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Post by coldenhaulfield on Mar 10, 2019 16:05:40 GMT
Alright, my bad. Just read it as a synonym for "changed after the fact" and use that to inform your opinion. You don't have to agree with it! I just think the point deserves to be discussed rather than the dude's choice of words, which were correct anyway. What was he correct about? He said the reason it’s a retconned is because adding a super strong superhero previous to the Avengers was a retcon, when nothing in the movies implies she couldn’t have existed previously, like Pym Ant-Man. In fact, in the first Iron Man Fury tells Tony he’s not the first Superhero. You're still not even discussing the point at hand. Go waste someone else's time with these "retcon" ramblings, and get back on topic. Now, we all know Captain Marvel is awful and will ruin everything. ETA: But how badly?
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Post by Rey Kahuka on Mar 10, 2019 16:33:08 GMT
I agree with this 100%...if this is what they end up doing. But Fiege and the Russos aren't going to do this. They've been building this story for years now, there's just no way they throw out the incredible storytelling that got them here and just have CM swoop in and save the day. This guy is operating under the assumption that CM is going to go toe to toe with Thanos alone and wipe the floor with him like Superman with Steppenwolf in JL. I'll be shocked, shocked if they do that. And I'll be right there picketing with you if that's the route they take. I've never liked the retconning aspect with this character. It's just the MCU making up for the fact that she should've been here all along, but it's still weak storytelling; especially once the pager was introduced. Fury wouldn't have called her during Avengers 1 & 2? I can get past that stuff but I still have to acknowledge it's weak writing. Even then, it only truly cheapens the MCU if they use Carol as a one (wo)man wrecking crew that solves the universal threat by herself. And nothing in the history of the MCU suggests that's how they'd handle it. Thor is literally deus ex machina with Stormbreaker in IW and even he didn't stop Thanos. Marvel knows better. Great perspective. Thanks. Do you foresee any gray area, in which CM is perhaps more personally responsible for Thanos's downfall than you would've liked her to be while not ultimately going "full JLA"? Or you think it's pretty cut and dried, and they'll either use her well and in a way that complements the preexisting characters or they won't? I think she could end up being more essential to the resolution of the plot only because it seems her powers are derived from the tesseract. (At least, they're derived from that power core she destroyed which was in turn connected to the tesseract.) So there could be something to that in regards to a back door past his defenses or something. I'd be ok with that if it's cleverly done. Like I said, I don't want her flying through his forcefield or whatever and just throwing him around. And again, it can't be her alone. She can be instrumental to defeating Thanos, but the rest of the team has to be involved as well.
Spoilers ahead: I liked her movie a lot (and in the interest of full disclosure, I'm biased because I like the character to begin with) but I feel like she didn't go through enough to get her where she is. Thor and Iron Man for example are incredibly powerful in IW but they've had multiple films and failures to even their story out. Carol didn't lose any loved ones, didn't get seriously injured, nothing. She got brainwashed and kidnapped, but she got her life back. Bruce, Tony, Cap, Thor, they all had to suffer for their gains. Carol is pretty much handed A-list super powers and all she did was blow up a hyperdrive or whatever. There's no real downside to her journey. I thought they did a great job with bringing her personality to the screen but there isn't enough yet to make her alleged place at the front of the MCU feel earned. Maybe that happens in Endgame, we'll have to wait and see.
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Marendil
Sophomore
@marendil
Posts: 750
Likes: 301
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Post by Marendil on Mar 10, 2019 22:34:25 GMT
Great perspective. Thanks. Do you foresee any gray area, in which CM is perhaps more personally responsible for Thanos's downfall than you would've liked her to be while not ultimately going "full JLA"? Or you think it's pretty cut and dried, and they'll either use her well and in a way that complements the preexisting characters or they won't? I think she could end up being more essential to the resolution of the plot only because it seems her powers are derived from the tesseract. (At least, they're derived from that power core she destroyed which was in turn connected to the tesseract.) So there could be something to that in regards to a back door past his defenses or something. I'd be ok with that if it's cleverly done. Like I said, I don't want her flying through his forcefield or whatever and just throwing him around. And again, it can't be her alone. She can be instrumental to defeating Thanos, but the rest of the team has to be involved as well.
Spoilers ahead: I liked her movie a lot (and in the interest of full disclosure, I'm biased because I like the character to begin with) but I feel like she didn't go through enough to get her where she is. Thor and Iron Man for example are incredibly powerful in IW but they've had multiple films and failures to even their story out. Carol didn't lose any loved ones, didn't get seriously injured, nothing. She got brainwashed and kidnapped, but she got her life back. Bruce, Tony, Cap, Thor, they all had to suffer for their gains. Carol is pretty much handed A-list super powers and all she did was blow up a hyperdrive or whatever. There's no real downside to her journey. I thought they did a great job with bringing her personality to the screen but there isn't enough yet to make her alleged place at the front of the MCU feel earned. Maybe that happens in Endgame, we'll have to wait and see.
Good post. I just came across a quote from Feige where he said CM was the most powerful MCU hero and I was non-plussed. For one thing she didn't look like it in this movie, there was just no other real superbeings opposing her, just Kree and Skrulls which we know unpowered humans can deal with from this movie and Agents of Shield. I wonder if he meant that now she was the most powerful, as since she's spent a quarter century in space presumably having adventures and perhaps fighting an interstellar war. As I recall, Carol Danvers wasn't all that powerful in the beginning, being power-sucked by Rogue back to peak un-powered human status, but then becoming Binary when the X-Men were out in space fighting the Brood, a huge power-up. Perhaps they have something similar planned here and being instrumental in defeating Thanos a way of showing what she's become and 'earning' her status as the mightiest hero. He shouldn't have said that though, it just makes her stories harder to write and takes the fun out of the Hot Stove League arguments that make this genre more fun to follow.
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Post by merh on Mar 10, 2019 23:26:59 GMT
From Reddit: Captain Marvel was originally panned by many people after the first trailer dropped and it appeared that her performance was wooden and fairly emotionless. The real “backlash” arose when Brie Larson called out white men who review her movies while Disney was simultaneously pushing this movie as a “Girl Power” flick.She smiled & joked a lot in the movie. A 30 to 60 second commecial hardly counts as the whole movie. They apparently lacked faith in Widow as anything other than a sidekick [/i] Dude makes a ton of great points. What say you guys?[/quote] No.
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Post by coldenhaulfield on Mar 10, 2019 23:54:16 GMT
Well, that means less than a fart in the wind, "no." You haven't offered any counterpoints.
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Post by Rey Kahuka on Mar 11, 2019 0:10:37 GMT
I think she could end up being more essential to the resolution of the plot only because it seems her powers are derived from the tesseract. (At least, they're derived from that power core she destroyed which was in turn connected to the tesseract.) So there could be something to that in regards to a back door past his defenses or something. I'd be ok with that if it's cleverly done. Like I said, I don't want her flying through his forcefield or whatever and just throwing him around. And again, it can't be her alone. She can be instrumental to defeating Thanos, but the rest of the team has to be involved as well.
Spoilers ahead: I liked her movie a lot (and in the interest of full disclosure, I'm biased because I like the character to begin with) but I feel like she didn't go through enough to get her where she is. Thor and Iron Man for example are incredibly powerful in IW but they've had multiple films and failures to even their story out. Carol didn't lose any loved ones, didn't get seriously injured, nothing. She got brainwashed and kidnapped, but she got her life back. Bruce, Tony, Cap, Thor, they all had to suffer for their gains. Carol is pretty much handed A-list super powers and all she did was blow up a hyperdrive or whatever. There's no real downside to her journey. I thought they did a great job with bringing her personality to the screen but there isn't enough yet to make her alleged place at the front of the MCU feel earned. Maybe that happens in Endgame, we'll have to wait and see.
Good post. I just came across a quote from Feige where he said CM was the most powerful MCU hero and I was non-plussed. For one thing she didn't look like it in this movie, there was just no other real superbeings opposing her, just Kree and Skrulls which we know unpowered humans can deal with from this movie and Agents of Shield. I wonder if he meant that now she was the most powerful, as since she's spent a quarter century in space presumably having adventures and perhaps fighting an interstellar war. As I recall, Carol Danvers wasn't all that powerful in the beginning, being power-sucked by Rogue back to peak un-powered human status, but then becoming Binary when the X-Men were out in space fighting the Brood, a huge power-up. Perhaps they have something similar planned here and being instrumental in defeating Thanos a way of showing what she's become and 'earning' her status as the mightiest hero. He shouldn't have said that though, it just makes her stories harder to write and takes the fun out of the Hot Stove League arguments that make this genre more fun to follow. Yeah, my thoughts exactly on those comments. There doesn't need to be a definitive 'most powerful' character, let the fans debate that for fun. And you're putting unnecessary pressure on the character and whoever writes them when you make bold statements like that.
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Post by RedDeadFallout on Mar 11, 2019 0:37:07 GMT
From Reddit: Captain Marvel was originally panned by many people after the first trailer dropped and it appeared that her performance was wooden and fairly emotionless. The real “backlash” arose when Brie Larson called out white men who review her movies while Disney was simultaneously pushing this movie as a “Girl Power” flick.
Now, my own personal feelings on this entire situation is that Captain Marvel was brought into the MCU as an answer to Disney’s 2016 problem: Wonder Woman. Disney execs asked themselves who they could pull out of the comics to go up against WW and get some of that female market share.
However, rumors suggest (rumors I should stress), that the Russo Brothers were not keen on shoehorning Captain Marvel into IFW at Disney’s request, because she was not a part of the first generation of super heroes storyline, which was ultimately culminating with the Thanos arch.
However, Disney needed to introduce her as the new MCU lead, so they had to put her in front of as many eyes as possible. And since it appears Iron Man and Captain America are going to be leaving the MCU after Endgame, this made the most sense to Disney. Kevin Feige haw also confirmed that Captain Marvel is the most powerful superhero introduced to date in the MCU.
Now going back to my issue with this whole thing. I think that introducing her into the final battle with Thanos as the Ex Machina powerhouse hero completely overshadows the other characters (who have arguably earned their place in the MCU) cheapens 10 years worth of buildup in the franchise.
Disney/Marvel basically retconned the entire MCU Avengers storyline one month before the final battle by saying that there was always a super powerful heavy Avenger (who you never heard of before you got her hastily put together origins story one month before Endgame) who is going to fly in and help defeat Thanos, or possibly do it all on her own.
It cheapens the MCU by retconning the history of the Avengers and by overshadowing the current lineup in favor of an obviously last minute addition to the storyline. Add to the fact that Disney was pushing this whole “Girl Power” angle for marketing purposes, when Black Widow, in my opinion, already represented strong female power in the MCU.
This entire Captain Marvel thing feels ham fisted, artificial, and reeks of studio meddling due to their reaction to Wonder Woman.Dude makes a ton of great points. What say you guys? The reason no one seems to respond the way you want it's because the post is fucking ridiculous and it's hilarious to respond in other ways. So now you don't have to take it so seriously.
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Post by coldenhaulfield on Mar 11, 2019 0:44:14 GMT
From Reddit: Captain Marvel was originally panned by many people after the first trailer dropped and it appeared that her performance was wooden and fairly emotionless. The real “backlash” arose when Brie Larson called out white men who review her movies while Disney was simultaneously pushing this movie as a “Girl Power” flick.
Now, my own personal feelings on this entire situation is that Captain Marvel was brought into the MCU as an answer to Disney’s 2016 problem: Wonder Woman. Disney execs asked themselves who they could pull out of the comics to go up against WW and get some of that female market share.
However, rumors suggest (rumors I should stress), that the Russo Brothers were not keen on shoehorning Captain Marvel into IFW at Disney’s request, because she was not a part of the first generation of super heroes storyline, which was ultimately culminating with the Thanos arch.
However, Disney needed to introduce her as the new MCU lead, so they had to put her in front of as many eyes as possible. And since it appears Iron Man and Captain America are going to be leaving the MCU after Endgame, this made the most sense to Disney. Kevin Feige haw also confirmed that Captain Marvel is the most powerful superhero introduced to date in the MCU.
Now going back to my issue with this whole thing. I think that introducing her into the final battle with Thanos as the Ex Machina powerhouse hero completely overshadows the other characters (who have arguably earned their place in the MCU) cheapens 10 years worth of buildup in the franchise.
Disney/Marvel basically retconned the entire MCU Avengers storyline one month before the final battle by saying that there was always a super powerful heavy Avenger (who you never heard of before you got her hastily put together origins story one month before Endgame) who is going to fly in and help defeat Thanos, or possibly do it all on her own.
It cheapens the MCU by retconning the history of the Avengers and by overshadowing the current lineup in favor of an obviously last minute addition to the storyline. Add to the fact that Disney was pushing this whole “Girl Power” angle for marketing purposes, when Black Widow, in my opinion, already represented strong female power in the MCU.
This entire Captain Marvel thing feels ham fisted, artificial, and reeks of studio meddling due to their reaction to Wonder Woman.Dude makes a ton of great points. What say you guys? The reason no one seems to respond the way you want it's because the post is fucking ridiculous and it's hilarious to respond in other ways. So now you don't have to take it so seriously. Nah, you just can't refute the dude's argument.
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Post by taylorfirst1 on Mar 11, 2019 3:38:49 GMT
I'd say Captain Marvel enriches the MCU.
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Post by coldenhaulfield on Mar 11, 2019 4:24:31 GMT
I'd say Captain Marvel enriches the MCU. Yeah, but that's only because you've seen it. As someone who hasn't but just thinks Brie Larson is a mean bitch, I say Captain Marvel prolly cheapens it. I think people can decide for themselves whose opinion to believe.
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Post by merh on Mar 11, 2019 4:37:25 GMT
Well, that means less than a fart in the wind, "no." You haven't offered any counterpoints. Oooo Comments. You ignored/skipped. Widow is a bit more problematic than Marvel because she is a more typical female hero created by guys to be a male fantasy When I read her in her earlier version she was a Russian knockoff of Cap, their attempt at the super soldier. It's easier to fix Ms Marvel than Widow
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Post by coldenhaulfield on Mar 11, 2019 4:44:45 GMT
Well, that means less than a fart in the wind, "no." You haven't offered any counterpoints. Oooo Comments. You ignored/skipped. Widow is a bit more problematic than Marvel because she is a more typical female hero created by guys to be a male fantasy When I read her in her earlier version she was a Russian knockoff of Cap, their attempt at the super soldier. It's easier to fix Ms Marvel than Widow Why do you categorically hate Russians? I don't follow.
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Marendil
Sophomore
@marendil
Posts: 750
Likes: 301
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Post by Marendil on Mar 11, 2019 4:50:35 GMT
What makes you think that and why would it be problematic if it were so in a genre whose raison d'etre is catering to fantasies?
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Post by poutinep on Mar 11, 2019 5:06:10 GMT
I say it's pathetic that you scour reddit for lame ways to insult Captain Marvel.
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Post by RedDeadFallout on Mar 11, 2019 7:54:06 GMT
The reason no one seems to respond the way you want it's because the post is fucking ridiculous and it's hilarious to respond in other ways. So now you don't have to take it so seriously. Nah, you just can't refute the dude's argument. Why would I? It's hilarious.
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