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Post by Skaathar on Mar 21, 2019 17:54:37 GMT
I was going to make a write-up comparing the different personalities of the MCU characters, similar to how I made a write-up comparing the different fighting styles of the MCU characters (here's that thread if you're interested: imdb2.freeforums.net/thread/134598/comparing-different-fighting-styles-characters). As I was writing this thread, I noticed an issue with the main female characters of the MCU. Not exactly a problem but definitely something I think they should start improving on. When I look at the main male characters of the MCU like Steve Rogers, Tony Stark, Thor, T'Challa, Loki, Peter Quill, Vision, Bruce Banner, etc. - I found that all of these characters have very distinct, very unique personalities. Their personal traits and characteristics are very strongly defined and unique which made it easy for me to differentiate the personalities of each. In comparison, when I looked at main female characters like Black Widow, Gamora, Captain Marvel, Okoye, Wasp and Sif - I noticed that their personalities were very similar to each other. I mean, there were obviously some differences (Like Carol's humor being a bit more impish than Gamora's and Sif being a bit more stoic than Okoye) but they had enough similarities that you could almost swap them out for each other. By and large majority of their traits overlapped with one another. All of them are stoic and reserved (you'll almost never see them react wildly to anything), but they all have moments of smart-assery where their humor comes out. Of course, they deliver these smart-ass comments with a straight face. Very seldom will you see them laugh out loud but will usually give only a smirk or a reserved smile. All of them are badass fighters and very capable in pretty much whatever they put their mind to. They still struggle with challenges, but they struggle because they face a difficult opponent or difficult situation. You won't see them make goofy mistakes like Starlord, you won't see them break down from their own hubris like Thor, you don't get a lot of ego-driven stupidity like Stark, etc. All of them also have a softer, almost mother-like side. It's very subtle and not usually seen, normally hidden behind their tough exterior, but it's there. You'll notice that Gamora is usually the voice of compassion in the GOTG. Natasha is the one reaching out between different members of the Avengers when they need someone to talk to, etc. (Ok, maybe Sif doesn't have much going on here... but I blame that on her not getting a lot of screentime). The MCU do have some male characters who's personalities are very similar: Tony Stark/Dr. Strange and Starlord/Antman come to mind, but they're at least few and far in between. Majority of the male characters have very distinctive personalities. And it's not like the MCU isn't capable of giving female characters distinctive personalities: Nebula, Hela, Wanda, Valkyrie, Mantis and Shuri all have very strongly defined and unique personalities. Problem is these characters are either one-off characters (like Hela) or are tier-C characters (characters who will probably never get a movie of their own). So I feel like when it comes to the MCU's main, leading females, they seem afraid to give them personalities that lean too heavily/strongly to one side or the other. They give them well-balanced personalities, almost like a jack-of-all-trades, which isn't exactly wrong but it does feel a bit too safe. Not an issue if they used it for one or two characters but when they keep using the same template with only slight variations in personalities, well, I feel like they'll never truly make these characters iconic. Not to the level of guys like Ironman, Captain America and Loki anyway. |
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Post by Rey Kahuka on Mar 21, 2019 18:53:13 GMT
They won't make women bumbling idiots like Starlord because holy sh-t the outrage. None of them have enough focus put on them in their respective films to become iconic except CM, and they made her an amnesiac which pretty much takes away any possibility of true character moments for 75% of the film. They're clearly underwritten, which is why I had such a devil of a time deciding which one of them was the best in your other thread.
Black Widow has hints of some serious character depth, and hopefully her film really pushes the boundaries of what a MCU film can be. I didn't think CM was a bad flick, but it could've been so much better. With time, I'm hoping they expand on her character considerably. I want Cap-level character examination with her at least.
Characters such as Sif and Okoye are minor supporting characters and virtual walking clichés. They serve a function in the story but aren't terribly important, so they don't need a ton of depth. But honestly it's sad that Wasp is basically 'sassy no-nonsense chick #4,' and as of right now she's more compelling than Captain Marvel.
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Post by merh on Mar 23, 2019 2:19:10 GMT
They won't make women bumbling idiots like Starlord because holy sh-t the outrage. None of them have enough focus put on them in their respective films to become iconic except CM, and they made her an amnesiac which pretty much takes away any possibility of true character moments for 75% of the film. They're clearly underwritten, which is why I had such a devil of a time deciding which one of them was the best in your other thread. Black Widow has hints of some serious character depth, and hopefully her film really pushes the boundaries of what a MCU film can be. I didn't think CM was a bad flick, but it could've been so much better. With time, I'm hoping they expand on her character considerably. I want Cap-level character examination with her at least. Characters such as Sif and Okoye are minor supporting characters and virtual walking clichés. They serve a function in the story but aren't terribly important, so they don't need a ton of depth. But honestly it's sad that Wasp is basically 'sassy no-nonsense chick #4,' and as of right now she's more compelling than Captain Marvel. Darcy?
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Post by merh on Mar 23, 2019 2:25:55 GMT
I was going to make a write-up comparing the different personalities of the MCU characters, similar to how I made a write-up comparing the different fighting styles of the MCU characters (here's that thread if you're interested: imdb2.freeforums.net/thread/134598/comparing-different-fighting-styles-characters). As I was writing this thread, I noticed an issue with the main female characters of the MCU. Not exactly a problem but definitely something I think they should start improving on. When I look at the main male characters of the MCU like Steve Rogers, Tony Stark, Thor, T'Challa, Loki, Peter Quill, Vision, Bruce Banner, etc. - I found that all of these characters have very distinct, very unique personalities. Their personal traits and characteristics are very strongly defined and unique which made it easy for me to differentiate the personalities of each. In comparison, when I looked at main female characters like Black Widow, Gamora, Captain Marvel, Okoye, Wasp and Sif - I noticed that their personalities were very similar to each other. I mean, there were obviously some differences (Like Carol's humor being a bit more impish than Gamora's and Sif being a bit more stoic than Okoye) but they had enough similarities that you could almost swap them out for each other. By and large majority of their traits overlapped with one another. All of them are stoic and reserved (you'll almost never see them react wildly to anything), but they all have moments of smart-assery where their humor comes out. Of course, they deliver these smart-ass comments with a straight face. Very seldom will you see them laugh out loud but will usually give only a smirk or a reserved smile. All of them are badass fighters and very capable in pretty much whatever they put their mind to. They still struggle with challenges, but they struggle because they face a difficult opponent or difficult situation. You won't see them make goofy mistakes like Starlord, you won't see them break down from their own hubris like Thor, you don't get a lot of ego-driven stupidity like Stark, etc. All of them also have a softer, almost mother-like side. It's very subtle and not usually seen, normally hidden behind their tough exterior, but it's there. You'll notice that Gamora is usually the voice of compassion in the GOTG. Natasha is the one reaching out between different members of the Avengers when they need someone to talk to, etc. (Ok, maybe Sif doesn't have much going on here... but I blame that on her not getting a lot of screentime). The MCU do have some male characters who's personalities are very similar: Tony Stark/Dr. Strange and Starlord/Antman come to mind, but they're at least few and far in between. Majority of the male characters have very distinctive personalities. And it's not like the MCU isn't capable of giving female characters distinctive personalities: Nebula, Hela, Wanda, Valkyrie, Mantis and Shuri all have very strongly defined and unique personalities. Problem is these characters are either one-off characters (like Hela) or are tier-C characters (characters who will probably never get a movie of their own). So I feel like when it comes to the MCU's main, leading females, they seem afraid to give them personalities that lean too heavily/strongly to one side or the other. They give them well-balanced personalities, almost like a jack-of-all-trades, which isn't exactly wrong but it does feel a bit too safe. Not an issue if they used it for one or two characters but when they keep using the same template with only slight variations in personalities, well, I feel like they'll never truly make these characters iconic. Not to the level of guys like Ironman, Captain America and Loki anyway. The problem is comics have long been written by guys who really don't know good female characters. There is a reason Jane Foster was dumped. I have the collection of heroines with Lee's forward & he stated Marvel had to go with Sif because Jane was horribly one-dimensional, fantasizing of polishing Mjolnir & ironing Thor's cape. I'm less than thrilled with the number of female characters who become god-like powerful who go berserk like Phoenix. Because women can't handle power?
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Post by Feologild Oakes on Mar 23, 2019 2:29:12 GMT
I was going to make a write-up comparing the different personalities of the MCU characters, similar to how I made a write-up comparing the different fighting styles of the MCU characters (here's that thread if you're interested: imdb2.freeforums.net/thread/134598/comparing-different-fighting-styles-characters). As I was writing this thread, I noticed an issue with the main female characters of the MCU. Not exactly a problem but definitely something I think they should start improving on. When I look at the main male characters of the MCU like Steve Rogers, Tony Stark, Thor, T'Challa, Loki, Peter Quill, Vision, Bruce Banner, etc. - I found that all of these characters have very distinct, very unique personalities. Their personal traits and characteristics are very strongly defined and unique which made it easy for me to differentiate the personalities of each. In comparison, when I looked at main female characters like Black Widow, Gamora, Captain Marvel, Okoye, Wasp and Sif - I noticed that their personalities were very similar to each other. I mean, there were obviously some differences (Like Carol's humor being a bit more impish than Gamora's and Sif being a bit more stoic than Okoye) but they had enough similarities that you could almost swap them out for each other. By and large majority of their traits overlapped with one another. All of them are stoic and reserved (you'll almost never see them react wildly to anything), but they all have moments of smart-assery where their humor comes out. Of course, they deliver these smart-ass comments with a straight face. Very seldom will you see them laugh out loud but will usually give only a smirk or a reserved smile. All of them are badass fighters and very capable in pretty much whatever they put their mind to. They still struggle with challenges, but they struggle because they face a difficult opponent or difficult situation. You won't see them make goofy mistakes like Starlord, you won't see them break down from their own hubris like Thor, you don't get a lot of ego-driven stupidity like Stark, etc. All of them also have a softer, almost mother-like side. It's very subtle and not usually seen, normally hidden behind their tough exterior, but it's there. You'll notice that Gamora is usually the voice of compassion in the GOTG. Natasha is the one reaching out between different members of the Avengers when they need someone to talk to, etc. (Ok, maybe Sif doesn't have much going on here... but I blame that on her not getting a lot of screentime). The MCU do have some male characters who's personalities are very similar: Tony Stark/Dr. Strange and Starlord/Antman come to mind, but they're at least few and far in between. Majority of the male characters have very distinctive personalities. And it's not like the MCU isn't capable of giving female characters distinctive personalities: Nebula, Hela, Wanda, Valkyrie, Mantis and Shuri all have very strongly defined and unique personalities. Problem is these characters are either one-off characters (like Hela) or are tier-C characters (characters who will probably never get a movie of their own). So I feel like when it comes to the MCU's main, leading females, they seem afraid to give them personalities that lean too heavily/strongly to one side or the other. They give them well-balanced personalities, almost like a jack-of-all-trades, which isn't exactly wrong but it does feel a bit too safe. Not an issue if they used it for one or two characters but when they keep using the same template with only slight variations in personalities, well, I feel like they'll never truly make these characters iconic. Not to the level of guys like Ironman, Captain America and Loki anyway. The problem is comics have long been written by guys who really don't know good female characters. There is a reason Jane Foster was dumped. I have the collection of heroines with Lee's forward & he stated Marvel had to go with Sif because Jane was horribly one-dimensional, fantasizing of polishing Mjolnir & ironing Thor's cape. I'm less than thrilled with the number of female characters who become god-like powerful who go berserk like Phoenix. Because women can't handle power? I may be wrong but i think Jane Foster was dumped because Natalie Portman did not want to play her anymore.
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Post by merh on Mar 23, 2019 3:02:08 GMT
The problem is comics have long been written by guys who really don't know good female characters. There is a reason Jane Foster was dumped. I have the collection of heroines with Lee's forward & he stated Marvel had to go with Sif because Jane was horribly one-dimensional, fantasizing of polishing Mjolnir & ironing Thor's cape. I'm less than thrilled with the number of female characters who become god-like powerful who go berserk like Phoenix. Because women can't handle power? I may be wrong but i think Jane Foster was dumped because Natalie Portman did not want to play her anymore. I'm talking about the book published in 1977 www.goodreads.com/book/show/2764494-the-superhero-women
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Post by Skaathar on Mar 23, 2019 17:21:19 GMT
Just to clarify, I'm not really complaining about whether the female characters have depth or if they're shallow.
Just pointing out that the main female characters have very few defining characteristics. Or that they keep using the same defining characteristics.
I mean, Korg isn't exactly a deep character. But he does have a very defined and recognizable personality.
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Post by merh on Mar 23, 2019 19:47:44 GMT
Just to clarify, I'm not really complaining about whether the female characters have depth or if they're shallow. Just pointing out that the main female characters have very few defining characteristics. Or that they keep using the same defining characteristics. I mean, Korg isn't exactly a deep character. But he does have a very defined and recognizable personality. Look how divisive Darcy is. Pepper is different from the other gals. Same for Christine Palmer. Maybe it's easier to do the support gals because they have less on their shoulders. With the lack of hero gals, there is less to make as icons for little girls to look up to. Far easier for little boys But Wanda is definitely very different from the others, probably because of her youth. She was angry when we first met her, but unsure by the end. Widow has been wiped. Like Bucky, they programmed much of herself out. Gamora was a hostage like Carol so it wouldnt be unusual for both to harbor anger, but Nebula is anger overdeive because she has the resentment of not being the favorite. More similar to Loki. But Carol is very different from Gamora. They have differences, but maybe the gals who choose to make the tough choices, to become a hero that risks her life to save others, would be more similar to one another than to your girlfriend or mom
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Post by Skaathar on Mar 23, 2019 20:33:15 GMT
Just to clarify, I'm not really complaining about whether the female characters have depth or if they're shallow. Just pointing out that the main female characters have very few defining characteristics. Or that they keep using the same defining characteristics. I mean, Korg isn't exactly a deep character. But he does have a very defined and recognizable personality. Look how divisive Darcy is. Pepper is different from the other gals. Same for Christine Palmer. Maybe it's easier to do the support gals because they have less on their shoulders. With the lack of hero gals, there is less to make as icons for little girls to look up to. Far easier for little boys But Wanda is definitely very different from the others, probably because of her youth. She was angry when we first met her, but unsure by the end. Widow has been wiped. Like Bucky, they programmed much of herself out. Gamora was a hostage like Carol so it wouldnt be unusual for both to harbor anger, but Nebula is anger overdeive because she has the resentment of not being the favorite. More similar to Loki. But Carol is very different from Gamora. They have differences, but maybe the gals who choose to make the tough choices, to become a hero that risks her life to save others, would be more similar to one another than to your girlfriend or mom Like I said in my OP, female characters like Wanda, Nebula, Hela and Mantis have very defined characteristics. We can include Darcy in there if you want. But the main female characters like BW, Gamora, Carol and Wasp are very similar. Of course they have differences, no two characters are exactly alike, but they're similar enough that they start becoming redundant. It's like how Stark and Strange are very similar despite some differences. Thankfully there's only two of them. Could you imagine if Thor, Banner and Rogers also had a similar personality template? If the reason is that the main female characters need to be more perfect because they have more weight on their shoulders to become good icons to little girls (and I do think you have a point there), then that's delving dangerously close to mary sue territory. |
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Post by taylorfirst1 on Mar 23, 2019 20:39:05 GMT
Valkyrie has a lot of personality.
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Post by Skaathar on Mar 23, 2019 20:41:08 GMT
Valkyrie has a lot of personality. Yup. That's why I included her in the list of side characters with lots of personality together with the likes of Wanda, Nebula, Shuri and Hela. |
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Post by thenewnexus on Mar 23, 2019 22:47:12 GMT
They won't make women bumbling idiots like Starlord because holy sh-t the outrage. None of them have enough focus put on them in their respective films to become iconic except CM, and they made her an amnesiac which pretty much takes away any possibility of true character moments for 75% of the film. They're clearly underwritten, which is why I had such a devil of a time deciding which one of them was the best in your other thread. Black Widow has hints of some serious character depth, and hopefully her film really pushes the boundaries of what a MCU film can be. I didn't think CM was a bad flick, but it could've been so much better. With time, I'm hoping they expand on her character considerably. I want Cap-level character examination with her at least. Characters such as Sif and Okoye are minor supporting characters and virtual walking clichés. They serve a function in the story but aren't terribly important, so they don't need a ton of depth. But honestly it's sad that Wasp is basically 'sassy no-nonsense chick #4,' and as of right now she's more compelling than Captain Marvel. Darcy? Darcy deserves a mention
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Post by merh on Mar 24, 2019 0:41:20 GMT
Look how divisive Darcy is. Pepper is different from the other gals. Same for Christine Palmer. Maybe it's easier to do the support gals because they have less on their shoulders. With the lack of hero gals, there is less to make as icons for little girls to look up to. Far easier for little boys But Wanda is definitely very different from the others, probably because of her youth. She was angry when we first met her, but unsure by the end. Widow has been wiped. Like Bucky, they programmed much of herself out. Gamora was a hostage like Carol so it wouldnt be unusual for both to harbor anger, but Nebula is anger overdeive because she has the resentment of not being the favorite. More similar to Loki. But Carol is very different from Gamora. They have differences, but maybe the gals who choose to make the tough choices, to become a hero that risks her life to save others, would be more similar to one another than to your girlfriend or mom Like I said in my OP, female characters like Wanda, Nebula, Hela and Mantis have very defined characteristics. We can include Darcy in there if you want. But the main female characters like BW, Gamora, Carol and Wasp are very similar. Of course they have differences, no two characters are exactly alike, but they're similar enough that they start becoming redundant. It's like how Stark and Strange are very similar despite some differences. Thankfully there's only two of them. Could you imagine if Thor, Banner and Rogers also had a similar personality template? If the reason is that the main female characters need to be more perfect because they have more weight on their shoulders to become good icons to little girls (and I do think you have a point there), then that's delving dangerously close to mary sue territory. I know I had a hell of a time finding good heroines for my daughter in the 90s stuff. Lots of movies led by boys, but not so many with strong girls leading the show. So we are cool with uber powerful dudes like Goku, but girls are Mary Sue's? One similarity is the struggle to be seen, to be accepted. Thor asks who made Sif a strong warrior leader? She says she did & Thor says but he supported her. Hope Van Dyne has a different chip on her shoulder. An absentee dad not unlike Tony/Howard, but Tony is accepted as a genius. Hope has to fight to be accepted in her father's company & by her father. He was mourning the loss of his wife, but Hope lost him as well as Janet. So, yeah, chip on her shoulder from years spent trying to be seen. Okoye & Sif are warriors. One sees a bit of their duty in their demeanor. To be the leader of the personal guard to the king would not allow for a hell of a lot of laughter on the job. Could one argue Natasha & Phil Coulson were rather similar when introduced, meaning sort of what the job expects? Not too many jokes? Business? Hawkeye actually exhibited more humor first time we saw him, didn't he? Still, as agents of SHIELD, they were pretty serious in public interactions. Pepper was the first Marvel gal we met. Are you saying she is like all the others? Peggy Carter? Even being in the military, she had a sense of humor & a distinct personality from Pepper. So its not all the gals. Sharon Carter isn't like Peggy or Pepper or Darcy. As I argued, Nebula is more similar to Hope as far as simmering anger over not being seen as herself, but also Loki for resenting the sibling in daddy's light.
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Post by Skaathar on Mar 24, 2019 1:49:59 GMT
Like I said in my OP, female characters like Wanda, Nebula, Hela and Mantis have very defined characteristics. We can include Darcy in there if you want. But the main female characters like BW, Gamora, Carol and Wasp are very similar. Of course they have differences, no two characters are exactly alike, but they're similar enough that they start becoming redundant. It's like how Stark and Strange are very similar despite some differences. Thankfully there's only two of them. Could you imagine if Thor, Banner and Rogers also had a similar personality template? If the reason is that the main female characters need to be more perfect because they have more weight on their shoulders to become good icons to little girls (and I do think you have a point there), then that's delving dangerously close to mary sue territory. I know I had a hell of a time finding good heroines for my daughter in the 90s stuff. Lots of movies led by boys, but not so many with strong girls leading the show. So we are cool with uber powerful dudes like Goku, but girls are Mary Sue's? One similarity is the struggle to be seen, to be accepted. Thor asks who made Sif a strong warrior leader? She says she did & Thor says but he supported her. Hope Van Dyne has a different chip on her shoulder. An absentee dad not unlike Tony/Howard, but Tony is accepted as a genius. Hope has to fight to be accepted in her father's company & by her father. He was mourning the loss of his wife, but Hope lost him as well as Janet. So, yeah, chip on her shoulder from years spent trying to be seen. Okoye & Sif are warriors. One sees a bit of their duty in their demeanor. To be the leader of the personal guard to the king would not allow for a hell of a lot of laughter on the job. Could one argue Natasha & Phil Coulson were rather similar when introduced, meaning sort of what the job expects? Not too many jokes? Business? Hawkeye actually exhibited more humor first time we saw him, didn't he? Still, as agents of SHIELD, they were pretty serious in public interactions. Pepper was the first Marvel gal we met. Are you saying she is like all the others? Peggy Carter? Even being in the military, she had a sense of humor & a distinct personality from Pepper. So its not all the gals. Sharon Carter isn't like Peggy or Pepper or Darcy. As I argued, Nebula is more similar to Hope as far as simmering anger over not being seen as herself, but also Loki for resenting the sibling in daddy's light. As I had already mentioned multiple times, it's not all the female characters, just a lot of the main ones. Yes, Peggy is not like Sharon who is also different from Darcy. That's why I didn't include them in the list of names I originally stated. And as I had explained multiple times in these threads, making someone uber powerful (like Goku) doesn't necessarily make one a mary sue. It's when you make a character a wish-fulfillment character where they become mary sues. Now I'm not saying Black Widow or Gamora or Carol are mary sues (if you've read some of my older posts I specifically argued against people claiming Carol was a mary sue). I'm simply saying that if you create these characters with the specific intent that they need to be 'perfect icons' for little girls, then they will get dangerously close to being wish fulfillment characters.
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Post by merh on Mar 24, 2019 7:15:13 GMT
I know I had a hell of a time finding good heroines for my daughter in the 90s stuff. Lots of movies led by boys, but not so many with strong girls leading the show. So we are cool with uber powerful dudes like Goku, but girls are Mary Sue's? One similarity is the struggle to be seen, to be accepted. Thor asks who made Sif a strong warrior leader? She says she did & Thor says but he supported her. Hope Van Dyne has a different chip on her shoulder. An absentee dad not unlike Tony/Howard, but Tony is accepted as a genius. Hope has to fight to be accepted in her father's company & by her father. He was mourning the loss of his wife, but Hope lost him as well as Janet. So, yeah, chip on her shoulder from years spent trying to be seen. Okoye & Sif are warriors. One sees a bit of their duty in their demeanor. To be the leader of the personal guard to the king would not allow for a hell of a lot of laughter on the job. Could one argue Natasha & Phil Coulson were rather similar when introduced, meaning sort of what the job expects? Not too many jokes? Business? Hawkeye actually exhibited more humor first time we saw him, didn't he? Still, as agents of SHIELD, they were pretty serious in public interactions. Pepper was the first Marvel gal we met. Are you saying she is like all the others? Peggy Carter? Even being in the military, she had a sense of humor & a distinct personality from Pepper. So its not all the gals. Sharon Carter isn't like Peggy or Pepper or Darcy. As I argued, Nebula is more similar to Hope as far as simmering anger over not being seen as herself, but also Loki for resenting the sibling in daddy's light. As I had already mentioned multiple times, it's not all the female characters, just a lot of the main ones. Yes, Peggy is not like Sharon who is also different from Darcy. That's why I didn't include them in the list of names I originally stated. And as I had explained multiple times in these threads, making someone uber powerful (like Goku) doesn't necessarily make one a mary sue. It's when you make a character a wish-fulfillment character where they become mary sues. Now I'm not saying Black Widow or Gamora or Carol are mary sues (if you've read some of my older posts I specifically argued against people claiming Carol was a mary sue). I'm simply saying that if you create these characters with the specific intent that they need to be 'perfect icons' for little girls, then they will get dangerously close to being wish fulfillment characters. I really don't get the whole Mary Sue thing. I understand it's from Star Trek fan fiction, but it seems people love throwing it around anymore. Its the hero. They're supposed to save the day. It's even become a joke, the hero able to do everything so it is recognized Carol isn't perfect. She followed the Kree in their wrong war & corrected course when she discovered her error. So they don't need to be perfect. It's better they can make mistakes so kids can see them learn from them. I don't get the hate for Antman & Wasp. I like it way more than Antman. Wasp kicks ass. Maybe what I'm saying it it may seem they are all the same, but they have their differences if one is paying attention. We're all more familiar with the boys of the genre & those we aren't, we know the stereotypes that we fill a lot in. Drax is a stereotype, isn't he? Peter Quill? Unfortunately the stereotypes of women run to negative quickly. A male character that sleeps around is a stud. Female characters who sleep around are sluts. Women who stand up for themselves are bitches. A man who listens to his partner is henpecked So, yeah, there's not a lot of room before we run to negative
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Post by Skaathar on Mar 24, 2019 18:00:21 GMT
As I had already mentioned multiple times, it's not all the female characters, just a lot of the main ones. Yes, Peggy is not like Sharon who is also different from Darcy. That's why I didn't include them in the list of names I originally stated. And as I had explained multiple times in these threads, making someone uber powerful (like Goku) doesn't necessarily make one a mary sue. It's when you make a character a wish-fulfillment character where they become mary sues. Now I'm not saying Black Widow or Gamora or Carol are mary sues (if you've read some of my older posts I specifically argued against people claiming Carol was a mary sue). I'm simply saying that if you create these characters with the specific intent that they need to be 'perfect icons' for little girls, then they will get dangerously close to being wish fulfillment characters. I really don't get the whole Mary Sue thing. I understand it's from Star Trek fan fiction, but it seems people love throwing it around anymore. Its the hero. They're supposed to save the day. It's even become a joke, the hero able to do everything so it is recognized Carol isn't perfect. She followed the Kree in their wrong war & corrected course when she discovered her error. So they don't need to be perfect. It's better they can make mistakes so kids can see them learn from them. I don't get the hate for Antman & Wasp. I like it way more than Antman. Wasp kicks ass. Maybe what I'm saying it it may seem they are all the same, but they have their differences if one is paying attention. We're all more familiar with the boys of the genre & those we aren't, we know the stereotypes that we fill a lot in. Drax is a stereotype, isn't he? Peter Quill? Unfortunately the stereotypes of women run to negative quickly. A male character that sleeps around is a stud. Female characters who sleep around are sluts. Women who stand up for themselves are bitches. A man who listens to his partner is henpecked So, yeah, there's not a lot of room before we run to negative Mary sues are more discussed and far more understood in the fictional book reading/writing community. That's how I first learned about it, especially when I started writing my own fanfiction and short stories. In comparison, the term has only been recently heard by most of the movie-watching community, and I find majority of people in this community don't truly understand what it is and just keep throwing it around. Just because a hero can do whatever is needed to save the day doesn't make them mary sues. They might be, but that's not the defining characteristic. It really depends on how they're able to save the day. You say they're not all the same, that they have defining characteristics of their own. Would you mind giving me your own description of the personalities of Black Widow, Wasp, Captain Marvel and Gamora? Because when I tried to write down my own descriptions of them, I found that though they had some slight differences, majority of their personality traits overlapped with each other. As for stereotypes, majority of MCU characters originate as stereotypes. Tony Stark is the rich playboy, Steve Rogers is the boyscout, Thor is the jock, Banner is the nerd. That doesn't stop the MCU from developing their characteristics further and deeper than their simple stereotypes. And I disagree with your assessment of female stereotypes, at least in this modern age. You say women who stand up for themselves are labelled as bitches. I don't recall anybody calling Ellen Ripley, Red Sonja or Sara Connor as bitches. Nobody called Wonder Woman, Furiosa or Alita bitches. Claire Temple and Jessica Jones in the MCU Netflix series have slept around a bit, don't think anybody has called them sluts for doing so.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 24, 2019 18:53:11 GMT
Female characters can be hard for men to write for. What generally happens is that they either become damsels in distress (Mary Jane Watson), love interests for a male lead (Gamora) or the writers overcompensate to make them flawless and overpowered (Carol Dancers, Wasp Woman) or they simply write them as if they were alpha male action heroes (Black Widow).
It's frustrating to see as a fan of these movies (and stories in general). I would cite Nebula as the best female character in the MCU because she is flawed, allowed to be emotional and has an actual character arc.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 24, 2019 19:10:27 GMT
I really don't get the whole Mary Sue thing. I understand it's from Star Trek fan fiction, but it seems people love throwing it around anymore. Its the hero. They're supposed to save the day. It's even become a joke, the hero able to do everything so it is recognized Carol isn't perfect. She followed the Kree in their wrong war & corrected course when she discovered her error. So they don't need to be perfect. It's better they can make mistakes so kids can see them learn from them. I don't get the hate for Antman & Wasp. I like it way more than Antman. Wasp kicks ass. Maybe what I'm saying it it may seem they are all the same, but they have their differences if one is paying attention. We're all more familiar with the boys of the genre & those we aren't, we know the stereotypes that we fill a lot in. Drax is a stereotype, isn't he? Peter Quill? Unfortunately the stereotypes of women run to negative quickly. A male character that sleeps around is a stud. Female characters who sleep around are sluts. Women who stand up for themselves are bitches. A man who listens to his partner is henpecked So, yeah, there's not a lot of room before we run to negative Mary sues are more discussed and far more understood in the fictional book reading/writing community. That's how I first learned about it, especially when I started writing my own fanfiction and short stories. In comparison, the term has only been recently heard by most of the movie-watching community, and I find majority of people in this community don't truly understand what it is and just keep throwing it around. Just because a hero can do whatever is needed to save the day doesn't make them mary sues. They might be, but that's not the defining characteristic. It really depends on how they're able to save the day. You say they're not all the same, that they have defining characteristics of their own. Would you mind giving me your own description of the personalities of Black Widow, Wasp, Captain Marvel and Gamora? Because when I tried to write down my own descriptions of them, I found that though they had some slight differences, majority of their personality traits overlapped with each other. As for stereotypes, majority of MCU characters originate as stereotypes. Tony Stark is the rich playboy, Steve Rogers is the boyscout, Thor is the jock, Banner is the nerd. That doesn't stop the MCU from developing their characteristics further and deeper than their simple stereotypes. And I disagree with your assessment of female stereotypes, at least in this modern age. You say women who stand up for themselves are labelled as bitches. I don't recall anybody calling Ellen Ripley, Red Sonja or Sara Connor as bitches. Nobody called Wonder Woman, Furiosa or Alita bitches. Claire Temple and Jessica Jones in the MCU Netflix series have slept around a bit, don't think anybody has called them sluts for doing so. Usually, saving the day because of some unexplained hidden talent or sudden appearance of abilities is deus ex machina. As far as I can tell, Mary Sue is just the default expression saved for strong women that are strong in ways men find unappealing.
I looked up the history too. In the cases I found, Mary Sue was reserved for characters who men couldn't relate to because they either don't see themselves in them, or they don't like them because their strength is uncompromised by being attracted to a man. The more I read, the more sexist it leaped off the page that when men don't approve of female strength, they're Mary Sues. It's the only explanation; they're difficult to relate to because they seem to have all the answers, rise to meet any challenge and seem otherwise prepared for everything that happens. The problem is in most men, that's strength. Somebody to look up to. Wish fulfillment as has been pointed out. The idea of a character being a Mary Sue comes from that same competence seeming out of place for a woman.
Women who stand up for themselves are criticized for being bitches, or bitchy. Virtually all of the examples of successful females lauded here like Ellen Ripley and Sara Connor are at the top of their game. They have to be icons so overwhelmingly well-written for them not to be Mary Sues, and frankly, maybe there's just nobody bitchy enough making the case that they are and I'm not gonna take that for granted. Why Ellen Ripley and Sara Connor escape it is anybody's guess. Ellen Ripley was considered a bitch in her movie. Her own cohort face-slapped her for not letting their infected crew mate in, then the next 3 movies are all her being dragged through the dirt. Sara Connor really toughened up but when people talk about iconic Sara Connor, they're talking T2 Sara Connor. Badass, machine gun wielding, Razor Ramon toothpick chewing Sara Connor; not the Sara Connor from the first Terminator. I've definitely heard Furiosa and Wonder Woman called bitches, the latter around these boards (and in her own movie, part of the character). I don't know who Alita is, but Fury Road took it in the ass on Youtube for being a feminist movie supplanting Mad Max himself with Furiosa. It absolutely got the Captain Marvel treatment a few years ago.
I think anybody could just as easily call Ripley, Connor, Wonder Woman, Jessica Jones Mary Sues. Not saying they are since I believe it's a barely viable academic bullshit term anyways, but nothing's stopping somebody from calling them that. Just personal preference and, in my opinion, probably nostalgia and having seen them so long ago. Your point is taken, but personally, I think Mary Sue is equally bullshit when used correctly as it is incorrectly.
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Post by Skaathar on Mar 24, 2019 19:23:41 GMT
Mary sues are more discussed and far more understood in the fictional book reading/writing community. That's how I first learned about it, especially when I started writing my own fanfiction and short stories. In comparison, the term has only been recently heard by most of the movie-watching community, and I find majority of people in this community don't truly understand what it is and just keep throwing it around. Just because a hero can do whatever is needed to save the day doesn't make them mary sues. They might be, but that's not the defining characteristic. It really depends on how they're able to save the day. You say they're not all the same, that they have defining characteristics of their own. Would you mind giving me your own description of the personalities of Black Widow, Wasp, Captain Marvel and Gamora? Because when I tried to write down my own descriptions of them, I found that though they had some slight differences, majority of their personality traits overlapped with each other. As for stereotypes, majority of MCU characters originate as stereotypes. Tony Stark is the rich playboy, Steve Rogers is the boyscout, Thor is the jock, Banner is the nerd. That doesn't stop the MCU from developing their characteristics further and deeper than their simple stereotypes. And I disagree with your assessment of female stereotypes, at least in this modern age. You say women who stand up for themselves are labelled as bitches. I don't recall anybody calling Ellen Ripley, Red Sonja or Sara Connor as bitches. Nobody called Wonder Woman, Furiosa or Alita bitches. Claire Temple and Jessica Jones in the MCU Netflix series have slept around a bit, don't think anybody has called them sluts for doing so. Usually, saving the day because of some unexplained hidden talent or sudden appearance of abilities is deus ex machina. As far as I can tell, Mary Sue is just the default expression saved for strong women that are strong in ways men find unappealing.
I looked up the history too. In the cases I found, Mary Sue was reserved for characters who men couldn't relate to because they either don't see themselves in them, or they don't like them because their strength is uncompromised by being attracted to a man. The more I read, the more sexist it leaped off the page that when men don't approve of female strength, they're Mary Sues. It's the only explanation; they're difficult to relate to because they seem to have all the answers, rise to meet any challenge and seem otherwise prepared for everything that happens. The problem is in most men, that's strength. Somebody to look up to. Wish fulfillment as has been pointed out. The idea of a character being a Mary Sue comes from that same competence seeming out of place for a woman.
Women who stand up for themselves are criticized for being bitches, or bitchy. Virtually all of the examples of successful females lauded here like Ellen Ripley and Sara Connor are at the top of their game. They have to be icons so overwhelmingly well-written for them not to be Mary Sues, and frankly, maybe there's just nobody bitchy enough making the case that they are and I'm not gonna take that for granted. Why Ellen Ripley and Sara Connor escape it is anybody's guess. Ellen Ripley was considered a bitch in her movie. Her own cohort face-slapped her for not letting their infected crew mate in, then the next 3 movies are all her being dragged through the dirt. Sara Connor really toughened up but when people talk about iconic Sara Connor, they're talking T2 Sara Connor. Badass, machine gun wielding, Razor Ramon toothpick chewing Sara Connor; not the Sara Connor from the first Terminator. I've definitely heard Furiosa and Wonder Woman called bitches, the latter around these boards (and in her own movie, part of the character). I don't know who Alita is, but Fury Road took it in the ass on Youtube for being a feminist movie supplanting Mad Max himself with Furiosa. It absolutely got the Captain Marvel treatment a few years ago.
I think anybody could just as easily call Ripley, Connor, Wonder Woman, Jessica Jones Mary Sues. Not saying they are since I believe it's a barely viable academic bullshit term anyways, but nothing's stopping somebody from calling them that. Just personal preference and, in my opinion, probably nostalgia and having seen them so long ago. Your point is taken, but personally, I think Mary Sue is equally bullshit when used correctly as it is incorrectly.
Mary Sue used correctly... has got nothing to do with the definition you just described it with. I mean no offense (truly I don't), but the way you described mary sues is completely off the mark. Mary Sues can apply to both male and female chatacters. Male characters used to be called gary stues but they started to just use mary sue for both male and females. Gary Stues have been around for quite some time, but the main reason you don't see them anymore is because audiences started criticizing them heavily ages ago. Wesley Crusher, Donner's Superman, West's Batman... all examples of gary stues. And though we might remember them fondly, fact is they'd be ridiculed and heavily criticized if they were released in today's world. What I'm trying to say, is that "mary sue" isn't some form of sexist propaganda against female characters. It applies equally to both male and female characters. In fact when the term first came around, majority of the best examples were male characters. But then, that's only if you talk to people who actually know what it means. For the general bandwagon crowd of today, I admit that they more easily attribute it to female characters. Majority of Dwayne Johnson's characters are walking mary sues but he doesn't get called out on it. I blame this again on the fact that majority of the movie-watching community don't really understand the term. The book-reading community would have spotted him a mile away. Edit: also, Sarah Connor and Jessica Jones are almost the complete opposite of a Mary Sue. |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 24, 2019 19:47:55 GMT
Usually, saving the day because of some unexplained hidden talent or sudden appearance of abilities is deus ex machina. As far as I can tell, Mary Sue is just the default expression saved for strong women that are strong in ways men find unappealing.
I looked up the history too. In the cases I found, Mary Sue was reserved for characters who men couldn't relate to because they either don't see themselves in them, or they don't like them because their strength is uncompromised by being attracted to a man. The more I read, the more sexist it leaped off the page that when men don't approve of female strength, they're Mary Sues. It's the only explanation; they're difficult to relate to because they seem to have all the answers, rise to meet any challenge and seem otherwise prepared for everything that happens. The problem is in most men, that's strength. Somebody to look up to. Wish fulfillment as has been pointed out. The idea of a character being a Mary Sue comes from that same competence seeming out of place for a woman.
Women who stand up for themselves are criticized for being bitches, or bitchy. Virtually all of the examples of successful females lauded here like Ellen Ripley and Sara Connor are at the top of their game. They have to be icons so overwhelmingly well-written for them not to be Mary Sues, and frankly, maybe there's just nobody bitchy enough making the case that they are and I'm not gonna take that for granted. Why Ellen Ripley and Sara Connor escape it is anybody's guess. Ellen Ripley was considered a bitch in her movie. Her own cohort face-slapped her for not letting their infected crew mate in, then the next 3 movies are all her being dragged through the dirt. Sara Connor really toughened up but when people talk about iconic Sara Connor, they're talking T2 Sara Connor. Badass, machine gun wielding, Razor Ramon toothpick chewing Sara Connor; not the Sara Connor from the first Terminator. I've definitely heard Furiosa and Wonder Woman called bitches, the latter around these boards (and in her own movie, part of the character). I don't know who Alita is, but Fury Road took it in the ass on Youtube for being a feminist movie supplanting Mad Max himself with Furiosa. It absolutely got the Captain Marvel treatment a few years ago.
I think anybody could just as easily call Ripley, Connor, Wonder Woman, Jessica Jones Mary Sues. Not saying they are since I believe it's a barely viable academic bullshit term anyways, but nothing's stopping somebody from calling them that. Just personal preference and, in my opinion, probably nostalgia and having seen them so long ago. Your point is taken, but personally, I think Mary Sue is equally bullshit when used correctly as it is incorrectly.
Mary Sue used correctly... has got nothing to do with the definition you just described it with. I mean no offense, but the way you described mary sues is completely off the mark. Mary Sues can apply to both male and female chatacters. Male characters used to be called gary stues but they started to just use mary sue for both male and females. Gary Stues have been around for quite some time, but the main reason you don't see them anymore is because audiences started criticizing them heavily ages ago. Wesley Crusher, Donner's Superman, West's Batman... all examples of gary stues. And though we might remember them fondly, fact is they'd be ridiculed and heavily criticized if they were released in today's world. What I'm trying to say, is that "mary sue" isn't some form of sexist propaganda against female characters. It applies equally to both male and female characters. In fact when the term first came around, majority of the best examples were male characters. I think I defined it pretty correctly. It's all over Wikipedia and its reference points, the key factors being unrealistically lacking flaws or certain character traits which are easy to relate too. Wish fulfillment and author/creator placing themselves in the character is also a factor. The bare bones of the definition being competent or perfect to the point of not being interesting. Unless you have a different definition than mine that better fits the definitions I've found and read online, I've stayed true to the definition short of cutting and pasting the thing.
I didn't include the male side of it because of the context of the thread, but it's all there too. My question is when was the last time you heard someone call Wesley Crusher a Gary Sue? Probably never, am I right? Because I'm not asking how or why he's a Gary Stu, I'm asking when last did you see him referred to as a Gary Sue. I bet I could find an example of Rey from Star Wars or Captain Marvel from this week if not yesterday, but Wesley Crusher? That's the difference. Yes, I assume we all know Mary Sues can be male or female because I just assume we've all read the same Wikipedia page, but male versions of Gary Sues aren't called that to poison the well and marginalize them. They may be male Mary Sues by definition, but they aren't referred to as such in the popular lexicon.
The fact that it applies to males and females in the fine print doesn't make it less weaponized against women, which as near as I can tell, is what it's used for in the commentary. I've shared many a good joke and criticism about Wesley Crusher, some good, some bad, but never once have I heard him referred to as a Gary Stu. Or Marty Sue. Any of your friends call him that?
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