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Post by Vassaggo on Apr 2, 2019 16:21:47 GMT
Ok for the love of god how is he supposed to know those were dummy grenades. From that scene? Even Tommy Lee Jones character tilts his head to read and make sure the grenades were dummies of the small print on the box.
Well why would there be live grenades during basic? It does happen. In the 90's my brother was a Marine. 2 things happened with grenades one on the range one not on the range. On the range a kid got nervous and instead of throwing the grenade over the little mini wall he throw it directly into the wall. Causing everyone to dive. The DI had to grab the kid because he froze and forcibly throw him into the side ditch that is beside the fox hole behind the mini wall for that express purpose. My bro said it looked like the kid tried to throw it at the wall. The kid was 2 feet away from the wall. The kid flamed out in another 3 weeks. You can say that's on the range there's no way a grenade would be loose off of range, but you would be wrong.
The other incident was some fucking idiot took a live grenade from the range. This is not supposed to happen. EVERYTHING is counted and logged. In fact when firing weapons everyone had to collect the brass after it was over. Everyone had to collect ever bit of brass. It's logged if 500 rounds are fired 500 pieces of brass had to be found and collected or you couldn't leave. Unspent rounds are logged and collected compared to the rounds fired. Same with grenades, but during an inspection a live grenade was found in a foot locker. The kid who had it said he thought that it was cool and wanted a souvenir.
So it's plausible for a live grenade to be away from the range especially in 1940's ramping up during a war.
Also as late as the 90's some DI weren't above using live ammo to "Train" ie scare the crap out of Marines. It's against the rules (as is physically punching and hitting privates). My brother had his pinkie toe broken by one of is Instructors for saying "Ok" instead of "sir yes sir" by one of the nicer DI. He was on the range and was pulling his shots. The nice DI told him to get up and he showed him what he was doing wrong. AFter the demo the nice DI said no get back down and you try. My brother said "Ok" brain farting. The DI took the weapon and slammed it on his foot crushing his pinkie toe and breaking it even through the boot. My bro said as soon as his knee hit the ground from the pain he shot back up and said "Sir yes sir." Another DI broke a kids jaw with a week left of boot camp when practicing the parade march for graduation. The kid was out of step and couldn't get instep. The DI leaped off his little platform diving over people and hit the kid in the jaw.
Now the live fire usage. My brother saw a kid complaining that the gun noises where hurting his ears even through protection. The kid thought that he was whispering. And the range was one of the few places in boot camp you were allowed to talk sparingly to other recruits. You know communications is part of safety. The DI heard him told the kid to stand up put the rifle on the kids shoulder facing down range. Told the kid to take off his protection and fired the rifle by the kids ear. You could say well that was on the range, but in the 60's my Dad was in the Air Force.
He had a gun fired at his feet off the range by a sadistic Instructor, was thrown out of a 2 story window, and placed in a trashcan with 3 packs of cigarettes and 4 cokes.
Now in that scene with the guy throwing the grenade, tilting to read to make sure it's a dummy, Steve not seeing where the grenade came from before he reacted, no chance or reading the box from where he was and everyone reacting to it as a live grenade then yeah everyone thought it was live grenade until it didn't go off.
There is no point in having to dissect this scene this badly, but given what is shown. There is no reason for everyone in the scene except Erskine and the guy throwing the grenade to know it was a dummy.
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Post by DC-Fan on Apr 2, 2019 16:22:27 GMT
He didn't know, just as the others who ran away from it also didn't know. You seem to miss the point. You say he didn't know. I'm asking how could he not have known? This is the same guy who just a few minutes earlier demonstrated that he was smarter than EVERY trainee in the past 17 years by being the first trainee in 17 years to get the flag down simply by lowering the flagpole. So how does this same guy who's supposedly smarter than EVERY trainee in the past 17 years not know that a grenade taken from a box labeled "Training Grenades" and tossed by the Colonel at his own trainees not in the middle of a battlefield but in the middle of an army training camp wasn't a fake grenade? As for the other trainees not knowing, well, it was already established just a few minutes earlier with the flagpole scene that none of the other trainees were as smart as Rogers. Rogers is supposedly the smartest trainee in 17 years so how could he then be so stupid just a few minutes later to think that was a real grenade? Either Rogers knew the grenade was a fake, or that's just bad and inconsistent writing. An efficient way of getting the point across that he's brave But it didn't get the point across because it was bad and inconsistent writing. Basically, the scene of Rogers jumping on the grenade as an act of bravery only works if they didn't have the earlier scene just a few minutes earlier of Rogers outsmarting all the other trainees and being the first trainee in 17 years to get the flag down simply by lowering the flagpole. By having the flagpole scene, the scene of Rogers jumping on the grenade as a act of bravery doesn't work because how could anyone who outsmarted EVERY trainee in the past 17 years be so stupid to think that a grenade taken from a box labeled "Training Grenades" and tossed by the Colonel at his own trainees not in the middle of a battlefield but in the middle of an army training camp was a real grenade?
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Post by Rey Kahuka on Apr 2, 2019 16:25:17 GMT
Ok for the love of god how is he supposed to know those were dummy grenades. From that scene? Even Tommy Lee Jones character tilts his head to read and make sure the grenades were dummies of the small print on the box. Well why would there be live grenades during basic? It does happen. In the 90's my brother was a Marine. 2 things happened with grenades one on the range one not on the range. On the range a kid got nervous and instead of throwing the grenade over the little mini wall he throw it directly into the wall. Causing everyone to dive. The DI had to grab the kid because he froze and forcibly throw him into the side ditch that is beside the fox hole behind the mini wall for that express purpose. My bro said it looked like the kid tried to throw it at the wall. The kid was 2 feet away from the wall. The kid flamed out in another 3 weeks. You can say that's on the range there's no way a grenade would be loose off of range, but you would be wrong. The other incident was some fucking idiot took a live grenade from the range. This is not supposed to happen. EVERYTHING is counted and logged. In fact when firing weapons everyone had to collect the brass after it was over. Everyone had to collect ever bit of brass. It's logged if 500 rounds are fired 500 pieces of brass had to be found and collected or you couldn't leave. Unspent rounds are logged and collected compared to the rounds fired. Same with grenades, but during an inspection a live grenade was found in a foot locker. The kid who had it said he thought that it was cool and wanted a souvenir. So it's plausible for a live grenade to be away from the range especially in 1940's ramping up during a war. Also as late as the 90's some DI weren't above using live ammo to "Train" ie scare the crap out of Marines. It's against the rules (as is physically punching and hitting privates). My brother had his pinkie toe broken by one of is Instructors for saying "Ok" instead of "sir yes sir" by one of the nicer DI. He was on the range and was pulling his shots. The nice DI told him to get up and he showed him what he was doing wrong. AFter the demo the nice DI said no get back down and you try. My brother said "Ok" brain farting. The DI took the weapon and slammed it on his foot crushing his pinkie toe and breaking it even through the boot. My bro said as soon as his knee hit the ground from the pain he shot back up and said "Sir yes sir." Another DI broke a kids jaw with a week left of boot camp when practicing the parade march for graduation. The kid was out of step and couldn't get instep. The DI leaped off his little platform diving over people and hit the kid in the jaw. Now the live fire usage. My brother saw a kid complaining that the gun noises where hurting his ears even through protection. The kid thought that he was whispering. And the range was one of the few places in boot camp you were allowed to talk sparingly to other recruits. You know communications is part of safety. The DI heard him told the kid to stand up put the rifle on the kids shoulder facing down range. Told the kid to take off his protection and fired the rifle by the kids ear. You could say well that was on the range, but in the 60's my Dad was in the Air Force. He had a gun fired at his feet off the range by a sadistic Instructor, was thrown out of a 2 story window, and placed in a trashcan with 3 packs of cigarettes and 4 cokes. Now in that scene with the guy throwing the grenade, tilting to read to make sure it's a dummy, Steve not seeing where the grenade came from before he reacted, no chance or reading the box from where he was and everyone reacting to it as a live grenade then yeah everyone thought it was live grenade until it didn't go off. There is no point in having to dissect this scene this badly, but given what is shown. There is no reason for everyone in the scene except Erskine and the guy throwing the grenade to know it was a dummy. The scene is great, these guys are being intentionally obtuse because they like to argue with Marvel fans. You can't blame them, I'd certainly rather talk about MCU movies than Fox or DCEU's offerings.
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Post by DC-Fan on Apr 2, 2019 16:25:42 GMT
There wasn't any previous indication that Peggy had superior intelligence. But they made it a point to emphasize that Rogers had superior intelligence that he was the first trainee in 17 years to get the flag down simply by lowering the flagpole. Then a few minutes later, they made Rogers get a case of stupidity by thinking that a grenade taken from a box labeled "Training Grenades" and tossed by the Colonel at his own trainees not in the middle of a battlefield but in the middle of an army training camp was a real grenade. Basically, the scene of Rogers jumping on the grenade as an act of bravery only works if they didn't have the earlier scene just a few minutes earlier of Rogers outsmarting all the other trainees and being the first trainee in 17 years to get the flag down simply by lowering the flagpole. By having the flagpole scene, the scene of Rogers jumping on the grenade as a act of bravery doesn't work because how could anyone who outsmarted EVERY trainee in the past 17 years be so stupid to think that a grenade taken from a box labeled "Training Grenades" and tossed by the Colonel at his own trainees not in the middle of a battlefield but in the middle of an army training camp was a real grenade?
Either Rogers knew the grenade was a fake, or that's just bad and inconsistent writing.Or they're just using different scenes on purpose to showcase Rogers' various and specific qualities. And my point is that the different scenes are inconsistent. In 1 scene, Rogers is the smartest trainee in the past 17 years. Then in another scene just a few minutes later, Rogers is dumber than Gilligan on Gilligan's Island. That's bad and inconsistent writing.
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Post by Vassaggo on Apr 2, 2019 16:42:06 GMT
Ok for the love of god how is he supposed to know those were dummy grenades. From that scene? Even Tommy Lee Jones character tilts his head to read and make sure the grenades were dummies of the small print on the box. Well why would there be live grenades during basic? It does happen. In the 90's my brother was a Marine. 2 things happened with grenades one on the range one not on the range. On the range a kid got nervous and instead of throwing the grenade over the little mini wall he throw it directly into the wall. Causing everyone to dive. The DI had to grab the kid because he froze and forcibly throw him into the side ditch that is beside the fox hole behind the mini wall for that express purpose. My bro said it looked like the kid tried to throw it at the wall. The kid was 2 feet away from the wall. The kid flamed out in another 3 weeks. You can say that's on the range there's no way a grenade would be loose off of range, but you would be wrong. The other incident was some fucking idiot took a live grenade from the range. This is not supposed to happen. EVERYTHING is counted and logged. In fact when firing weapons everyone had to collect the brass after it was over. Everyone had to collect ever bit of brass. It's logged if 500 rounds are fired 500 pieces of brass had to be found and collected or you couldn't leave. Unspent rounds are logged and collected compared to the rounds fired. Same with grenades, but during an inspection a live grenade was found in a foot locker. The kid who had it said he thought that it was cool and wanted a souvenir. So it's plausible for a live grenade to be away from the range especially in 1940's ramping up during a war. Also as late as the 90's some DI weren't above using live ammo to "Train" ie scare the crap out of Marines. It's against the rules (as is physically punching and hitting privates). My brother had his pinkie toe broken by one of is Instructors for saying "Ok" instead of "sir yes sir" by one of the nicer DI. He was on the range and was pulling his shots. The nice DI told him to get up and he showed him what he was doing wrong. AFter the demo the nice DI said no get back down and you try. My brother said "Ok" brain farting. The DI took the weapon and slammed it on his foot crushing his pinkie toe and breaking it even through the boot. My bro said as soon as his knee hit the ground from the pain he shot back up and said "Sir yes sir." Another DI broke a kids jaw with a week left of boot camp when practicing the parade march for graduation. The kid was out of step and couldn't get instep. The DI leaped off his little platform diving over people and hit the kid in the jaw. Now the live fire usage. My brother saw a kid complaining that the gun noises where hurting his ears even through protection. The kid thought that he was whispering. And the range was one of the few places in boot camp you were allowed to talk sparingly to other recruits. You know communications is part of safety. The DI heard him told the kid to stand up put the rifle on the kids shoulder facing down range. Told the kid to take off his protection and fired the rifle by the kids ear. You could say well that was on the range, but in the 60's my Dad was in the Air Force. He had a gun fired at his feet off the range by a sadistic Instructor, was thrown out of a 2 story window, and placed in a trashcan with 3 packs of cigarettes and 4 cokes. Now in that scene with the guy throwing the grenade, tilting to read to make sure it's a dummy, Steve not seeing where the grenade came from before he reacted, no chance or reading the box from where he was and everyone reacting to it as a live grenade then yeah everyone thought it was live grenade until it didn't go off. There is no point in having to dissect this scene this badly, but given what is shown. There is no reason for everyone in the scene except Erskine and the guy throwing the grenade to know it was a dummy. The scene is great, these guys are being intentionally obtuse because they like to argue with Marvel fans. You can't blame them, I'd certainly rather talk about MCU movies than Fox or DCEU's offerings. I guess. I forgot to mention the fact that Boot Camp is basically 9-13 weeks (depending on branch) of breaking one down and rebuilding a person into the soldier they want. Part of that rebuilding train into a person that every gun is loaded and an ordinance live. NO MATTER WHAT. It's a form of brainwashing yes but essential. It so ingrained that to this day 25+ years later its a fact with my brother that ever gun is loaded even if the slide is open and you can see that there is no round in the chamber.
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Post by Power Ranger on Apr 2, 2019 16:51:30 GMT
Jesus H Christ, it's amazing how some of you fanboys keep getting it wrong. The flag pole scene wasn't about the power of observation, it was about the ability to think outside the box. The means to lower the flagpole was as clear as day, but it was assumed to be a pole climbing exercise by the other recruits. Only Rogers had the wherewithall to look at the task with an open mind and come to the correct solution ... one that was embarrassingly obvious, after the fact ... hiding in plain sight. The hand grenade scene showed Rogers willingness to sacrifice himself for others. Rogers reacted instantly, instinctively, when he saw the threat to everyone around him. It was a scenerio where there was no time to think, no time to ponder the possibility that it might be a training grenade. The claim that Steve Rogers promotion to Captain meant that someone else lost their promotion has already been destroyed by the knucklehead who argued that there had to be a fixed limit to the number of Captains, otherwise everyone would have been promoted to Captain. That argument is so profoundly stupid that it proves the opposite. A DNA test for Killmonger? Didn't Killmonger have one of those glowy lip tattoos that proved beyond a shadow of a doubt who he was? A high tech Wakandan glowy lip tattoo, linked to an individuals genetic code and impossible to duplicate or forge. Do we really want MCU movies catering to an audience so stupid they couldn't figure that out on their own? That's what the DCEU is for! Come on guys, do we really need another Always Wrong? BTW, was Wonder Woman a coward, indifferent, or just plain lazy for sitting out WW2 while true heroes like Steve Rogers was risking his life to save the world? Its problematic to assume to know a director’s intention, even when it may appear obvious. There are various literary theories which posit that the director’s intention is irrelevant when exploring meaning in a text. Some even suggest that meaning can be determined from the exact opposite from what the director may be appearing to convey. I’m not trying to be a prat, it’s a long time since I studied literary analysis and I didn’t learn much anyway. But DC-Fan’s interpretation is compelling, and it is supported by what is depicted on the screen.
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Post by bud47 on Apr 2, 2019 17:19:12 GMT
Or they're just using different scenes on purpose to showcase Rogers' various and specific qualities. And my point is that the different scenes are inconsistent. In 1 scene, Rogers is the smartest trainee in the past 17 years. Then in another scene just a few minutes later, Rogers is dumber than Gilligan on Gilligan's Island. That's bad and inconsistent writing. My point is that they did that on purpose to highlight and emphasize his individual qualities so that they are very apparent to the audience. Have one scene highlight his intelligence, have another highlight his bravery/selflessness. Have another scene highlight his will and perseverance, etc. Then when he becomes Captain America, it all comes together. It's deliberate.
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Post by DC-Fan on Apr 2, 2019 17:23:35 GMT
And my point is that the different scenes are inconsistent. In 1 scene, Rogers is the smartest trainee in the past 17 years. Then in another scene just a few minutes later, Rogers is dumber than Gilligan on Gilligan's Island. That's bad and inconsistent writing. My point is that they did that on purpose to highlight and emphasize his individual qualities so that they are very apparent to the audience. Have one scene highlight his intelligence, have another highlight his bravery/selflessness. Have another scene highlight his will and perseverance, etc. Then when he becomes Captain America, it all comes together. It's deliberate. And my point is that it didn't work. Because the scene that's supposed to highlight his bravery/selflessness only highlighted his stupidity and contradicted a scene from just a few minutes earlier. It was just bad and inconsistent writing.
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Post by sostie on Apr 2, 2019 17:54:54 GMT
My point is that they did that on purpose to highlight and emphasize his individual qualities so that they are very apparent to the audience. Have one scene highlight his intelligence, have another highlight his bravery/selflessness. Have another scene highlight his will and perseverance, etc. Then when he becomes Captain America, it all comes together. It's deliberate. And my point is that it didn't work. Because the scene that's supposed to highlight his bravery/selflessness only highlighted his stupidity and contradicted a scene from just a few minutes earlier. It was just bad and inconsistent writing. No the point is it didn't work for you. And not because of any bad writing but solely because it is an MCU film Do you not see how sad this is. You hate MCU, love DCEU, but spend hardly anytime on the latter's board and most of the time in this one. And what do you do, spend all your time dissing MCU films. Do you honestly think your observations/theories/criticisms are so amazing that people will suddenly see these films in a different light? Not sure if your persistence is more admirable or laughable. Fine. Carry on. You fail pretty much every time you think you have something insightful to say, or expose yourself as a hypocrite. In the long term it doesn't matter.....there are many many people here and around the world that have followed and enjoyed most of the MCU movies, and will be treated to probably one of the biggest cinema events ever in under a month...I almost feel sorry for you.
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Post by scabab on Apr 2, 2019 18:57:13 GMT
You seem to miss the point. You say he didn't know. I'm asking how could he not have known? Because he didn't see the box labelled training grenades and so he thought he was a real grenade. Again not particularly complicated. A person also isn't a genius for being able to obtain a flag from a pole, it was a small bit of a problem solving, completely separate from acting on instinct. It did, even very small children would have easily have grasped what they were getting at with that scene. It was made perfectly clear. You would have understood it just fine if it was fine in a DC film.
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Post by bud47 on Apr 2, 2019 19:05:29 GMT
You seem to miss the point. You say he didn't know. I'm asking how could he not have known? Because he didn't see the box labelled training grenades and so he thought he was a real grenade. Again not particularly complicated. A person also isn't a genius for being able to obtain a flag from a pole, it was a small bit of a problem solving, completely separate from acting on instinct. It did, even very small children would have easily have grasped what they were getting at with that scene. It was made perfectly clear. You would have understood it just fine if it was fine in a DC film. His argument is that he's assuming that he saw the box and what was printed on it. At no point in the film is that made apparent, so the whole argument falls apart.
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Post by Power Ranger on Apr 2, 2019 19:30:52 GMT
You seem to miss the point. You say he didn't know. I'm asking how could he not have known? Because he didn't see the box labelled training grenades and so he thought he was a real grenade. Again not particularly complicated. A person also isn't a genius for being able to obtain a flag from a pole, it was a small bit of a problem solving, completely separate from acting on instinct. It did, even very small children would have easily have grasped what they were getting at with that scene. It was made perfectly clear. You would have understood it just fine if it was fine in a DC film. If Tommy Lee Jones’ character shouted ‘grenade’ and threw it in the middle of a group of soldiers what’s the likelihood that it was live? Pretty small really. So you’re also assuming that Cap was stupid to believe that it was live. Yet in the flagpole scene he appeared to be intelligent. That strengthens the theory that Cap knew it was a dud and wanted to showboat himself in front of Peggy Carter.
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Post by justanaveragejoe on Apr 2, 2019 19:36:59 GMT
Because he didn't see the box labelled training grenades and so he thought he was a real grenade. Again not particularly complicated. A person also isn't a genius for being able to obtain a flag from a pole, it was a small bit of a problem solving, completely separate from acting on instinct. It did, even very small children would have easily have grasped what they were getting at with that scene. It was made perfectly clear. You would have understood it just fine if it was fine in a DC film. If Tommy Lee Jones’ character shouted ‘grenade’ and threw it in the middle of a group of soldiers what’s the likelihood that it was live? Pretty small really. So you’re also assuming that Cap was stupid to believe that it was live. Yet in the flagpole scene he appeared to be intelligent. That strengthens the theory that Cap knew it was a dud and wanted to showboat himself in front of Peggy Carter. Now you're regurgitating what DC-Troll is saying. What are you, his sock?
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Post by Vassaggo on Apr 2, 2019 19:41:36 GMT
Because he didn't see the box labelled training grenades and so he thought he was a real grenade. Again not particularly complicated. A person also isn't a genius for being able to obtain a flag from a pole, it was a small bit of a problem solving, completely separate from acting on instinct. It did, even very small children would have easily have grasped what they were getting at with that scene. It was made perfectly clear. You would have understood it just fine if it was fine in a DC film. If Tommy Lee Jones’ character shouted ‘grenade’ and threw it in the middle of a group of soldiers what’s the likelihood that it was live? Pretty small really. So you’re also assuming that Cap was stupid to believe that it was live. Yet in the flagpole scene he appeared to be intelligent. That strengthens the theory that Cap knew it was a dud and wanted to showboat himself in front of Peggy Carter. It's beaten into soldiers (some times literally) that every ordnance they see is live and every gun is loaded. In the brief half a second of hearing grenade to seeing an unpinned grenade he wouldn't have time to question whose voice, where it came from, or why it was there. It's a instinctual reaction. That's the point. It's not a thinking thing. It's a gut reaction. His reaction was to the concept of a grenade around people was to cover its, Peggy's reaction was to go towards it too warning/protecting Steve, and everyone else's was to run away.
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Post by Power Ranger on Apr 2, 2019 19:43:02 GMT
If Tommy Lee Jones’ character shouted ‘grenade’ and threw it in the middle of a group of soldiers what’s the likelihood that it was live? Pretty small really. So you’re also assuming that Cap was stupid to believe that it was live. Yet in the flagpole scene he appeared to be intelligent. That strengthens the theory that Cap knew it was a dud and wanted to showboat himself in front of Peggy Carter. Now you're regurgitating what DC-Troll is saying. What are you, his sock? I’m not saying that one version is right over another, simply that both versions are plausible. But basing your opinion solely on the ‘director’s intention’ is wrong. It’s best to base it on what is depicted on the screen.
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Post by Power Ranger on Apr 2, 2019 19:45:30 GMT
If Tommy Lee Jones’ character shouted ‘grenade’ and threw it in the middle of a group of soldiers what’s the likelihood that it was live? Pretty small really. So you’re also assuming that Cap was stupid to believe that it was live. Yet in the flagpole scene he appeared to be intelligent. That strengthens the theory that Cap knew it was a dud and wanted to showboat himself in front of Peggy Carter. It's beaten into soldiers (some times literally) that every ordnance they see is live and every gun is loaded. In the brief half a second of hearing grenade to seeing an unpinned grenade he wouldn't have time to question whose voice, where it came from, or why it was there. It's a instinctual reaction. That's the point. It's not a thinking thing. It's a gut reaction. His reaction was to the concept of a grenade around people was to cover its, Peggy's reaction was to go towards it too warning/protecting Steve, by saying his name running at him, and everyone else's was to run away. This is true, but just because soldiers are conditioned to treat every ordnance as live doesn’t negate the possibility that any soldier, in this case Rogers, thought that it wasn’t.
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Post by poutinep on Apr 2, 2019 19:47:42 GMT
It's beaten into soldiers (some times literally) that every ordnance they see is live and every gun is loaded. In the brief half a second of hearing grenade to seeing an unpinned grenade he wouldn't have time to question whose voice, where it came from, or why it was there. It's a instinctual reaction. That's the point. It's not a thinking thing. It's a gut reaction. His reaction was to the concept of a grenade around people was to cover its, Peggy's reaction was to go towards it too warning/protecting Steve, by saying his name running at him, and everyone else's was to run away. This is true, but just because soldiers are conditioned to treat every ordnance as live doesn’t negate the possibility that any soldier, in this case Rogers, thought that it wasn’t. This argument is stupid. Steve thought it was live, and that is canon.
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Post by poutinep on Apr 2, 2019 20:01:11 GMT
If Tommy Lee Jones’ character shouted ‘grenade’ and threw it in the middle of a group of soldiers what’s the likelihood that it was live? Pretty small really. So you’re also assuming that Cap was stupid to believe that it was live. Yet in the flagpole scene he appeared to be intelligent. That strengthens the theory that Cap knew it was a dud and wanted to showboat himself in front of Peggy Carter. Exactly! The Director basically wants the audience to think that the smartest trainee in the past 17 years was suddenly so stupid that he thought the Colonel would toss a real grenade at his own trainees not in the middle of a battlefield but in the middle of an army training camp. That's just bad and inconsistent writing. The flag thing established that he's smart. The grenade thing established that he's even braver than he is smart.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 2, 2019 20:15:45 GMT
If Tommy Lee Jones’ character shouted ‘grenade’ and threw it in the middle of a group of soldiers what’s the likelihood that it was live? Pretty small really. So you’re also assuming that Cap was stupid to believe that it was live. Yet in the flagpole scene he appeared to be intelligent. That strengthens the theory that Cap knew it was a dud and wanted to showboat himself in front of Peggy Carter. Exactly! The Director basically wants the audience to think that the smartest trainee in the past 17 years was suddenly so stupid that he thought the Colonel would toss a real grenade at his own trainees not in the middle of a battlefield but in the middle of an army training camp. That's just bad and inconsistent writing. That depends on how smart you think Rogers is. Not you specifically, just anybody. He is kind of just a kid from Brooklyn. He probably had some formal education in high school but nothing beyond that. Nothing ivy league or even secondary.
Not to mention when a grenade makes an appearance, you don't stop and think about it. You just move. Run, dive, hide, whatever it takes. Think about it, he could have ended his life right there and then diving on that grenade. Does that sound to you like an overly smart man? What if it really was live?
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Post by bud47 on Apr 2, 2019 20:16:08 GMT
If Tommy Lee Jones’ character shouted ‘grenade’ and threw it in the middle of a group of soldiers what’s the likelihood that it was live? Pretty small really. So you’re also assuming that Cap was stupid to believe that it was live. Yet in the flagpole scene he appeared to be intelligent. That strengthens the theory that Cap knew it was a dud and wanted to showboat himself in front of Peggy Carter. Exactly! The Director basically wants the audience to think that the smartest trainee in the past 17 years was suddenly so stupid that he thought the Colonel would toss a real grenade at his own trainees not in the middle of a battlefield but in the middle of an army training camp. That's just bad and inconsistent writing. Smart or dumb, gut reaction and instinct supersedes everything. It doesn't allow you the time to think. He was reacting instinctively. Intelligence has nothing to do with this. This argument is just going to keep going in circles.
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