Marendil
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Post by Marendil on Mar 12, 2019 16:54:21 GMT
Black Widow and Catwoman (TDKR) have almost no character development. Gamora has a bit but it's handled pretty weak. Elektra (Garner) has better character development than those 3 despite being part of some crappy movies. My list would be: 1. Wonder Woman 2. Catwoman (Batman Returns) 3. Captain Marvel 4. Mystique (Jlaw) 5. Scarlet Witch How are you defining character development? What you said makes utterly no sense to me. If you said you didn't like the direction they developed her I could understand it, but by the common definition claiming she's had "almost no character development" is not even wrong.
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Post by Skaathar on Mar 12, 2019 17:06:45 GMT
Black Widow and Catwoman (TDKR) have almost no character development. Gamora has a bit but it's handled pretty weak. Elektra (Garner) has better character development than those 3 despite being part of some crappy movies. My list would be: 1. Wonder Woman 2. Catwoman (Batman Returns) 3. Captain Marvel 4. Mystique (Jlaw) 5. Scarlet Witch How are you defining character development? What you said makes utterly no sense to me. If you said you didn't like the direction they developed her I could understand it, but by the common definition claiming she's had "almost no character development" is not even wrong. Black Widow has not grown as a character throughout the movies. She's not much different now than what she was when we first saw her. We know almost nothing about her or her personality. She has a skillset that have barely been utilized other than taking out a few grunts. |
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Post by taylorfirst1 on Mar 12, 2019 17:22:41 GMT
Personally I think the notion of "character developed" is often misused, overused, and overrated.
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Marendil
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@marendil
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Post by Marendil on Mar 12, 2019 17:59:42 GMT
How are you defining character development? What you said makes utterly no sense to me. If you said you didn't like the direction they developed her I could understand it, but by the common definition claiming she's had "almost no character development" is not even wrong. Black Widow has not grown as a character throughout the movies. She's not much different now than what she was when we first saw her. We know almost nothing about her or her personality. She has a skillset that have barely been utilized other than taking out a few grunts. That's not what I saw watching her over the course of the five movies she was in and I detailed why above, hence my puzzlement. I do pay special attention to her scenes though.
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Post by hobowar on Mar 12, 2019 18:27:42 GMT
Based on character development and being true female empowered icons. These are the only ones I consider have had proper story arcs across every brand, sad theres only 6
1) Wonder Woman 2) Catwoman - Batman Returns 3) Gamora 4) Mistique 5) Catwoman - The dark knight Rises 6) Captain Marvel
Edit: Adding in Gamora
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Post by hobowar on Mar 12, 2019 18:29:22 GMT
1)Black Widow
The rest
I'm including men by the way.
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Post by charzhino on Mar 12, 2019 18:56:43 GMT
Black Widow and Catwoman (TDKR) have almost no character development. Gamora has a bit but it's handled pretty weak. Elektra (Garner) has better character development than those 3 despite being part of some crappy movies. My list would be: 1. Wonder Woman 2. Catwoman (Batman Returns) 3. Captain Marvel 4. Mystique (Jlaw) 5. Scarlet Witch How are you defining character development? What you said makes utterly no sense to me. If you said you didn't like the direction they developed her I could understand it, but by the common definition claiming she's had "almost no character development" is not even wrong. Progression from A to B and learning to better flaws Wonder Woman = starts off as a naive Amazonian convinced that the outside world is just as good and pure as Themisycira. Learns the true nature of man is filled with war and violence, and by the end learns that 1 individual cannot save everyone and accepts the value of Steve's sacrafice Catwoman BR = starts off being a pushover, unconfident, dependent on men, dweeb and becomes a independent, engaging hero Catwoman TDKR = Starts of a selfish thief convinced that her robbery and low level crime of the rich is justified. Turns into a redeeming hero and helps save the city and people she had no affliction for Mistique = starts off as an insecure mutant dependent on Charles Xaviers protection. Turns into an independent "mutant and proud" hero when she has a change in heart from killing Trask, to not killing him Gamora = starts off with an inherent hatred for Nebula as she sees her as an object of the division towards Thanos' mad tendencies. Redeems herself by learning to appreciate that Nebula was also a victim of Thanos' insanity and is willing to sacrfice in order to save Nebula in IW. Captain marvel = Starts off having restricted powers due to the inhibitor chip. Learns who the true enemy is, remembers her memories and becomes fully powered. As you can tell, this is very weak compared to others as her initial vulnerability/flaw is not a human character fault. Black Widow = starts off as a spy who had done bad stuff. Struggling to finish this |
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Post by charzhino on Mar 12, 2019 18:59:11 GMT
1)Black Widow The rest I'm including men by the way. Grow up |
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Post by Rey Kahuka on Mar 12, 2019 19:13:37 GMT
How are you defining character development? What you said makes utterly no sense to me. If you said you didn't like the direction they developed her I could understand it, but by the common definition claiming she's had "almost no character development" is not even wrong. Progression from A to B and learning to better flaws Wonder Woman = starts off as a naive Amazonian convinced that the outside world is just as good and pure as Themisycira. Learns the true nature of man is filled with war and violence, and by the end learns that 1 individual cannot save everyone and accepts the value of Steve's sacrafice Catwoman BR = starts off being a pushover, unconfident, dependent on men, dweeb and becomes a independent, engaging hero Catwoman TDKR = Starts of a selfish thief convinced that her robbery and low level crime of the rich is justified. Turns into a redeeming hero and helps save the city and people she had no affliction for Mistique = starts off as an insecure mutant dependent on Charles Xaviers protection. Turns into an independent "mutant and proud" hero when she has a change in heart from killing Trask, to not killing him Gamora = starts off with an inherent hatred for Nebula as she sees her as an object of the division towards Thanos' mad tendencies. Redeems herself by learning to appreciate that Nebula was also a victim of Thanos' insanity and is willing to sacrfice in order to save Nebula in IW. Captain marvel = Starts off having restricted powers due to the inhibitor chip. Learns who the true enemy is, remembers her memories and becomes fully powered. As you can tell, this is very weak compared to others as her initial vulnerability/flaw is not a human character fault. Black Widow = starts off as a spy who had done bad stuff. Struggling to finish thisWe already did several times over. And unlike the two versions of Catwoman, her story is ongoing as opposed to being a one-off character. But I do agree with something you brought up previously: There was never any fallout to her exposing Hydra/SHIELD on the internet. It supposedly revealed all of her dirty deeds over the years, and she faces zero consequences. That's a valid criticism.
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Marendil
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@marendil
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Post by Marendil on Mar 12, 2019 19:13:52 GMT
How are you defining character development? What you said makes utterly no sense to me. If you said you didn't like the direction they developed her I could understand it, but by the common definition claiming she's had "almost no character development" is not even wrong. Progression from A to B and learning to better flaws Black Widow = starts off as a spy who had done bad stuff. Struggling to finish this Not seeing it or recognizing it doesn't mean it didn't happen. Her progression from pragmatic intelligence agent to a superhero outlawed and on the run for taking up an idealistic cause was more of a development than anyone on your list.
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Post by Skaathar on Mar 12, 2019 19:26:18 GMT
Black Widow has not grown as a character throughout the movies. She's not much different now than what she was when we first saw her. We know almost nothing about her or her personality. She has a skillset that have barely been utilized other than taking out a few grunts. That's not what I saw watching her over the course of the five movies she was in and I detailed why above, hence my puzzlement. I do pay special attention to her scenes though. I disagree with Charzino on a lot of things (like his assessment of Gamora and Catwoman) but I have to agree with him regarding Black Widow. Black Widow is a placeholder for actions. They make her kick some butt, hack some computers, talk to people, etc. but they never really give us an idea of her personality. We don't know why she does the things she does. Sure, they might give a brief explanation here and there but it's never properly developed. We got a bit from her brief relationship with Banner but it wasn't enough to truly say she's a developed character. At this point, she's just plain vanilla.
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Marendil
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@marendil
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Post by Marendil on Mar 12, 2019 19:32:58 GMT
Progression from A to B and learning to better flaws Wonder Woman = starts off as a naive Amazonian convinced that the outside world is just as good and pure as Themisycira. Learns the true nature of man is filled with war and violence, and by the end learns that 1 individual cannot save everyone and accepts the value of Steve's sacrafice Catwoman BR = starts off being a pushover, unconfident, dependent on men, dweeb and becomes a independent, engaging hero Catwoman TDKR = Starts of a selfish thief convinced that her robbery and low level crime of the rich is justified. Turns into a redeeming hero and helps save the city and people she had no affliction for Mistique = starts off as an insecure mutant dependent on Charles Xaviers protection. Turns into an independent "mutant and proud" hero when she has a change in heart from killing Trask, to not killing him Gamora = starts off with an inherent hatred for Nebula as she sees her as an object of the division towards Thanos' mad tendencies. Redeems herself by learning to appreciate that Nebula was also a victim of Thanos' insanity and is willing to sacrfice in order to save Nebula in IW. Captain marvel = Starts off having restricted powers due to the inhibitor chip. Learns who the true enemy is, remembers her memories and becomes fully powered. As you can tell, this is very weak compared to others as her initial vulnerability/flaw is not a human character fault. Black Widow = starts off as a spy who had done bad stuff. Struggling to finish thisWe already did several times over. And unlike the two versions of Catwoman, her story is ongoing as opposed to being a one-off character. But I do agree with something you brought up previously: There was never any fallout to her exposing Hydra/SHIELD on the internet. It supposedly revealed all of her dirty deeds over the years, and she faces zero consequences. That's a valid criticism. Or they forgave them as a culmination of a redemption arc and she ended up being punished anyway as she threw that all away to take up an idealistic cause. What would you have preferred to see happen, her being thrown in prison after helping save the world from both an alien invasion and a plot by Hydra to mass murder millions and take control of the world? How does something like that make more sense? She called his bluff and turned out to be right but got hers eventually anyways by continuing along the same path, why make any more of it?
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Post by Rey Kahuka on Mar 12, 2019 19:39:11 GMT
We already did several times over. And unlike the two versions of Catwoman, her story is ongoing as opposed to being a one-off character. But I do agree with something you brought up previously: There was never any fallout to her exposing Hydra/SHIELD on the internet. It supposedly revealed all of her dirty deeds over the years, and she faces zero consequences. That's a valid criticism. Or they forgave them as a culmination of a redemption arc and she ended up being punished anyway as she threw that all away to take up an idealistic cause. What would you have preferred to see happen, her being thrown in prison after helping save the world from both an alien invasion and a plot by Hydra to mass murder millions and take control of the world? How does something like that make more sense? She called his bluff and turned out to be right but got hers eventually anyways by continuing along the same path, why make any more of it? That was the plot of Civil War, though. The public (or at least the governments of the world) didn't trust the heroes because they were acting unilaterally. You could get thrown in prison for trying to stop terrorists unless you ask permission first; yet they were willing to publicly employ a known assassin and former Russian operative? I'm a fan of the films and the character, it certainly doesn't ruin anything for me. I don't need valuable screen time devoted to this (unless they put any of this in her own long overdue film). But it's fair criticism.
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Marendil
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@marendil
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Post by Marendil on Mar 12, 2019 20:02:07 GMT
Or they forgave them as a culmination of a redemption arc and she ended up being punished anyway as she threw that all away to take up an idealistic cause. What would you have preferred to see happen, her being thrown in prison after helping save the world from both an alien invasion and a plot by Hydra to mass murder millions and take control of the world? How does something like that make more sense? She called his bluff and turned out to be right but got hers eventually anyways by continuing along the same path, why make any more of it? That was the plot of Civil War, though. The public (or at least the governments of the world) didn't trust the heroes because they were acting unilaterally. You could get thrown in prison for trying to stop terrorists unless you ask permission first; yet they were willing to publicly employ a known assassin and former Russian operative? I'm a fan of the films and the character, it certainly doesn't ruin anything for me. I don't need valuable screen time devoted to this (unless they put any of this in her own long overdue film). But it's fair criticism. That's your prerogative, I'd just note that it works that way for others in Marvel shows, the Punisher was just offered a job in the CIA despite making a much bigger mess than the Widow and never actually helping save the world from aliens and Hydra. He turned them down and the intelligence officer who made the offer knew damn well that meant he was going to continue dishing out his special brand of 'justice.'
There has to be a little leeway here or the heroes can't really be heroes.
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Post by Rey Kahuka on Mar 12, 2019 20:06:34 GMT
That was the plot of Civil War, though. The public (or at least the governments of the world) didn't trust the heroes because they were acting unilaterally. You could get thrown in prison for trying to stop terrorists unless you ask permission first; yet they were willing to publicly employ a known assassin and former Russian operative? I'm a fan of the films and the character, it certainly doesn't ruin anything for me. I don't need valuable screen time devoted to this (unless they put any of this in her own long overdue film). But it's fair criticism. That's your prerogative, I'd just note that it works that way for others in Marvel shows, the Punisher was just offered a job in the CIA despite making a much bigger mess than the Widow and never actually helping save the world from aliens and Hydra. He turned them down and the intelligence officer who made the offer knew damn well that meant he was going to continue dishing out his special brand of 'justice.'
There has to be a little leeway here or the heroes can't really be heroes.
The Punisher is a total garbage show, so it's not a good comp. Anyway in the case of BW, the end of TWS makes a big deal out of the data dump of Hydra secrets but it never comes to anything. Like I said, it doesn't necessarily have to; a line or two about how Natasha is granted immunity for testimony or something would've been fine. It's just odd that it isn't addressed.
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Marendil
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Post by Marendil on Mar 12, 2019 20:16:35 GMT
That's your prerogative, I'd just note that it works that way for others in Marvel shows, the Punisher was just offered a job in the CIA despite making a much bigger mess than the Widow and never actually helping save the world from aliens and Hydra. He turned them down and the intelligence officer who made the offer knew damn well that meant he was going to continue dishing out his special brand of 'justice.'
There has to be a little leeway here or the heroes can't really be heroes.
The Punisher is a total garbage show, so it's not a good comp. Anyway in the case of BW, the end of TWS makes a big deal out of the data dump of Hydra secrets but it never comes to anything. Like I said, it doesn't necessarily have to; a line or two about how Natasha is granted immunity for testimony or something would've been fine. It's just odd that it isn't addressed. I thought the first season of Punisher was 'meh' and the second damn good, I really liked watching him and the adorable little grifter girl.
I just go for the no prize on that sort of thing, frankly I was under the impression Romanov's speech was supposed to be the last word and resolution on that, analyzing and then divining what people will do is one of her demonstrated skills.
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Post by charzhino on Mar 13, 2019 9:13:05 GMT
Progression from A to B and learning to better flaws Black Widow = starts off as a spy who had done bad stuff. Struggling to finish this Not seeing it or recognizing it doesn't mean it didn't happen. Her progression from pragmatic intelligence agent to a superhero outlawed and on the run for taking up an idealistic cause was more of a development than anyone on your list.
You say being a pragmatic intelligence agent doesnt need to be shown. Highly disagree. If you want your character to be fleshed out with conviction, you need to show, not tell someones backstory. Not talking an entire origin movie, even little snippets like Gamoras childhood when Thanos takes over her planet is enough. Or Magnetos flashbacks to Aushwitz. Even Captain Marvels flashbacks to her as a kid is more than what we got for Widow. We get some blurry 1st person view flashback in Age of ultron of her red room training as shes narrating over it. That is not better development as you claim, than anyone on the list, who have all had their origins shown with much more depth.
Why do you think there is a big demand for A Black widow solo movie. Because her character is not very well fleshed out in the avenger movies!!!
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Marendil
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Post by Marendil on Mar 13, 2019 10:25:15 GMT
Not seeing it or recognizing it doesn't mean it didn't happen. Her progression from pragmatic intelligence agent to a superhero outlawed and on the run for taking up an idealistic cause was more of a development than anyone on your list.
You say being a pragmatic intelligence agent doesnt need to be shown. Highly disagree. If you want your character to be fleshed out with conviction, you need to show, not tell someones backstory. Not talking an entire origin movie, even little snippets like Gamoras childhood when Thanos takes over her planet is enough. Or Magnetos flashbacks to Aushwitz. Even Captain Marvels flashbacks to her as a kid is more than what we got for Widow. We get some blurry 1st person view flashback in Age of ultron of her red room training as shes narrating over it. That is not better development as you claim, than anyone on the list, who have all had their origins shown with much more depth.
Why do you think there is a big demand for A Black widow solo movie. Because her character is not very well fleshed out in the avenger movies!!! I hate flashbacks and they are often considered lazy storytelling, you're supposed to be able to do it with dialogue from the character and others. Think of how they showed Widow's motivation for wanting to change, first with some dialogue with CA suggesting he didn't trust her and then that beautiful reaction shot when she realized Fury didn't trust her but went to Maria Hill and CA instead. That's two of the most important people in her life that didn't consider her particularly trustworthy and you could see how that pained her. That's real development but doesn't break the flow of the show. If flashbacks are your criteria for development I'd rather they didn't satisfy it.
People want to see more of her because she's a great character they love to watch. Flesh might have something to do with it too, but not in the way that you think.
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Post by DSDSquared on Mar 13, 2019 11:41:28 GMT
Can't we add characters like Ellen Ripley? If so, then she trumps all of these losers.
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Post by charzhino on Mar 13, 2019 12:35:35 GMT
I hate flashbacks and they are often considered lazy storytelling, you're supposed to be able to do it with dialogue from the character and others. Widely considered that showing is better than telling in cinema. The lazy option is having characters talk about an event.
Dont remember any of those scenes/moments. Were they even focused on Natashas reaction?
Even if they were, we dont have enough personal connection on her past life to feel much sympathy for her. All she has is verbal exposition of how she was forced to be a spy, forced to have surgery so she couldnt have children, forced outta her home, etc. Nothing visually sympathetic.
Think of when Cap is about to go on the last mission in Winter Soldier and there is a quick flashback of him and Bucky when they were younger and Bucky says he will always look out for Steve after his parents died and hell be with him till the end ofthe line. Fast forward to the climax of the movie where Cap refused to fight Bucky and utters the same dialogue of being at the end of the line. Now imagine directors hadnt included that flashback and instead had Cap just say a line or two about how he and Bucky were tight, the scene wouldn't have had anywhere near the impact it did.
Same goes for Black widows weak characterization build up. She is a placeholder for action and quips, nothing more nothing less. The fact you think she is the best developed out of all my original list is laughable
They want to learn more about her story because it so limited in her appearances.
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