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Post by Skaathar on Mar 24, 2019 20:14:07 GMT
Mary Sue used correctly... has got nothing to do with the definition you just described it with. I mean no offense, but the way you described mary sues is completely off the mark. Mary Sues can apply to both male and female chatacters. Male characters used to be called gary stues but they started to just use mary sue for both male and females. Gary Stues have been around for quite some time, but the main reason you don't see them anymore is because audiences started criticizing them heavily ages ago. Wesley Crusher, Donner's Superman, West's Batman... all examples of gary stues. And though we might remember them fondly, fact is they'd be ridiculed and heavily criticized if they were released in today's world. What I'm trying to say, is that "mary sue" isn't some form of sexist propaganda against female characters. It applies equally to both male and female characters. In fact when the term first came around, majority of the best examples were male characters. I think I defined it pretty correctly. It's all over Wikipedia and its reference points, the key factors being unrealistically lacking flaws or certain character traits which are easy to relate too. Wish fulfillment and author/creator placing themselves in the character is also a factor. The bare bones of the definition being competent or perfect to the point of not being interesting. Unless you have a different definition than mine that better fits the definitions I've found and read online, I've stayed true to the definition short of cutting and pasting the thing.
I didn't include the male side of it because of the context of the thread, but it's all there too. My question is when was the last time you heard someone call Wesley Crusher a Gary Sue? Probably never, am I right? Because I'm not asking how or why he's a Gary Stu, I'm asking when last did you see him referred to as a Gary Sue. I bet I could find an example of Rey from Star Wars or Captain Marvel from this week if not yesterday, but Wesley Crusher? That's the difference. Yes, I assume we all know Mary Sues can be male or female because I just assume we've all read the same Wikipedia page, but male versions of Gary Sues aren't called that to poison the well and marginalize them. They may be male Mary Sues by definition, but they aren't referred to as such in the popular lexicon.
The fact that it applies to males and females in the fine print doesn't make it less weaponized against women, which as near as I can tell, is what it's used for in the commentary. I've shared many a good joke and criticism about Wesley Crusher, some good, some bad, but never once have I heard him referred to as a Gary Stu. Or Marty Sue. Any of your friends call him that?
To be fair, that wasn't exactly the definition you used. What you said was: and that's what I was referring to when I said you were completely off. As for Wesley Crusher, are you kidding me? Prior to the emergence of Bella Swan and Rey, Wesley Crusher was the primary example of what a mary sue was. He's regularly mentioned in almost any list of mary sues. And yes, I do have friends that regularly refer to him as a mary sue... but then again these friends of mine are avid fictional book readers and they know what the term means. The problem here is, I think, that majority of the movie-watching community (which includes majority of posters here) never really knew or heard about the term "mary sue" up until Rey. And so it's easy for them to assume that it was simply a negative reaction to a strong woman.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 24, 2019 21:11:18 GMT
I think I defined it pretty correctly. It's all over Wikipedia and its reference points, the key factors being unrealistically lacking flaws or certain character traits which are easy to relate too. Wish fulfillment and author/creator placing themselves in the character is also a factor. The bare bones of the definition being competent or perfect to the point of not being interesting. Unless you have a different definition than mine that better fits the definitions I've found and read online, I've stayed true to the definition short of cutting and pasting the thing.
I didn't include the male side of it because of the context of the thread, but it's all there too. My question is when was the last time you heard someone call Wesley Crusher a Gary Sue? Probably never, am I right? Because I'm not asking how or why he's a Gary Stu, I'm asking when last did you see him referred to as a Gary Sue. I bet I could find an example of Rey from Star Wars or Captain Marvel from this week if not yesterday, but Wesley Crusher? That's the difference. Yes, I assume we all know Mary Sues can be male or female because I just assume we've all read the same Wikipedia page, but male versions of Gary Sues aren't called that to poison the well and marginalize them. They may be male Mary Sues by definition, but they aren't referred to as such in the popular lexicon.
The fact that it applies to males and females in the fine print doesn't make it less weaponized against women, which as near as I can tell, is what it's used for in the commentary. I've shared many a good joke and criticism about Wesley Crusher, some good, some bad, but never once have I heard him referred to as a Gary Stu. Or Marty Sue. Any of your friends call him that?
To be fair, that wasn't exactly the definition you used. What you said was: and that's what I was referring to when I said you were completely off. As for Wesley Crusher, are you kidding me? Prior to the emergence of Bella Swan and Rey, Wesley Crusher was the primary example of what a mary sue was. He's regularly mentioned in almost any list of mary sues. And yes, I do have friends that regularly refer to him as a mary sue... but then again these friends of mine are avid fictional book readers and they know what the term means. The problem here is, I think, that majority of the movie-watching community (which includes majority of posters here) never really knew or heard about the term "mary sue" up until Rey. And so it's easy for them to assume that it was simply a negative reaction to a strong woman. That's an observation of mine about why I think certain Mary Sues make the cut. It's a vibe I get from certain comments and conversations, like smiling more. Rey I think about sometimes because if there's one thing not present about her character in Star Wars, it's that she's not attracted to anybody. Lest of all anybody a male viewer might see themselves in. She's one of not that many characters I can think of who has no romantic interest in anybody and is a raging Mary Sue according to some. I don't think it's far-fetched they could be related, especially when it seems like part of what makes a Mary Sue is atypical behavior that offends or defies what's considered customary, like being a love interest.
I've no idea about Bella Swan. It was explained to me once before here and not to sound cruel to that person, but I think I was a little too generous in accepting it. I was more blown away by them being familiar enough with Twilight to make such an educated case.
I wasn't kidding about Wesley Crusher. I've never heard him referred to as a Mary Sue except for the Wikipedia Mary Sue page. I believe you, but I'm just as impressed with it. I've no shortage of nerd-culture, book reading friends as well. None of my friends or anyone I know calls Crusher a Mary Sue, or any of the Youtube videos I've watched over the years. Not a one.
The thing I find with the last sentence (with which I largely agree, by the way), is yes, it's easy for people to assume that it's a negative reaction to a strong woman. The thing is correct or not, when it's what people do it becomes the norm.
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Post by Skaathar on Mar 24, 2019 21:40:02 GMT
To be fair, that wasn't exactly the definition you used. What you said was: and that's what I was referring to when I said you were completely off. As for Wesley Crusher, are you kidding me? Prior to the emergence of Bella Swan and Rey, Wesley Crusher was the primary example of what a mary sue was. He's regularly mentioned in almost any list of mary sues. And yes, I do have friends that regularly refer to him as a mary sue... but then again these friends of mine are avid fictional book readers and they know what the term means. The problem here is, I think, that majority of the movie-watching community (which includes majority of posters here) never really knew or heard about the term "mary sue" up until Rey. And so it's easy for them to assume that it was simply a negative reaction to a strong woman. That's an observation of mine about why I think certain Mary Sues make the cut. It's a vibe I get from certain comments and conversations, like smiling more. Rey I think about sometimes because if there's one thing not present about her character in Star Wars, it's that she's not attracted to anybody. Lest of all anybody a male viewer might see themselves in. She's one of not that many characters I can think of who has no romantic interest in anybody and is a raging Mary Sue according to some. I don't think it's far-fetched they could be related, especially when it seems like part of what makes a Mary Sue is atypical behavior that offends or defies what's considered customary, like being a love interest.
I've no idea about Bella Swan. It was explained to me once before here and not to sound cruel to that person, but I think I was a little too generous in accepting it. I was more blown away by them being familiar enough with Twilight to make such an educated case.
I wasn't kidding about Wesley Crusher. I've never heard him referred to as a Mary Sue except for the Wikipedia Mary Sue page. I believe you, but I'm just as impressed with it. I've no shortage of nerd-culture, book reading friends as well. None of my friends or anyone I know calls Crusher a Mary Sue, or any of the Youtube videos I've watched over the years. Not a one.
The thing I find with the last sentence (with which I largely agree, by the way), is yes, it's easy for people to assume that it's a negative reaction to a strong woman. The thing is correct or not, when it's what people do it becomes the norm.
I agree with that last part of your statement. What we have here is a bunch of people misusing the word "mary sue" to the point where the common interpretation of it is starting to become incorrect. Lately, the term has been used in conjunction with other sexist rants, but that doesn't mean the term itself is sexist. This is why I don't hesitate to correct people here when I see the word misused, because it is now mutating into something that it was never meant to be. You mentioned that a female character not having a love interest may be grounds for it to be called a mary sue... and I have to disagree. It's actually the opposite. One of the more common defining characteristics of mary sues is that they end up with the perfect love lives despite not putting much effort into it. That's one of the main reasons why Bella Swan is considered a mary sue: her love interests and how they keep falling head over heels for her. In comparison, Furiosa and Sarah Connor didn't have love interests and they weren't referred to as mary sues. What makes Rey a mary sue is that she's able to break in-universe laws just so she can be put on a pedestal. Captain Marvel (and other MCU characters) don't do that, which is why I don't consider any of the MCU characters mary sues. But believe me, Rey is a definite mary sue. Not because she's single, not because she's strong, not because she's female, not because she doesn't smile, not because she's skilled, not even because she's too capable... but because she's too capable without it making sense, to the point where it's obvious that the story is bending itself backwards just to make her look good. As for Weshley Crusher, well, have your friends ever discussed mary sues with you prior to Rey or Bella Swan? Because if they ever did, I'd be curious which examples they used if Weshley Crusher never came up in one of these discussions.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 27, 2019 5:51:58 GMT
That's an observation of mine about why I think certain Mary Sues make the cut. It's a vibe I get from certain comments and conversations, like smiling more. Rey I think about sometimes because if there's one thing not present about her character in Star Wars, it's that she's not attracted to anybody. Lest of all anybody a male viewer might see themselves in. She's one of not that many characters I can think of who has no romantic interest in anybody and is a raging Mary Sue according to some. I don't think it's far-fetched they could be related, especially when it seems like part of what makes a Mary Sue is atypical behavior that offends or defies what's considered customary, like being a love interest.
I've no idea about Bella Swan. It was explained to me once before here and not to sound cruel to that person, but I think I was a little too generous in accepting it. I was more blown away by them being familiar enough with Twilight to make such an educated case.
I wasn't kidding about Wesley Crusher. I've never heard him referred to as a Mary Sue except for the Wikipedia Mary Sue page. I believe you, but I'm just as impressed with it. I've no shortage of nerd-culture, book reading friends as well. None of my friends or anyone I know calls Crusher a Mary Sue, or any of the Youtube videos I've watched over the years. Not a one.
The thing I find with the last sentence (with which I largely agree, by the way), is yes, it's easy for people to assume that it's a negative reaction to a strong woman. The thing is correct or not, when it's what people do it becomes the norm.
I agree with that last part of your statement. What we have here is a bunch of people misusing the word "mary sue" to the point where the common interpretation of it is starting to become incorrect. Lately, the term has been used in conjunction with other sexist rants, but that doesn't mean the term itself is sexist. This is why I don't hesitate to correct people here when I see the word misused, because it is now mutating into something that it was never meant to be. You mentioned that a female character not having a love interest may be grounds for it to be called a mary sue... and I have to disagree. It's actually the opposite. One of the more common defining characteristics of mary sues is that they end up with the perfect love lives despite not putting much effort into it. That's one of the main reasons why Bella Swan is considered a mary sue: her love interests and how they keep falling head over heels for her. In comparison, Furiosa and Sarah Connor didn't have love interests and they weren't referred to as mary sues. What makes Rey a mary sue is that she's able to break in-universe laws just so she can be put on a pedestal. Captain Marvel (and other MCU characters) don't do that, which is why I don't consider any of the MCU characters mary sues. But believe me, Rey is a definite mary sue. Not because she's single, not because she's strong, not because she's female, not because she doesn't smile, not because she's skilled, not even because she's too capable... but because she's too capable without it making sense, to the point where it's obvious that the story is bending itself backwards just to make her look good. As for Weshley Crusher, well, have your friends ever discussed mary sues with you prior to Rey or Bella Swan? Because if they ever did, I'd be curious which examples they used if Weshley Crusher never came up in one of these discussions. What to do about Wesley Crusher. If I brought him up as an example, I would expect somebody to reference his name. Wesley is Gene Roddenberry's middle name, so that may fill in the wish-fulfillment/author-insertion component of what makes a Mary Sue. I would be tempted to bring up the episode where he was involved with a guest-starring Ashley Judd. She was practically eating out of the palm of his hand while he explained the ship and solved the mystery of that episode. All while on vacation too. It's like her character was made to be waiting for him. I got a little ahead of myself earlier. I saw your observation about Dwayne Johnson. I thought about it too, especially during Rampage. Animal lover, dream job on lock, knows how to fly a plane (or helicopter?), and turns down the office hottie for a date because he prefers the company of animals. And he looks like The Rock. In my experience, I find that some men are more off put by female characters who're the Dwayne Johnson of their films. It could be because of attraction not reciprocated, or, it could be because certain women turn their suitors into babbling fools just by virtue existing. Not literally, but more in the sense that they lose their composure while courting women in ways that are usually written for women courting men. I'd much rather be The Rock's beating off women with a stick than be a man trying to get noticed by Bella. Terrible. In the Wesley Crusher/Ashley Judd case, she was attracted to everything in him that made her special. She already possessed all those qualities, but we're expected to believe she admired them more in him than herself because he looks like Will Wheaton?  You know what character I'm relieved hasn't gotten the Mary Sue treatment? Mako Mori from Pacific Rim. Not that I want a case to be made for it. It's more of a 'don't look a gift horse in the mouth' kind of observation, like with Furiosa. Rey from Star Wars. Rey from Star Wars. Star Wars is kind of a shit show right now, in my opinion. I'm trying to lighten up on the Mary Sue idea but it doesn't immediately sink in for Rey. For a number of reasons: 1) it's Star Wars, where in-universe laws don't seem too binding, 2) the last two films opened up the possibility that you don't need the force in the family to wield it, 3) she cannibalizes a ship for parts every day, 4) she lives by herself with nothing to do but be self-reliant for a living. The latter being especially important because her life is an unknown variable until reaching her current age. Isn't it just a given somebody taught her how to fly a ship? The most ridiculous thing I think she did (maybe it's Mary Sue material?) is Jedi Mind Tricking that storm trooper into releasing her and leaving his gun. That was whack. But is it that much crazier than Luke force-negotiating the torpedo down the shaft in the first Death Star? Luke was still pretty new to the force by then. There is also the possibility that Kylo Ren is lying, and that Rey's parents might not be drunks who sold her for drinking money. She could still be a force-baby. It wouldn't be the first time either, since Luke was told his father was some guy who worked on a spice freighter. I think Rey is going dark. I think it would make the most narrative sense because it's the only explanation for why her powers are developing so quickly. I think anger consumes people faster than peace, and that makes the darkness within her extra fertile for the force. It's why I think she was able to force-move those boulders at the end of The Last Jedi. If Rey doesn't go dark, I think her arc will be a true failure. One for the ages.
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Post by merh on Mar 27, 2019 7:34:15 GMT
I really don't get the whole Mary Sue thing. I understand it's from Star Trek fan fiction, but it seems people love throwing it around anymore. Its the hero. They're supposed to save the day. It's even become a joke, the hero able to do everything so it is recognized Carol isn't perfect. She followed the Kree in their wrong war & corrected course when she discovered her error. So they don't need to be perfect. It's better they can make mistakes so kids can see them learn from them. I don't get the hate for Antman & Wasp. I like it way more than Antman. Wasp kicks ass. Maybe what I'm saying it it may seem they are all the same, but they have their differences if one is paying attention. We're all more familiar with the boys of the genre & those we aren't, we know the stereotypes that we fill a lot in. Drax is a stereotype, isn't he? Peter Quill? Unfortunately the stereotypes of women run to negative quickly. A male character that sleeps around is a stud. Female characters who sleep around are sluts. Women who stand up for themselves are bitches. A man who listens to his partner is henpecked So, yeah, there's not a lot of room before we run to negative Mary sues are more discussed and far more understood in the fictional book reading/writing community. That's how I first learned about it, especially when I started writing my own fanfiction and short stories. In comparison, the term has only been recently heard by most of the movie-watching community, and I find majority of people in this community don't truly understand what it is and just keep throwing it around. It's the character that's a thinly-veiled stand-in for the author. Hope is more Nebula than your 3 other choices. Widow, Gamora, & CM have usurped/kidnapped personas. I doubt Widow volunteered for the Red Room as much as was selected. She was indoctrinated to become a certain ideal personality, not unlike Dottie Underwood in Agent Carter. They are made to be blank slates, but Widow has "become aware" as it were. Her basic mode is do the job she has been ordered to do, ask no questions. One really doesn't envision her painting her nails watching Gilmore Girls, do we? She has a bit of a cipher, isn't she? It's what she was made to be & it is what she is. It's a thing a lot of gals learn. Watch the room, see what's expected. Smile. Don't make waves. Waves get one noticed which is exactly what Widow usually doesn't want. Like Loki, she watches & waits, an observer, but Loki is playing a longer game. Widow has a mission so she is looking for the easiest in so she can get out swiftly. Everything is the mission. Its different from the comic where she has romantic entanglements. Look how everyone thought she was with Hawkeye, then Steve. It's how she plays it. Does that sound in any way, shape or form like Gamora or Carol or Hope? Gamora is a captive. Thanos is strong like a god she despises but can never escape. She wants to escape, looks for her out, but ultimately fatalistically doesnt believe she will ever manage to get away. Its like a battered woman. She dreams of getting away, but knows he'll find her & beat her for trying. She's become what he wants her to be, not what she dreamed of as a child, but at least she had dreams, unlike Widow. She has more of her original self left of the 3 kidnapped gals, but she locks it away, protects it. Widow is the mission/duty. Gamora is whatever to survive to be able to live her dream. There is a glimmer of hope deep down. Hope was abandoned. She lost both her parents, though her dad was still there, but like Howard Stark, distant to the child who wanted a parent. Stark did it for his child's good, to help him to be all he could become. Pym did it because he was grieving, but could only see his own pain, not Hope's. My kid was 10 when my husband died, but I made sure to take care of my kid's needs even letting his ashes stay in her room because she needed it. So Hope seems to feel daddy hated her so she hated him back. Everything she did was to hurt him, but it was really just to be seen. She, like many abused children (abandonment is abuse), saw it as her fault. If she were more lovable, her daddy wouldn't have abandoned her which turned to anger, likely around the rebellious teen years. It's all to make her father praise her, acknowledge her. She knows she's good. She's made the scores, etc. to prove she is deserving of daddy's affection & praise only to receive none. He became the enemy. She is an achiever. Yes, one can say that about the others, but hers is from a place of proving she is worthy while Widow & Gamora are doing it from a place of placating. I was an "A" student because it was easier. The teachers left me alone because they assumed I knew the answer. This is where Gamora & Widow are. By excelling, they got less attention from their keepers. Nebula was the one who didn't measure up, who was constantly modified every time she failed against Gamora so her resentment is more like Loki hating Odin & Thor. Thor was a bright light Loki could never match no matter how hard he tried. Nebula also could never outshine Gamora. Carol, like Bucky, is Robocop. Like Murphy, both were heroes in their prior lives only to have those lives erased. Widow is a cipher, blending in to accomplish the mission which is more Bucky, only they didnt care with Bucky because they just wiped his memories anytime he remembered & as with Nebula, as powerful as Bucky was, there was no escape. The Kree were a bit smarter. They didn't have to keep wiping Carol's mind because they inserted a persona on top of her own to make her their servant. Bits of her original personality peeked through, but they mostly controlled her. Ok. Phone dropped. I think I need to go back to sleep Ripley was a bitch. Sonja was a barbarian. I'm sure she was seen as a bitch. Sara Connor was a bitch. Furiosa originally served the Male dominated set-up. Men came after her when she defied them. Alita was an alien. She had no memories because of the battle. Normal amnesia.
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