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Post by rizdek on Jan 23, 2019 10:59:02 GMT
When you create the universe and every living thing in it, you get to make the rules, no? If you make beings with agency, I'm not sure I would agree that "you get to make the rules" from an ethical standpoint. At least those rules ought not to be arbitrary. Would that apply to parents who "make a baby?" Do you agree with the off handed declaration of Dr Cliff Huxtable in The Cosby Show when he says, "I brought you into the world, I can take you out of it"?
Another aspect of this is what are ethics and morals based on? What if the basis for ethics are actually above both the world, the people in it and the creator himself? It gets into aspects of the Euthyphro dilemma found in Plato's dialogue Euthyphro, in which Socrates asks Euthyphro, "Is the pious loved by the gods because it is pious, or is it pious because it is loved by the gods?" Another way of putting it is if God created the world and decided what is right or wrong for that world...ie got to "make the rules," does he have reasons for those rules or are the rules arbitrary and he could justifiably make them absolutely anything he wanted to? Could god make a bunch of rules, make a bunch of promises then not abide by those rules and renege on those promises and still be considered ethical? IF there are good reasons for why the "rules" are as they are, those reasons would seem to be above the creator and he must abide by them as well if he is to consider himself ethical, moral and just.
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Post by Rodney Farber on Jan 23, 2019 14:48:37 GMT
When you create the universe and every living thing in it, you get to make the rules, no? The Queen of Hearts, Hitler, Sadam Hussein, et all, told us exactly what would happen to us if we didn't kiss their respective asses. How do we know what Jehovah demands of us? All we have is pure conjecture based on a book of bronze age folklore. And why is Yahweh conveyed as a good guy if he's willing to torture us for trivial reasons. As for my claim that there are three billion people who have never heard of Jesus, that's 40% of the world population. When one considers all the Chinese, Indians, Mongolians, and children under five, etc., I don't think 40% is high at all. And what about all the children who starve to death before the age of three. They never put their faith in Jesus, but Lord let's 'em starve and then sends them to burn for all eternity.
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Post by general313 on Jan 23, 2019 15:46:33 GMT
That sounds like a trick question linked to the notion of free will. A "trick question" is usually something that is intentionally designed to throw someone else off, or trip them up in some way. To me this is actually an honest question, and a very important one that goes towards establishing whether or not the "believer" actually has a concept of morality that is independent from what their religion teaches, or reliant solely on what the religion teaches. It's also a rather damning question for any Christian, Muslim, or Jew because it puts them in the position of having to explain/defend potentially obvious immoral actions of God as "moral" (which they must in order to claim that God is moral). And that's why you tend to not get very many responses from theists whenever they are asked this question. Because they (well, the smart ones anyway) realize that any answer they give puts them in a very weak and potentially indefensible position on the topic of morality. OT: This is also one of the contributing factors of me becoming an atheist. I realized that I could no longer actually defend "God's morality" when I challenged myself to do so. Yes I agree, I was sort of joking around because I find some irony in how the question impinges on the free will question, which as we all know has been fiercely debated for centuries by theologians and philosophers.
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Post by The Herald Erjen on Jan 23, 2019 19:36:40 GMT
This is like an old song that everyone knows the words to but they keep playing it on the radio every day. Lacks originality. 4/10. Tops.
If you don't want to put your faith in Jesus, then don't. And quit troubling yourself over what others put their faith into. You'll live a happier life.
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Post by Feologild Oakes on Jan 23, 2019 19:43:58 GMT
What Christians tends to ignore.
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Post by heeeeey on Jan 23, 2019 19:54:07 GMT
That's what happens when you take the Bible literally in those passages.
Where did Jesus say that?
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Post by CoolJGS☺ on Jan 23, 2019 20:05:58 GMT
What Christians tends to ignore. Thats probably because it’s both inaccurate and irrelevant to choice which is what concerns Christianity. I wish people would stop insult entire regions of the planet. I know it’s done to pretend the person posting these things are smarter than the average bear but it’s still silly.
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Post by Feologild Oakes on Jan 23, 2019 20:25:39 GMT
What Christians tends to ignore. Thats probably because it’s both inaccurate and irrelevant to choice which is what concerns Christianity. I wish people would stop insult entire regions of the planet. I know it’s done to pretend the person posting these things are smarter than the average bear but it’s still silly. Yeah i think you know its not.
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Post by goz on Jan 24, 2019 1:54:38 GMT
Why do theophobiacs ask questions about topics that have everything to do with their assumptions instead of about Christianity? Betcha there's not an answer for that one is it? Yet, the answer to your question is ridiculously simple. There are as many versions of Christianity as there are Christians. Very few of them can agree, and those that do fall into certain groups ( often called denominations) which make certain 'pronouncements' called dogma or the WatchTower or whatever THEIR version thinks is the 'real deal'. Hence they are not 'assumptions make by 'theophobics' they are written dogma or religious speculation as to THEIR view of the TRUE MEANING of Christ and Christianity. Every Joe Blow Christian thinks he s right and/or follows what's called a 'denomination' who invent the basis for these 'assumptions' of which you speak. People with half a brain realise that they can't ALL be right!
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Post by CoolJGS☺ on Jan 24, 2019 3:04:50 GMT
Why do theophobiacs ask questions about topics that have everything to do with their assumptions instead of about Christianity? Betcha there's not an answer for that one is it? Yet, the answer to your question is ridiculously simple. There are as many versions of Christianity as there are Christians. Very few of them can agree, and those that do fall into certain groups ( often called denominations) which make certain 'pronouncements' called dogma or the WatchTower or whatever THEIR version thinks is the 'real deal'. Hence they are not 'assumptions make by 'theophobics' they are written dogma or religious speculation as to THEIR view of the TRUE MEANING of Christ and Christianity. Every Joe Blow Christian thinks he s right and/or follows what's called a 'denomination' who invent the basis for these 'assumptions' of which you speak. People with half a brain realise that they can't ALL be right! Again who is saying what the OP is stating? We know JW's aren't so not sure why you keep bringing them up unless you are willfully ignorant regarding their beliefs. How many times has the pope said the statement? Methodists? Mormons? What religion do you honestly know leads their belief system based on a threat? Anyone this side of the massive religious institution of Westboro Baptist? (That was sarcasm) Theophobiacs are full of crap and it's so pointless as to the reason why which we all know, including yourself, is just to hear yourselves talk. One of these days an intelligent one will come along and actually discuss something that's worthy of time rather than a waste of it. There's no need to respond since I know that it's going to be some version of "Derp! I don't understand! Derp!" I already know that.
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Post by goz on Jan 24, 2019 3:18:17 GMT
Yet, the answer to your question is ridiculously simple. There are as many versions of Christianity as there are Christians. Very few of them can agree, and those that do fall into certain groups ( often called denominations) which make certain 'pronouncements' called dogma or the WatchTower or whatever THEIR version thinks is the 'real deal'. Hence they are not 'assumptions make by 'theophobics' they are written dogma or religious speculation as to THEIR view of the TRUE MEANING of Christ and Christianity. Every Joe Blow Christian thinks he s right and/or follows what's called a 'denomination' who invent the basis for these 'assumptions' of which you speak. People with half a brain realise that they can't ALL be right! Again who is saying what the OP is stating? We know JW's aren't so not sure why you keep bringing them up unless you are willfully ignorant regarding their beliefs. How many times has the pope said the statement? Methodists? Mormons? What religion do you honestly know leads their belief system based on a threat? Anyone this side of the massive religious institution of Westboro Baptist? (That was sarcasm) Theophobiacs are full of crap and it's so pointless as to the reason why which we all know, including yourself, is just to hear yourselves talk. One of these days an intelligent one will come along and actually discuss something that's worthy of time rather than a waste of it. There's no need to respond since I know that it's going to be some version of "Derp! I don't understand! Derp!" I already know that. The OP is once again stating the old chestnut and bleeding obvious that, under most religions, Christianity in particular, have a logical fallacy to deal with when it comes to unbelievers. ALL of them! IF you make a pronouncement that you MUST believe in God to go to Heaven and if you don't you go to Hell, Christians have this HUGE problem of people who have never heard of Jesus or any of the other flummery . Frankly it doesn't make Christianity look too flash if they send ALL the 'innocents ( from babies to frail old people to those of other religions and those who have never heard 'the Word' ...to Hell. The problems are many and manifest. You are just blustering and being your usual mode of apologist and backing down on every detail which doesn't match YOUR version which, I might remind you is NOT Universal in Christianity. BTW I understand ONLY too well what you are doing here and it is disingenuous and nonsensical this time the same as the last time you said this shit!
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Post by Vegas on Jan 24, 2019 10:07:50 GMT
Why do Christians worship a God who tortures those that don't kiss his ass? Whatever happened to live-and-let-live?
Can't I just buy an indulgence?
And what about the 3 billion people on this earth who have never even heard of Jesus? Are they doomed to burn for all eternity just because they have never been told about Jesus?
So... According to your dumb ass, almost half of the world's population have never even heard of Jesus.... And.. Aren't you the same fucktard constantly complaining about why you don't understand the need for Christians to preach their message?? Damn, it's amazing how you can out fucking idiot yourself, fucking idiot.
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Post by Vegas on Jan 24, 2019 10:20:59 GMT
Why do theophobiacs ask questions about topics that have everything to do with their assumptions instead of about Christianity? Betcha there's not an answer for that one is it? Yet, the answer to your question is ridiculously simple. There are as many versions of Christianity as there are Christians. That's kinda his point, ain't it? Why get sooooo pissy about the one version of Christianity that the OP is using in his own head to justify his own argument? The OP is bitching about the one version of Christianity that he himself is choosing to bitch about because that's the version of Christianity that he chooses.
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Post by Vegas on Jan 24, 2019 16:25:26 GMT
HERE IS WHY THE OP IS A FUCKING IDIOT
This thread is a perfect example. This could have easily been a thread: "HELL: What's your view?" which would have opened up an honest exchange about the topic.. and he could have espoused his own ideas into an open forum. Hell... or even a little more blunt than that would be tolerable: "HELL: What A Stupid Concept" ... which would have opened a dialogue where most Christians on this board would actually agree with him. But, no... an open dialogue isn't the OP's MO. He just wants to say the dumbest shit in the most offensive way simply because he's a fucking idiot who jerks off to the notion of him pissing off Christians/Theists... ..which never really happens .. because most Christians don't fit into his dumbfuck characterizations.. so they don't get pissed... they just laugh at the dumbfuck for being such a dumbfuck.. Heck, he probably gets the opposite of his desired effect as most Christians who see his stupidity as stupidity get emboldened in their beliefs. He's a fucking idiot.
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Post by Rodney Farber on Jan 24, 2019 16:51:50 GMT
Why do Christians worship a God who tortures those that don't kiss his ass? Whatever happened to live-and-let-live?
Can't I just buy an indulgence?
And what about the 3 billion people on this earth who have never even heard of Jesus? Are they doomed to burn for all eternity just because they have never been told about Jesus?
So... According to your dumb ass, almost half of the world's population have never even heard of Jesus.... And.. Aren't you the same fucktard constantly complaining about why you don't understand the need for Christians to preach their message?? Damn, it's amazing how you can out fucking idiot yourself, fucking idiot. According to three web sites, there are 2.1 billion or 2.3 billion or 2.4 billion Christians out of 7.5 billion people in this solar system. Can you subtract? That means that at least five billion people are NOT Christians. Then let's add the "Christians" who are under five year old who don't know anything about Jesus yet, and I think that pretty much demonstrates my point.
If Christianity was the one true religion, then the Hindus, Muslims, and Buddhists would be erecting crosses in front of their place of worship without any cajoling. There would not be a need to manipulate with great perseverance and usually with considerable effort towards the desired goal of making others "see the light".
I find it astounding how often you need to use the "F" word with all your holier-than-thou insults.
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Post by Vegas on Jan 24, 2019 17:11:21 GMT
So... According to your dumb ass, almost half of the world's population have never even heard of Jesus.... And.. Aren't you the same fucktard constantly complaining about why you don't understand the need for Christians to preach their message?? Damn, it's amazing how you can out fucking idiot yourself, fucking idiot. According to three web sites, there are 2.1 billion or 2.3 billion or 2.4 billion Christians out of 7.5 billion people in this solar system. Can you subtract? That means that at least five billion people are NOT Christians. Then let's add the "Christians" who are under five year old who don't know anything about Jesus yet, and I think that pretty much demonstrates my point.
If Christianity was the one true religion, then the Hindus, Muslims, and Buddhists would be erecting crosses in front of their place of worship without any cajoling. There would not be a need to manipulate with great perseverance and usually with considerable effort towards the desired goal of making others "see the light".
I find it astounding how often you need to use the "F" word with all your holier-than-thou insults.
1) I don't claim to be holier than anybody... 2) Then use your own fucking math, stupid... That would mean that there are about just as many Muslims in the world... What? You've never hear of Mohammed.. or Allah? And your stipulation wasn't "believe in".. It was "never even heard of"... Edit:3) And your point is still fucking pointless as it's based solely on your dumbfuck version of Christianity. @ Thinking that Christians believe that their young children burn in Hell because they died young. You are a fucking idiot.
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Post by gadreel on Jan 24, 2019 18:16:57 GMT
Even if there are 2 people on earth who have never heard of Christ, them being sent to Hell for eternity is indication that God is not just. Whats unjust? That they get sent to hell? Or that it’s for eternity? Or both? Either. It is not just to be punished for something you have never been aware you were not supposed to do.
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Post by gadreel on Jan 24, 2019 18:19:18 GMT
Even if there are 2 people on earth who have never heard of Christ, them being sent to Hell for eternity is indication that God is not just. We know due to recent events that there's a whole island full of people who have never heard of christ. Remember the idiot who got himself killed trying to change that situation? This was what drove the missionary thing, actually. It's unfair that people go to hell when they didn't get the chance to accept christ, so the christian solution was to try and make sure that everyone had that chance. But of course the world was too big for that to work. Hence the idea that "The heavens declare the glory of God; the skies proclaim the work of his hands. Day after day they pour forth speech; night after night they display knowledge." So the claim is that everyone can see there's a god, so if they don't accept him that's their lookout. How is that the claim, we know for a fact that some people never hear about Christianity, and we know as well that far more people are never exposed to Christianity further than knowing it exists. (by which I mean I have heard of Taoism, but know so little about it that to judge me on my not converting to it is rather unjust). Interpretation of the feeling I get from looking at the sky is hardly an introduction to any particular religion.
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Post by CoolJGS☺ on Jan 24, 2019 19:14:15 GMT
We know due to recent events that there's a whole island full of people who have never heard of christ. Remember the idiot who got himself killed trying to change that situation? This was what drove the missionary thing, actually. It's unfair that people go to hell when they didn't get the chance to accept christ, so the christian solution was to try and make sure that everyone had that chance. But of course the world was too big for that to work. Hence the idea that "The heavens declare the glory of God; the skies proclaim the work of his hands. Day after day they pour forth speech; night after night they display knowledge." So the claim is that everyone can see there's a god, so if they don't accept him that's their lookout. How is that the claim, we know for a fact that some people never hear about Christianity, and we know as well that far more people are never exposed to Christianity further than knowing it exists. (by which I mean I have heard of Taoism, but know so little about it that to judge me on my not converting to it is rather unjust). Interpretation of the feeling I get from looking at the sky is hardly an introduction to any particular religion. I'm confused. Are you saying you don't have the ability to learn about taoism?
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Post by CoolJGS☺ on Jan 24, 2019 19:17:54 GMT
So... According to your dumb ass, almost half of the world's population have never even heard of Jesus.... And.. Aren't you the same fucktard constantly complaining about why you don't understand the need for Christians to preach their message?? Damn, it's amazing how you can out fucking idiot yourself, fucking idiot. According to three web sites, there are 2.1 billion or 2.3 billion or 2.4 billion Christians out of 7.5 billion people in this solar system. Can you subtract? That means that at least five billion people are NOT Christians. Then let's add the "Christians" who are under five year old who don't know anything about Jesus yet, and I think that pretty much demonstrates my point.
If Christianity was the one true religion, then the Hindus, Muslims, and Buddhists would be erecting crosses in front of their place of worship without any cajoling. There would not be a need to manipulate with great perseverance and usually with considerable effort towards the desired goal of making others "see the light".
I find it astounding how often you need to use the "F" word with all your holier-than-thou insults.
Why do people who claim the rational high ground keep saying ridiculously irrational things like this?
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