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Post by snsurone on Mar 23, 2019 16:31:27 GMT
In most western movies and TV shows, all the saloon girls did was serve drinks, chat up the customers, and maybe sing or dance.
But it was never revealed that they were actually prostitutes.
Of course, the Hays Office would have prevented that in the '40's and '50's.
Arguably, the most famous saloon entertainer was Frenchy in DESTRY RIDES AGAIN.
In later years, after the Hayes Office faded away, it was openly revealed that these women were indeed hookers.
Most notable example was McCABE AND MRS. MILLER.
Your thoughts?
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Post by mikef6 on Mar 23, 2019 16:40:03 GMT
Also Clint Eastwood's "Forgiven." One of the saloon ladies is beaten by a john after which the other working girls take up a collection to hire someone for payback.
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Post by wmcclain on Mar 23, 2019 16:41:25 GMT
I think it was often just understood. There was no law against the audience understanding things.
In My Darling Clementine (1946), the bordello, madam and women are just there, part of the community, shown but not otherwise mentioned. No big deal.
In Buchanan Rides Alone (1958), when Randolph Scott is told that a room, a steak, and a bottle of whiskey are all $10 each, he says "This sure is a $10 town." He exchanges glances with the saloon girl and moves away.
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Post by teleadm on Mar 23, 2019 20:16:21 GMT
Offourse they were prostitutes! .
or Women who brings pleasure to men who have just taken a bath and shaved that has come to a town after months on the prairie.
As mentioned Marlene did it a few times more than Destry, but Marlene could also hold her own, one didn't just mess around with her, hard boiled eggs and Brandy, if you didn't like that combination, just forget it and dissapear into Alaskan vulture meat.
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Post by Doghouse6 on Mar 23, 2019 21:11:37 GMT
One of the best hailed from London, of all places: Angela Lansbury, all glammed up for The Harvey Girls Below, she gives "good girl" Judy Garland some attitude:  But call her hooker or hostess, she displays the requisite heart of gold when she sets Garland straight...  ...and sends her off in the final reel to wedded bliss with John Hodiak, for whose affections they rivaled.  |
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Post by Isapop on Mar 23, 2019 22:19:28 GMT
According to this article, it's a misconception that saloon girls were necessarily prostitutes: "The second type of “bad girl” was the saloon and dance hall women, who contrary to some popular thinking, were generally not prostitutes — this tended to occur only in the very shabbiest class of saloons." www.legendsofamerica.com/we-paintedlady/
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Post by london777 on Mar 23, 2019 22:19:29 GMT
Where I live now it is assumed that all bar girls are available for paid sex, also girls working in pool-halls and car-washes. They cannot live on their minute wages and only occasional small tips.
The management usually charges a "salida" or leaving fee if the girl leaves the premises during her shift to recompense them for her lost work input. That way the management cannot be charged with profiting from prostitution. Well, that's the theory anyway, but there is no real law here. It is like the Wild West in so many ways.
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Post by london777 on Mar 23, 2019 22:26:46 GMT
One of the best hailed from London, of all places: "Of all places", indeed. I can well understand your surprise that a prostitute should hail from London. Beefeaters and Pearly Kings, perhaps, but a prostitute! I'm shocked, shocked...
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Post by Doghouse6 on Mar 24, 2019 0:29:09 GMT
One of the best hailed from London, of all places: "Of all places", indeed. I can well understand your surprise that a prostitute should hail from London. Beefeaters and Pearly Kings, perhaps, but a prostitute! I'm shocked, shocked... I had more in mind the old west saloon milieu, but point well taken. I know, of course, about London prostitutes because I saw Miriam Hopkins* in Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde. *Who hailed from, of all places, Savannah, Georgia.
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Post by BATouttaheck on Mar 24, 2019 2:49:32 GMT
According to this article, it's a misconception that saloon girls were necessarily prostitutes: "The second type of “bad girl” was the saloon and dance hall women, who contrary to some popular thinking, were generally not prostitutes — this tended to occur only in the very shabbiest class of saloons." www.legendsofamerica.com/we-paintedlady/ Interesting article about the difference between saloons and brothels and dance hall girls and prostitutes ! Thanks for posting it . 
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Post by BATouttaheck on Mar 24, 2019 3:11:14 GMT
More from the above article ...
In the early California Gold Rush of 1849, dance halls began to appear and spread throughout later settlements. While these saloons usually offered games of chance, their chief attraction was dancing. The customer generally paid 75¢ to $1.00 for a ticket to dance, with the proceeds being split between the dance hall girl and the saloon owner. After the dance, the girl would steer the gentleman to the bar, where she would make an additional commission from the sale of a drink.
Dancing usually began about 8:00 p.m., ranging from waltzes to schottisches with each “turn” lasting about 15 minutes. A popular girl would average 50 dances a night, sometimes making more a night than a working man could make in a month. Dancehall girls made enough money that it was very rare for them to double as a prostitute, in fact, many former “soiled doves” found they could make more money as a dance hall girl.
To the saloon owner, the dance girls were a profitable commodity and gentlemen were discouraged from paying too much attention to any one girl, as dancehall owners lost more women to marriage than in any other way.
Though most patrons respected the girls, violent deaths were one of their biggest professional hazards. More than a hundred cases were documented, but there were, no doubt, probably many more. One saloon girl, who was savagely beaten, had repelled the advances of a drunken customer. When a cowboy approached her, she responded: “I don’t mind the black eye, but he called me a whore.”
It's a rather eye opening article and well worth reading (imo)
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Post by snsurone on Mar 24, 2019 11:01:02 GMT
Offourse they were prostitutes! . or Women who brings pleasure to men who have just taken a bath and shaved that has come to a town after months on the prairie. As mentioned Marlene did it a few times more than Destry, but Marlene could also hold her own, one didn't just mess around with her, hard boiled eggs and Brandy, if you didn't like that combination, just forget it and dissapear into Alaskan vulture meat. Tele, I can cope with Marlene and brandy, but the only way I like eggs is either scrambled or as an omelette. LOL. I'll wager STD's were rife in the Old West. Not to mention back-alley abortions! BTW, even in the novel GWTW, the idea that Belle Watling's "girls" were prostitutes was more implied than actually stated. And in the radio version of GUNSMOKE, it was clear that Miss Kitty was a hooker and a madam, whereas on TV, the worst of her "sins" was that she owned a saloon. Another example is the 1929 DeMille movie LADY OF THE PAVEMENTS, released in both silent and part-talkie reels. In this film, Lupe Velez played the title role, which was assumed to be a prostitute. Actually, all she did was sing in a pub; she was really a "good girl" who eventually wins the hero (played by pre-"Hopalong Cassidy" William Boyd.
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Post by Lebowskidoo 🦞 on Mar 24, 2019 12:36:25 GMT
Just watched The Great Scout and Cathouse Thursday (1976) and by the 70's they were making it pretty clear they were all prostitutes. With the term Cathouse in the title, there was no hiding the fact. Seems unusual still to see nudity in a western, which was always a rarity. Kay Lenz plays the prostitute, Thursday. Sylvia Miles, with her distinctive voice and a series of larger and larger hats, plays the madam, Mike.   |
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Post by BATouttaheck on Mar 24, 2019 13:27:40 GMT
As many of us know, Hollywood is not always accurate and does tend to make up its own "history".
What is only suggested or hinted at is open to interpretation.
New films are more blunt about prostitution BUT not always any more historically accurate than the older films.
Assuming that the owner of a saloon HAD to be a madame and the owner/runner of a brothel to me is pure speculation.
I would like to see this discussion develop more into one on historical accuracy vs Hollywood but <shrug>
Meanwhile another bit of info to add
Saloons of The Old West by Richard Erdoes talks about Hurdy Gurdy Girls. Tt’s a saloon where the men went to drink and dance with a good-looking woman. At eight o’clock, the men filed in, paid the ante for the first round of drinks and their partner. Then they’d grab a hurdy gurdy girl and dance either a sovienne, waltz, mazourka or a schottische. After their allotted time, the women would take their partners to the bar where they bought another round of drinks and paid for their next dance. A good hurdy-gurdy girl could net twenty-five dollars plus her share of the drinks. Better than the crib girls were doing in Fort Worth. And sex was not expected.
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Post by snsurone on Mar 24, 2019 13:49:52 GMT
I remember that movie, Lebow.
Especially the scene with a bewildered Lee Marvin lying on his back as a naked hooker straddled him, her boobs flapping in his face as she pummeled his shoulder.
Poor Lee!
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Post by BATouttaheck on Mar 25, 2019 14:17:32 GMT
Thing is some of the movies are about prostitutes and brothels and some are about saloon girls and, as the articles say, they are not necessarily the same thing. Hollywood History is known to not always be historically accurate. Think "the Greatest Showman"s Barnum and Jenny Lind relationship as a recent example of faux history. Wondering if anyone else has read the article mentioned by Isapop or checked out any other sources of information. |
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Post by london777 on Mar 25, 2019 17:47:20 GMT
Thing is some of the movies are about prostitutes and brothels and some are about saloon girls and, as the articles say, they are not necessarily the same thing. You seem very anxious to defend the honor of non-hooking saloon girls, BAT. Is your ancestry involved? We are all friends here. No-one will hold it against you.
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Post by BATouttaheck on Mar 25, 2019 19:08:47 GMT
Thing is some of the movies are about prostitutes and brothels and some are about saloon girls and, as the articles say, they are not necessarily the same thing. You seem very anxious to defend the honor of non-hooking saloon girls, BAT. Is your ancestry involved? We are all friends here. No-one will hold it against you. Did you read the articles and want to talk about them or do you just want to keep waving your self proclaimed curmudgeon banner and make snarky personal remarks at me ?
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Post by taylorfirst1 on Mar 25, 2019 19:52:05 GMT
They were not all prostitutes.
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Post by snsurone on Mar 25, 2019 23:03:25 GMT
Thing is some of the movies are about prostitutes and brothels and some are about saloon girls and, as the articles say, they are not necessarily the same thing. You seem very anxious to defend the honor of non-hooking saloon girls, BAT. Is your ancestry involved? We are all friends here. No-one will hold it against you. We're not all friends, london. BATouttaheck has been blocked by yours truly.
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