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Post by Leo of Red Keep on Apr 4, 2019 16:40:40 GMT
And that should have turned him off. The Kinvara scene was there to show that Daenerys' rise was the occasion for an ominous and unwanted power to rise with her. Tyrion should have seen that the new alliances would be a bag of knots installing a new mess in place of an old order which is only detrimental and "oppressive" in the mind of dumb viewers. We never saw the Lannister rule being oppressive or worth removing in any other way than for the personal benefit or misguided convictions of those who tried. He was a broken man and needed/wanted something to believe in. That didn't come across. We saw him go down in S5, contemplating risking his life for the mere fun of it ("if you execute me, at least my last days were interesting") but nothing in S6 was made to show any sequel to that. He was suddenly up and running on the job without afterthoughts or perceptible motivation, nothing to explain what he wanted or why he felt better. It seems he was there because the actor got a job,
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Marendil
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Post by Marendil on Apr 4, 2019 17:50:15 GMT
He was a broken man and needed/wanted something to believe in. That didn't come across. We saw him go down in S5, contemplating risking his life for the mere fun of it ("if you execute me, at least my last days were interesting") but nothing in S6 was made to show any sequel to that. He was suddenly up and running on the job without afterthoughts or perceptible motivation, nothing to explain what he wanted or why he felt better. It seems he was there because the actor got a job, The quote you posted was from the very end of season six, by that time he'd had all those experiences I listed plus Dany showing up in the nick of time with the missing dragon and several Dothraki Hordes, if that wasn't enough to seal the deal, what could be?
During season six he was doing a challenging job that he previously admitted he enjoyed, and along the way finding more that he liked about Dany. He was indeed notably unconcerned about R'Hllor's influence in stark contrast to Varys, but I saw that as him desperate to quell dissent in Mereen and willing to deal with the devil if that's what it took. Perhaps an oversight, perhaps not, no one knows what R'Hellor is up. You probably don't recall, but my very first post on the old IMDB GoT board was regarding these religions and their impact on the story, especially that torch-happy fire demon. Several times hence I tried again and never got a satisfactory answer, other than it seems obvious now the book gurus that claimed he was unimportant and just a Stannis subplot were wrong.
Varys incidentally is still highly skeptical if not outright hostile about it; Melisandre made only two appearances in season seven (Beric and Thoros represented the R'Hllor arc) and both times Varys was all over her like flies on shit, though Melisandre got the last word as she often does. If you're going to claim R'Hllor is a bad influence, a proposition I'm willing to entertain, watch season seven and make an argument that relies on something outside bald assertion. During this extended conversation on two threads I managed to sit down and watch all of season seven between responses, completing my rewatch. Suck it up and accept it's more like comic-book movie quality now but it still has some great scenes and let's see if we can figure out what this Fire God is up to before the show starts and gives us the answer.
As an incentive I'll note that Dany seemed enamored of them the only time I recall her addressing the question, so if you can bust R'Hllor you might expose her as well and Tyrion too! What more could you want?
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Post by Leo of Red Keep on Apr 5, 2019 4:52:53 GMT
That didn't come across. We saw him go down in S5, contemplating risking his life for the mere fun of it ("if you execute me, at least my last days were interesting") but nothing in S6 was made to show any sequel to that. He was suddenly up and running on the job without afterthoughts or perceptible motivation, nothing to explain what he wanted or why he felt better. It seems he was there because the actor got a job, The quote you posted was from the very end of season six, by that time he'd had all those experiences I listed plus Dany showing up in the nick of time with the missing dragon and several Dothraki Hordes, if that wasn't enough to seal the deal, what could be? Tyrion was always sceptical of people, not of the existence of power. He knew the latter all too well but wouldn't trust others to wield it. Daenerys coming back with apparent absolute power should have made him warier, not believing. He had to believe she would keep following his advice after she listened to him twice. That's a stretch and it seems S7 proved him wrong. As to the Lord of Light, he is only interesting in how he makes people act. Kinvara's behaviour announced division in Daenerys' camp, between Tyrion and Varys themselves. The existence of some unexplained power that brings Beric Dondarrion back never justified the wild speculation that sacrificing people would do anything. This is what this story exposes: the behaviour of people facing the unexplained, in all its diversity: those who believe, those who don't, those who try to understand, those who invent wacky theories and those who use them to some benefit. How the Lord of Light really functions is the invention of some fat fantasy fuck and as such not worth debating. It's not the point.
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Marendil
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Post by Marendil on Apr 5, 2019 9:19:31 GMT
The quote you posted was from the very end of season six, by that time he'd had all those experiences I listed plus Dany showing up in the nick of time with the missing dragon and several Dothraki Hordes, if that wasn't enough to seal the deal, what could be? Tyrion was always sceptical of people, not of the existence of power. He knew the latter all too well but wouldn't trust others to wield it. Daenerys coming back with apparent absolute power should have made him warier, not believing. He had to believe she would keep following his advice after she listened to him twice. That's a stretch and it seems S7 proved him wrong. As to the Lord of Light, he is only interesting in how he makes people act. Kinvara's behaviour announced division in Daenerys' camp, between Tyrion and Varys themselves. The existence of some unexplained power that brings Beric Dondarrion back never justified the wild speculation that sacrificing people would do anything. This is what this story exposes: the behaviour of people facing the unexplained, in all its diversity: those who believe, those who don't, those who try to understand, those who invent wacky theories and those who use them to some benefit. How the Lord of Light really functions is the invention of some fat fantasy fuck and as such not worth debating. It's not the point. If nothing else it ought to have convinced him that Dany's side was THE place to be. However what I was getting at was the last he'd seen her she was getting run off riding a wounded dragon all alone, then she shows up just in time at the head of 100k or so Dothraki screamers, that's a damned impressive accomplishment and would tend to suggest to anyone they were dealing with a next level personage.
I think there's got to be more to the Red God than just that, at least plotwise. For example we learned in Season Six that the Children of the Forest (representatives of the North's Old Gods) had a dirty little secret: they created the White Walker menace in the first place. It's not just Beric now, Jon Snow was also revived and is damned uncomfortable with it. BTW, he's not become a Fire worshiper (but Sandor may have--in his own inimitable way) but has an interesting conversation about it with Beric.
Incidentally I just started reading the original GoT book again and in Dany's first chapter I noticed it was revealed Illyrio was a fire-worshiper. R'Hllor was part of this story from the very beginning...
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Post by Leo of Red Keep on Apr 5, 2019 10:21:23 GMT
If nothing else it ought to have convinced him that Dany's side was THE place to be. … Incidentally I just started reading the original GoT book again and in Dany's first chapter I noticed it was revealed Illyrio was a fire-worshiper. R'Hllor was part of this story from the very beginning... Agreed but Tyrion's long tirade was not a mere statement of support, it was an epiphany. The former sceptic was a believer now. As to Illyrio, what can I say? The author is a juvenile fantasy idiot. I have come to think that whatever depth can be found in discussing his references to actual, real life behaviours is fortuitous. He cannot completely invent everything so he grabs pieces of inspiration here and there and we make sense of it which he does not intend. I am no longer giving him any credit.
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Marendil
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Post by Marendil on Apr 5, 2019 10:48:45 GMT
If nothing else it ought to have convinced him that Dany's side was THE place to be. … Incidentally I just started reading the original GoT book again and in Dany's first chapter I noticed it was revealed Illyrio was a fire-worshiper. R'Hllor was part of this story from the very beginning... Agreed but Tyrion's long tirade was not a mere statement of support, it was an epiphany. The former sceptic was a believer now. As to Illyrio, what can I say? The author is a juvenile fantasy idiot. I have come to think that whatever depth can be found in discussing his references to actual, real life behaviours is fortuitous. He cannot completely invent everything so he grabs pieces of inspiration here and there and we make sense of it which he does not intend. I am no longer giving him any credit. Plot, dear Lion, plot. Forget characterization for a minute and concentrate on what R'Hllor's plot significance is. Does he have a dirty little secret too, perhaps? A master plan maybe? You're the one that caused me to realize it was perfectly plausible that Littlefinger may have been complicit--even the impetus--in starting Robert's Rebellion long before the R+L=J equation was proven and the assumption by many was still that Rhaegar kidnapped Lyanna. Whether that will turn out to be the case in the book or the show is irrelevant to the fact all the pieces were in place and it would be a plausible reveal. Do you see what I'm getting at? Let's have some fun on the mind candy level.
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Post by Leo of Red Keep on Apr 6, 2019 4:58:22 GMT
I thought this would fit right in here: |
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Marendil
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Post by Marendil on Apr 7, 2019 8:34:56 GMT
I thought this would fit right in here:
Heh, that reminds me; in the very last episode aired Tyrion says something to the effect that Cersei tried to have him killed twice. I presume one of those times he's referring to was her prosecuting the regicide case against him, but what was the other? The Kingsguard attempt at the Hay Gate? I thought he'd decided in the end that was Joffrey, ultimately determining it was too stupid an attempt for it to be Cersei as she wouldn't have the acting Hand of the King killed in public by a Kingsguard? Am I forgetting an attempt or misremembering their conversation on it? They had a similar conversation regarding the Baratheon bastards and perhaps I mixed it up.
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Post by Leo of Red Keep on Apr 7, 2019 8:43:04 GMT
Cersei put a price on Tyrion's head after he escaped.
Varys told him in S5E02.
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Post by Leo of Red Keep on Apr 7, 2019 10:21:31 GMT
Heh, that reminds me; in the very last episode aired Tyrion says something to the effect that Cersei tried to have him killed twice. I presume one of those times he's referring to was her prosecuting the regicide case against him, … Cersei asked Jaime to kill Tyrion before the trial took place and Jaime told him that when he visited him. He should have done it  #StupidestLannister #LancelDoesn'tEvenCount
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