Later, and so much criticism for Sunshine, when both films devolve into slashers in their third act.
That was always my problem with 28 Days Later -- it was an excellent "zombie" movie right up until the last act, when Jim -- a docile bicycle messenger without any combat training or history of violence -- suddenly becomes a combination of Batman and Arnold Schwarzenegger in Predator. I could buy it if he was enraged at what the soldiers were doing to the women and he was able to free them through a combination of luck and surprise, but the film had Jim transform into some sort of slasher ninja instantly.
In that respect I think Sunshine is a lot less of a logical leap. I can believe that a guy survived on the other starship and had gone insane from isolation and radiation sickness. There might not have been enough oxygen and food for an entire crew to survive, but resources can stretch pretty far when there's only one mouth to feed, one nose breathing air, and an entire deck of the ship overgrown with forest.
Two things I always liked about Sunshine:
1) The contrast between Searle, the psychologist, and his selfless attitude vs the communications officer (whose name I forget), who let fear dictate his actions and wanted to guarantee his own safety.
2) The salty repair tech guy who had to submerge himself in coolant to prevent the ship from blowing. The actor did a great job almost making the audience feel how frigid that coolant was when he stuck his hand in the pool earlier in the movie to retrieve a wrench. When he actually had to submerge himself in it to make a repair toward the end, it was especially intense thanks to the way it was set up.
I'm also a big fan of Hiroyuki Sanada, and wish his character had lived longer.
And finally, what a waste of Benedict Wong, the guy who played Trey. If you've seen the series Marco Polo, in which Benedict Wong plays Kublai Khan, you know this dude can seriously act. It's hard to believe the same actor who played this nervous crew member in Sunshine is the same guy playing the powerful, commanding, ruthless Kublai Khan.
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Post by troliusmaximus on Apr 22, 2017 14:06:17 GMT
kingkoopa Okay. So, I watched it again and my I'm still not 100% settled on a 'what' Pinbacker explicitly was. Firstly, the deaths began before the "Icarus I" was boarded and / or Pinbacker was discovered sun-bathing in the tanning lounge. That is to say, not all the deaths were at the hand of another [corporeal] crew member (or Pinbacker) -- which may allude to either happenstance or the intervention of an 'invisible hand' into proceedings. Secondly, Cappa was locked in the decompression air lock while Pinny was running amok -- they even stared each other down (*though, this could have been a purely metaphorical scene... not sure). this suggests two antagonistic entities, with respect to said characters. In other words, it kind of eliminates that 'Cappa-backer' angle. Thirdly, I noticed Boyle made a point of highlighting the bloodied hand-print on the wall, which Cappa himself espied. This could qualify Pinbacker actually, physically entering the bomb section of the ship ( i.e., he didn't have to necessarily 'teleport' there after Cappa detaches the payload). He was chasing Cassie, after all, and she was there at the end also. Now, the curly ones are as follows: • How does Pinbacker survive so long, much less in the state he's in? (NB: I know the garden was flourishing, but that alone is somewhat of a tenuous explanation, given his state ― methinks they grew no Middle-earth "Kingsfoil weed" with their carrots!)• How does he enter the "Icarus II"? • How does he survive / thrive, in such harsh sunlight -- is he not blind? • Why does he seemingly distort the communique via which we're first introduced to him -and- any actual footage of him thereafter? • How does he gain super-human strength? • Why is he doing what he's doing? Without expatiating at essay length on all points of contention, I now feel Pinbacker is not the Devil incarnate per se. My guess would be that the film does in fact commingle science with theology, but that Pinbacker is just some "god bother" type that became afflicted with nihilistic delusions of grandeur ― due to the prospect of being, as he put it, " alone with God" ― but that he / it was not actually 'Satan' in possession of the erstwhile captain. The thing is, this still leaves his physical abilities to be reconciled ― either through insanity (insane people can often display inordinate strength ― even injuring themselves without realising it) or a deeper dive down the metaphysical rabbit hole. The latter, especially, because of his apparently parlous physical condition. Another thing that struck me was that Cappa and Cassie could, in a way, be viewed as the opposite ends of 'Adam and Eve'; with Pinbacker the... I dunno... 'Serpent'... manifesting as 'the Devil'...? To be honest, the third act is indeed confusing and I can appreciate why some rejected it as a 'slasher' cop-out. I just feel there is deeper meaning somewhere here, given the director involved and his body of work. xystophoros I still consider 28 Days Later (and the first 15~20 minutes of the sequel) as the best 'zombie' flicks I've seen. The atmosphere and filming techniques really conveyed the chaos of the situation; and violent 'shaky cam' that's rarely been done to better effect. I don't recall Murphy's character going full 'Rambo' at the end... though, I do remember that he gets shot in the gut and survives. However, a gunshot wound is well survivable, so my disbelief was easily suspended for that. I haven't seen the film in a while, but the blood dripping in the father's eye was a tad too obvious a plot device for mine (especially given he was the world-wary one of the bunch). However, I'll have to revisit the film in order to be more critical. Indeed, aren't there whispers of them making a second sequel to it ― '28 Months Later'...? Re. Sunshine:I did like how the 'engineer' character was portrayed and ultimately turned into one of the lead heroes of the piece and ― in hindsight ― the most prudent decision-maker of the bunch; despite his gruff, pragmatic exterior ( NB: Many, if not all of the deaths could have been avoided, had they not detoured their mission on a whim {a weakish MacGuffin, in retrospect}... assuming Pinbacker wasn't a literal Lucifer who could appear wherever, that is).
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Post by kingkoopa on Apr 24, 2017 11:52:31 GMT
troliusmaximus Glad to read your reply! There is so much to talk about in this movie. I was as on the fence about what Pinbacker was on this viewing as I was on my first time. I did come to the conclusion that there is either a supernatural element to Pinbacker, or by the third act we're seeing things less objectively and more through the eyes of a character. Like we're not totally seeing Pinbacker as he is, but through Cappa's eyes...I still don't know how much I can get on board with that, but given his state, I just don't see how he could have survived as long as he would have had to. I really like your Adam and Eve comparison! In that story (I don't mean to insult anyone of faith by referring to it as a story), the serpent is kind of the instrument of the devil. At times Pinbacker seems like he could be an instrument of the sun? Like the sun is defending itself by using him as a vessel? There isn't any real reason to believe this, but I was struck on my most recent viewing (like I was the first time) on how the sun is revered and almost worshiped. Most of the characters have at least a line or two that suggests this. People have been worshiping the sun since the beginning of time, and I wonder if the story was playing with that idea at times... This is a great movie. I too really enjoy Danny Boyle's body of work. Though I'm a horror fan, zombies have never really been my thing. "28 Days Later" is the exception for me...really liked it. If he can make me like zombie movies, he can count on me buying a ticket to pretty much anything he makes. Ultimately, I can understand the criticism "Sunshine's" third act gets, but if you can suspend your disbelief a bit, it is a lot of fun. This could be said for the whole movie as far as I'm concerned. It's beautifully shot, scored, and has a terrific premise. Glad I re-watched it...definitely will be again in the future.
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Post by troliusmaximus on May 14, 2017 10:39:37 GMT
People have been worshiping the sun since the beginning of time, and I wonder if the story was playing with that idea at times... Well, all religion stems from Sun worship. For sunshine(!) meant growth > life > verdance > food > animals > sustenance. Animism:  |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 7, 2017 1:54:02 GMT
I felt it fell apart somewhat, but I really need to see it again to do it justice.
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Post by troliusmaximus on Feb 8, 2023 9:17:39 GMT
This an old thread of mine, and sorry for necro'ing it... But, I've since seen the film again (more than once, perhaps), and I think I've settled in one of two theories:
Metaphysical: Pinbacker is the possessed captain of the failed Icarus-1 voyage, whom the Devil has taken control of -- for examples, because he was mentally frail, driven mad, or was morally (or spiritually) flawed. This take means that the "Pinbacker vision" used to display the character, was the "Devil's aura", and that all the incongruous stuff -- him being alive in the state he was; displaying superhuman feats of strength; kind of "teleporting" etc. -- are all explicable through "magic".
Psychological: Pinbacker was a surrogate for Capa's schizophrenic delusions, manifesting as his Jekyll and Hyde selves fight for supremacy. This version keeps the proceedings in the realms of science-fiction, as distinct from science fantasy. It also works in terms of character development, dovetailing with Capa being involved in many of the crucial beats in the film -- the adjudication on the death of Benedict Wong's character, Trey; the thread of conflict between Capa and Mace; the ultimate responsibility in having to set off the bomb.
Either of these interpretations, were either what Boyle actually envisioned, would be fine with me. Sure, the former "Devil" version might rub some the wrong way... However, it's hardly the first time science has been trod on in film by metaphysics. The latter take is the deeper, more "twist-y" interpretation, and probably the one I'd like to think was what happened. It means that the audience were mostly fooled by the "slasher" act; which makes the film that much more impactful... Kind of like the popular dismissal of the two Matrix sequels -- "Revolutions", particularly (the "Resurrections" pastiche can be ignored entirely) -- due to people failing to realise that the two films were actually filmed as one, and that it was only "split" in order to accommodate cinematic run time restrictions.
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Post by moviemouth on Feb 8, 2023 9:38:25 GMT
My issue wasn't with the writing as much as it is with the directing of the final act. While it is fascinating however you look at it from a writing standpoint, it comes off as very silly in the way it is depicted and put into the movie. It feels like it goes from a prestige sci-fi movie to a Hellraiser movie and they don't end up blending together. I will admit I didn't really "get it" though and don't really have much interest in re-watching the movie. You could say the movie became something I just didn't want.
Too bad, because I like the movie quite a bit up until the ending.
I have a similar issue with the ending of Dark City. It isn't the writing of the final act that bothers me, it is the directing. It is just a mess.
The issue with Matrix 3 is the movie spends too much time focusing on supporting characters I don't have any investment in and the action scenes are boring. I never cared much for the Zion scenes in the Matrix movies and Revolutions spends most of the movie there. I always knew the first and second movie were obviously one movie split into 2 movies.
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