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Post by PreachCaleb on May 8, 2017 15:38:23 GMT
That's exactly the point. It's justifying her actions. Using suicide to point out other people's faults is incredibly superficial and dangerous. Particularly to young teens. So, yes, in this case, it is very wrong.
Because they're not concerned with the story. They're concerned with how the story portrays real world problems and how it could potentially affect people with mental health issues.
Which is also a big problem with the show. It highlights that bullying was the cause of Hannah's suicide, yet most suicidal victims have some underlying mental or emotional health problem.
Again, these aren't the opinions of critics. They are the opinions of people who have dedicated their lives to mental health and suicide prevention. There really is no reason to disagree with them. It'd be like disagree with the scientists who point out all the flawed science in action movies.
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Post by CoolJGS☺ on May 8, 2017 15:40:11 GMT
American Crime's second season handled the subject more realistically too, but again, the main thing is the entertainment value. My issues are not with realism im not a realistic snob lol but it's with the peace of the show it promised at the beginning a great mystery and it didn't deliver well I am not necessarily for realism either, but based on the topic and the notion that 13 Reasons Why is realistic, American Crime is better on that angle.
I'm just saying I would not like 13 Reasons Why nearly as much if it were trying to be realistic based on a pretty unrealistic story.
For entertainment purposes, I think it was serviceable as a TV mystery and especially since we got to witness the crimes which to me were pretty powerful.
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Post by CoolJGS☺ on May 8, 2017 15:51:00 GMT
PreachCalebIt's not justifying actions to explain the behavior that led her to it. You can test this out because the story could have been done without the suicide and the people would have still been wrong. It's just in this story, Hannah's decision was wrong too and the show made that very clear as we both appear to agree on. Otherwise it makes little sense to criticize a show for pretending something that could happen shouldn't have happened. If you are being clinical about the story, you must concern yourself with the story. Otherwise, you are operating in a vacuum of your own analysis. I disagree. I think the show, after episode 7 or 8 at least, makes it very clear that Hannah has got issues...big issues. The show explains what happens when people with mental issues don't get the help they need. I counted at least 4 instances in the last four episodes where Hannah admitted to having a problem, seeking the help in the weird way mentally ill people often do, and not getting it for one reason or another. Which is fine. However, if all they can do is what they are experts in, then they may not be best suited for something they are good in - Watching TV dramas. It all goes back to what they think should happen vs. what could happen vs. what's entertaining. They don't have to balance those things, but the producers and writers of the show/book do.
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Post by DSDSquared on May 8, 2017 16:02:32 GMT
But PreachCaleb is 100% correct in everything he said. The show does not glorify suicide, but I can easily see why experts have a problem with it. It is perfect revenge fantasy and justifies her suicide. She wanted to be noticed and wanted the people who hurt her to hurt like she hurt. That is a real reason people do things like this and it worked in Hannah's case. Everyone paid attention to what she had to say and they all felt like crap for the things they did. The show shows that Hannah basically got what she wanted by killing herself, which is a terrible message. Sure, they made it out to be the terrible tragedy it is and everyone kept saying she made a mistake, but the actual show portrayed it as her getting everything a suicide victim would want.
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Post by CoolJGS☺ on May 8, 2017 19:32:55 GMT
But PreachCaleb is 100% correct in everything he said. The show does not glorify suicide, but I can easily see why experts have a problem with it. It is perfect revenge fantasy and justifies her suicide. DSDSquared
What I'm saying is it is not our problem that experts have a problem with it because they are not watching it for the same reasons the majority of the audience are. the show is not realistic and it will be even less so in the second season.
Most people are not watching this to be educated on the accuracy of suicide prevention. We watch it because we enjoy it. Otherwise we would be watching a bunch of better options.
I disagree that this is Hannah's goal. Hannah's goal, oft repeated, was to escape what she was feeling and to explain how she got there which involved the actions of others as well as her own. The tapes were not so much about revenge as they were a list of failings by her, her peers, and her authority figures. Which means it's glorifying suicide which is what I've been disagreeing with. She got NOTHING from committing suicide. Further, because she gave strict instructions to Tony and the others to not tell anyone, no one even learned from their failings which means she had no particular endgame for those characters beyond what was stated in the tapes. All she got was dead. The most obvious problem with this line of reasoning is that very few people have ever committed suicide that was like Hannah or committed suicide as a result of the things Hannah went through, or was involved in as contrived a cover-up as the people on the tape. The show was built for dram, but rather than a murder mystery, it was simply switched to a suicide. This is why what the experts think is moot. Whether the producers intended for there to be a message or not is irrelevant. The plot, not the psychology, dictate what happens in the show/book. However, I still maintain that the show in no way glorifies suicide or, since people hate using that phrase, portrays it as a right thing to do. There is no doubt it was the wrong thing to do within the show although I have admitted that it may have taken a but too long to get to that point since the mystery was paramount as it is in most mysteries.
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Post by PreachCaleb on May 8, 2017 19:54:17 GMT
Explaining is trying to justify. Essentially, the message is "If people pick on you and make your life hard, kill yourself if you want to teach them a lesson."
Incorrect. They are not analyzing plot, story structure, or character development. That's not their area of expertise. Which is why they've mentioned nothing about that. You don't need to worry about a "story" if your problems are with a different element. As I said, an astronomer need not concern himself with the story of Armageddon to point out all the science it messed up.
It's the same concept. A mental health expert doesn't have to worry about the story to see the flaws in how the show addresses teen suicide.
Hanna specifically says that the people on her tapes are the cause of her suicide. In the end, the show demonstrates the only way she could get the attention she needed was to kill herself. Only then did people actually listen. This is a terrible message to send out to impressionable teens.
They're not judging on entertainment. That's not their concern. Mental health and suicide prevention are far more crucial to address than the entertainment of a Netflix show.
It's not about what they think "should happen." It's about what they know is a dangerous and faulty message to send out.
All the more pity. Especially since all the behind the scenes creators think there's a great message for everybody to watch.
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Post by CoolJGS☺ on May 8, 2017 20:30:23 GMT
PreachCalebif this statement were accurate, it would be impossible to explain anything. I know that's the problem. They can't pretend the dilemma is operating outside of the story. This is a great example of why the experts opinion doesn't matter when addressing a topic as if it is there to promote science. It's not just Armageddon, but every sci-fi movie every made is patently absurd. The point is it doesn't matter because sci-fi is for entertainment purposes. Now understanding story development and all is hard enough, as evidenced by the notion that a key plot point of this show is incorrectly thinking it's saying suicide is awesome and meant to stick it to the bully, without someone analyzing the story without benefit of the story. When they come up with a case study that has a ridiculously preconscious girl with talent enough to write her own eulogy on tape and snooker people into following what she says on that tape despite having near perfect parents and a near perfect friend like Cay, then I'll consider their judgment. Otherwise, I don't think a person like Hannah even exists enough for someone to compare themselves to. Why? Because she is fictional and you can't do psychoanalysis on a fictional character. This is why knowing the story is so important and, on that note, I will happily challenge anyone who continues to come up with this notion that it promotes suicide. Right now, it's largely a case of people saying the show promotes suicide on the basis of people that aren't actually analyzing the show. Again, this is not true. the show demonstrates that the only way she thinks she can be free from her own demons is to kill herself since no one could help her escape and especially since she could never fully explain what she was going through. There's plenty of ways to tackle the subject of suicide without the need of going to a TV show. However, if the producers think there is a message to be had, are they saying the message is about revenge or glorifying suicide? If not, then how can the experts say that what the show is really about in defiance of the producer's intent?
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Post by PreachCaleb on May 8, 2017 20:57:50 GMT
It's very accurate. She wanted everybody on her tapes to know they were responsible for her suicide and to feel bad about it. She got what she wanted. The message is simple: suicide teaches your tormentors a lesson.
Incorrect. They're discussing how this movie's message could affect people in the real world. The fictional characters are irrelevant. It's about what an audience sees.
Which is fine. You can argue against whether something is entertaining or not. What you can't argue is that the experts are wrong. That is the point. That's why they're experts.
Incorrect. It's a case of experts on mental health and suicide prevention who say this. They know what they're talking about. It's why they're experts in their field.
Which is also a terrible message. Suicide frees people from their demons. Since again, she gets what she wanted. To point the finger at people and tell them it's their fault.
I'm sure there were people who didn't think someone could compare themselves to Travis Bickle either. That's not the problem experts have.
Experts know suicidal ideation isn't limited to some fastidious comparison to one solitary character. People don't need to be exactly like Hannah to believe they can teach others a lesson by killing themselves. It's not about being exactly like Hannah. It's about seeing her accomplish her goals through suicide. That's the real issue.
Yes, there are other ways. That's not the point here.
The producers think it's a message about the tragedy of suicide. Yet, they misjudged what the actual story depicts. Which is that suicide is the right way to get people to listen to you.
And intent doesn't matter if the execution is wrong. I can intend to draw a horse, but if comes out looking like a dog, intention doesn't matter as animal experts and audiences will say it's clearly a dog, despite intent.
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Post by CoolJGS☺ on May 9, 2017 15:31:58 GMT
PreachCalebThis argument has become repetitive so without new material, I'll just repeat my points one last time, hopefully in different ways. It doesn't do this. There is nothing on those tapes that indicate revenge is the goal. If that were the case, then why even have Clay on tape. Why apologize to Jessica? Why would she confess her own mistakes. So yes, the people in part are the reason why, but only from the standpoint of the narrative. She can't leave them out because they are involved. However, there is nothing to indicate that she was sticking it to them. I'm not challenging the notion of what could happen, only the notion that the point of the show would cause certain damage and especially when it is based on a misguided view of the story. I can argue all day long with experts who are telling me how to interpret a story they don't understand. That is not their field of expertise. Further, there's a good chance that there is an expert or to that disputes what the experts you agree with say. So experts can certainly be wrong since experts can disagree with each other. That's not a message. It just is per the story. Suicide sucks, the show makes this plain and clear, & the only ones who would think otherwise are ones who think suicide shouldn't be discussed at all. You are taking the suicide and dismissing everything else pertaining top the series which is a horrible way to enjoy a show. Maybe you didn't. This is just another argument for not discussing suicide at all since no one knows what inspires them. The fact is the person would need to be very similar to Hannah and the situation would have to play out very similar to Hannah's in order for there to be a detailed consensus on the harm this show causes. They can't be misjudging it if experts, who you say aren't wrong, say their intent was to justify suicide all along. Not only must one side be wrong, the experts have to be mind readers. The suicide was executed just fine. If people saw Hannah slitting her wrists and thought about how cool that was, they were on the edge already and the people around them failed to see it. Again, we will see if some kind of herd mentality occurs as a result of the show and it's intended audience.
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Post by oocathrynoo on May 21, 2017 3:55:12 GMT
^I agree with you, CoolJGS.
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prolelol
Sophomore
I love movies, especially drama and horror movies! And also, I'm a big fan of TV shows.
@prolelol
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Post by prolelol on May 21, 2017 9:53:00 GMT
10/10 - What a depressing show, but absolutely brilliant teen show. Acting is very good! The actress who played Hannah has one of the prettiest faces (cause she's Australian). This gif got me, such very emotional scene and this has been one of the best scenes of the show.
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