|
Post by Aj_June on Apr 2, 2019 18:27:54 GMT
We had gems like these: Half Man, Half man...
|
|
Marendil
Sophomore
@marendil
Posts: 750
Likes: 301
|
Post by Marendil on Apr 3, 2019 0:49:25 GMT
Now all we get from Tyrion are really bad cock jokes.
Sigh.
|
|
|
Post by Marv on Apr 3, 2019 9:58:35 GMT
I still love Tyrion but he obviously hasn’t been the same since his trial. But having your father sentence you to death will most likely screw any of us up.
|
|
|
Post by Leo of Red Keep on Apr 3, 2019 10:02:52 GMT
I still love Tyrion but he obviously hasn’t been the same since his trial. But having your father sentence you to death will most likely screw any of us up. Tyrion's a piece of shit who never understood he was making things worse all by himself. He made his father sentence him by going for a trial by combat that left him no other choice. You can trust any idiot in the audience to fail to see this and continue pitying the turd. That said, the character has been slaughtered and turned into a pitiful shadow of its former self in terms of writing.
|
|
|
Post by Leo of Red Keep on Apr 3, 2019 10:35:31 GMT
Now all we get from Tyrion are really bad cock jokes. Sigh. The book character takes a sordid turn, which is well in keeping with GRRM's predilections and might turn up more entertaining but not necessarily deeper. He should have been eaten by lions in the arena but the lizard bitch kept them starving Talk about plot armour…
|
|
|
Post by DSDSquared on Apr 3, 2019 11:36:49 GMT
I still love Tyrion but he obviously hasn’t been the same since his trial. But having your father sentence you to death will most likely screw any of us up. Tyrion's a piece of shit who never understood he was making things worse all by himself. He made his father sentence him by going for a trial by combat that left him no other choice. You can trust any idiot in the audience to fail to see this and continue pitying the turd. That said, the character has been slaughtered and turned into a pitiful shadow of its former self in terms of writing. He 'made' his father? Do you ever actually reread your posts? His father knew he was innocent, yet was willing to sentence him anyway. I suppose you think sending him to the wall for the rest of his days was a good thing for Tyrion. Tyrion was being treated like a monster, again. He was finally tired of it. He put everything he had into making Kings Landing better and he did a pretty darn good job as Hand, considering. All he got for it was taking the black.
|
|
|
Post by Marv on Apr 3, 2019 12:24:14 GMT
I still love Tyrion but he obviously hasn’t been the same since his trial. But having your father sentence you to death will most likely screw any of us up. Tyrion's a piece of shit who never understood he was making things worse all by himself. He made his father sentence him by going for a trial by combat that left him no other choice. You can trust any idiot in the audience to fail to see this and continue pitying the turd. That said, the character has been slaughtered and turned into a pitiful shadow of its former self in terms of writing. If Tyrion is a piece of sh-t it’s due to piss poor upbringing. You can’t raise a child to hate himself and then expect great things by him. So if anyone is to blame it’s Tywin.
|
|
|
Post by Leo of Red Keep on Apr 3, 2019 13:49:31 GMT
Tyrion's a piece of shit who never understood he was making things worse all by himself. He made his father sentence him by going for a trial by combat that left him no other choice. You can trust any idiot in the audience to fail to see this and continue pitying the turd. That said, the character has been slaughtered and turned into a pitiful shadow of its former self in terms of writing. If Tyrion is a piece of sh-t it’s due to piss poor upbringing. You can’t raise a child to hate himself and then expect great things by him. So if anyone is to blame it’s Tywin. Pitiful nonsense. Tywin gave Tyrion all the opportunities and honours he could have dreamed of but the anti-discrimination police wants to see it the other way. Go fuck yourself.
|
|
|
Post by Marv on Apr 3, 2019 14:23:39 GMT
If Tyrion is a piece of sh-t it’s due to piss poor upbringing. You can’t raise a child to hate himself and then expect great things by him. So if anyone is to blame it’s Tywin. Pitiful nonsense. Tywin gave Tyrion all the opportunities and honours he could have dreamed of but the anti-discrimination police wants to see it the other way. Go fuck yourself. Fuck outta here! Tywin wanted Tyrion to be grateful he didn’t have him killed as a child. All Tywin cared about was his family’s perceptive strength and all it did was cause his own family’s downfall. Had he had an ounce of empathy for his children the Lannisters would still be a force to be reckoned with instead of a doormat for whoever wins the North, you delusional twat!
|
|
Marendil
Sophomore
@marendil
Posts: 750
Likes: 301
|
Post by Marendil on Apr 4, 2019 0:25:14 GMT
Pitiful nonsense. Tywin gave Tyrion all the opportunities and honours he could have dreamed of but the anti-discrimination police wants to see it the other way. Go fuck yourself. Fuck outta here! Tywin wanted Tyrion to be grateful he didn’t have him killed as a child. All Tywin cared about was his family’s perceptive strength and all it did was cause his own family’s downfall. Had he had an ounce of empathy for his children the Lannisters would still be a force to be reckoned with instead of a doormat for whoever wins the North, you delusional twat! Frankly I think Tywin had a point regarding Tyrion, as much fun as Tyrion was to watch he was born one of the richest men in the world and up until the war spent much of his life drinking and wenching. In an aristocratic society those at the very top have responsibilities as well as privileges, but look how Tyrion whimpered and whined when his Hill Tribesmen and father expected him to take the field, he was convinced it was a plot to murder him. It wasn't necessary for him to lead any charges as more adept warriors like Jaime or Robb Stark might, but he was expected to be there like Roose Bolton or Mace Tyrell would be--or for that matter how he himself insisted the teen-aged Joffrey take the field at the Battle of Blackwater.
|
|
|
Post by Leo of Red Keep on Apr 4, 2019 1:50:49 GMT
Fuck outta here! Tywin wanted Tyrion to be grateful he didn’t have him killed as a child. All Tywin cared about was his family’s perceptive strength and all it did was cause his own family’s downfall. Had he had an ounce of empathy for his children the Lannisters would still be a force to be reckoned with instead of a doormat for whoever wins the North, you delusional twat! Frankly I think Tywin had a point regarding Tyrion, as much fun as Tyrion was to watch he was born one of the richest men in the world and up until the war spent much of his life drinking and wenching. In an aristocratic society those at the very top have responsibilities as well as privileges, but look how Tyrion whimpered and whined when his Hill Tribesmen and father expected him to take the field, he was convinced it was a plot to murder him. It wasn't necessary for him to lead any charges as more adept warriors like Jaime or Robb Stark might, but he was expected to be there like Roose Bolton or Mace Tyrell would be--or for that matter how he himself insisted the teen-aged Joffrey take the field at the Battle of Blackwater.
Tywin was right all the way about Tyrion. The character is littered with self-pity and targeted at underdog loving leftards.
|
|
Marendil
Sophomore
@marendil
Posts: 750
Likes: 301
|
Post by Marendil on Apr 4, 2019 2:11:08 GMT
Frankly I think Tywin had a point regarding Tyrion, as much fun as Tyrion was to watch he was born one of the richest men in the world and up until the war spent much of his life drinking and wenching. In an aristocratic society those at the very top have responsibilities as well as privileges, but look how Tyrion whimpered and whined when his Hill Tribesmen and father expected him to take the field, he was convinced it was a plot to murder him. It wasn't necessary for him to lead any charges as more adept warriors like Jaime or Robb Stark might, but he was expected to be there like Roose Bolton or Mace Tyrell would be--or for that matter how he himself insisted the teen-aged Joffrey take the field at the Battle of Blackwater.
Tywin was right all the way about Tyrion. The character is littered with self-pity and targeted at underdog loving leftards. Then Tywin was also right when he proposed that Tyrion could be so much more if he would just grow up and rewarded him when he did so. However Tywin had blind spots too, especially regarding his children, as Cersei pointedly noted in a memorable scene.
I don't think any of these characters are wholly right about anything and that's why I like the show.
|
|
|
Post by Leo of Red Keep on Apr 4, 2019 7:11:49 GMT
Tywin was right all the way about Tyrion. The character is littered with self-pity and targeted at underdog loving leftards. Then Tywin was also right when he proposed that Tyrion could be so much more if he would just grow up and rewarded him when he did so. However Tywin had blind spots too, especially regarding his children, as Cersei pointedly noted in a memorable scene.
I don't think any of these characters are wholly right about anything and that's why I like the show.
There is no doubt about Tywin's flaws but they were general. Tyrion was even made to say it himself in S3 when discussing their planned marriages to Sansa and Loras with Cersei: "Father doesn't discriminate". Compare Tyrion with two parallels, Jon and Sam, and see how differently they react. Jon is rejected by Catelyn and his supposed father lets him go waste his life at the Wall without ever telling him the truth about it. Arsehole Ned cared for Jon less than Tywin for Tyrion, it seems. But then, Dumbned also thought there was honour in taking the black, so that may pass as that, yet he acted undisturbed as his bastard "son" decided to get lost some place no one cared. He had no use for him. Now Jon does grumble quite a bit over it, even avoids whores in case he would father another bastard, because being raised by the richest family in the North is "not a good life" but he never falls into resenting his family. He is hurt when Ned dies. Sam's rejection story goes further, and he certainly has no love for his father but he barely ever says anything bad about him. "My father is… my father" he will tell Gilly, that's about the most vindictive we'll see him, and Sam does all he possibly can to find a place of usefulness in the world. Sam, as a fat coward who likes reading, is just as unfit to live up to generic expectations as Tyrion. He doesn't even have money to compensate for it but he develops a loving, forgiving nature when Tyrion slowly grows hateful and turns unto a patricide then joins his family's worst enemy. The difference between Tyrion and Sam is telling: Sam's father is a bully demanding the impossible. Sam doesn't take him seriously, makes his way around him and grows. Tywin, on the other hand, is right about Tyrion. His reproach is of Tyrion's behaviour, not of his nature so it hits and hurts. Tyrion grows resentful and withers. He accuses the world of discrimination so he can dismiss the responsibility for his own weaknesses. Tywin, S3E01: "I gave you real power and authority. You chose to spend your days as you always have, bedding harlots and drinking with thieves." Tyrion: "I am on trial for being a dwarf." So book-Tyrion turns into a villain in plain sight, hoping to rape and kill his sister when he returns to Westeros but show-Tyrion was turned into a bad joke teller with mild regret at seeing his countrymen burn. Pity.
|
|
Marendil
Sophomore
@marendil
Posts: 750
Likes: 301
|
Post by Marendil on Apr 4, 2019 9:07:18 GMT
Then Tywin was also right when he proposed that Tyrion could be so much more if he would just grow up and rewarded him when he did so. However Tywin had blind spots too, especially regarding his children, as Cersei pointedly noted in a memorable scene.
I don't think any of these characters are wholly right about anything and that's why I like the show.
There is no doubt about Tywin's flaws but they were general. Tyrion was even made to say it himself in S3 when discussing their planned marriages to Sansa and Loras with Cersei: "Father doesn't discriminate". Compare Tyrion with two parallels, Jon and Sam, and see how differently they react. Jon is rejected by Catelyn and his supposed father lets him go waste his life at the Wall without ever telling him the truth about it. Arsehole Ned cared for Jon less than Tywin for Tyrion, it seems. But then, Dumbned also thought there was honour in taking the black, so that may pass as that, yet he acted undisturbed as his bastard "son" decided to get lost some place no one cared. He had no use for him. Now Jon does grumble quite a bit over it, even avoids whores in case he would father another bastard, because being raised by the richest family in the North is "not a good life" but he never falls into resenting his family. He is hurt when Ned dies. Sam's rejection story goes further, and he certainly has no love for his father but he barely ever says anything bad about him. "My father is… my father" he will tell Gilly, that's about the most vindictive we'll see him, and Sam does all he possibly can to find a place of usefulness in the world. Sam, as a fat coward who likes reading, is just as unfit to live up to generic expectations as Tyrion. He doesn't even have money to compensate for it but he develops a loving, forgiving nature when Tyrion slowly grows hateful and turns unto a patricide then joins his family's worst enemy. The difference between Tyrion and Sam is telling: Sam's father is a bully demanding the impossible. Sam doesn't take him seriously, makes his way around him and grows. Tywin, on the other hand, is right about Tyrion. His reproach is of Tyrion's behaviour, not of his nature so it hits and hurts. Tyrion grows resentful and withers. He accuses the world of discrimination so he can dismiss the responsibility for his own weaknesses. Tywin, S3E01: "I gave you real power and authority. You chose to spend your days as you always have, bedding harlots and drinking with thieves." Tyrion: "I am on trial for being a dwarf." So book-Tyrion turns into a villain in plain sight, hoping to rape and kill his sister when he returns to Westeros but show-Tyrion was turned into a bad joke teller with mild regret at seeing his countrymen burn. Pity. I think Ned wanted Jon at the Wall not only because 'Stark men have manned the Wall for centuries' but also because it was the safest place in Westeros for the heir of Rhaegar Targaryen--and best for the Realm as well because he'd swear away his birthright which could start another civil war. I suspect that's why he wanted to wait until next time to tell Jon about his mother--after Jon had taken the oath. There he'd also be with two of his closest relatives, Aemon and Benjen. Ned did his best to do right by both his nephew and the Realm in my opinion.
Tyrion's daddy issues go farther than either Sam's or Jon's, (incidentally I liked Randyl Tarly as a character and think him no caricature but a gruff old man whose bark was worse than his bite and his threat to Sam a ploy) and I agree it's not one of his more redeeming qualities, but there was something beneath that antagonism as evidenced by Tywin taking a 'victory lap' with Shae not unlike the Stag/Fish/Wolf Pelt & Ice rituals he indulged in privately after the defeat of other enemies...
I do cringe every time Tyrion claims Tywin 'knew' he was innocent, there's no way he could and Tyrion had means, motive and opportunity galore, however I don't think Tywin much cared either, he was getting tempted to wring Joffrey's neck himself--for much the same reasons he washed his hands of Tyrion.
I don't remember that from the book and I suspect I would if I thought Tyrion was entirely serious about it and not just raging in despair or something.
|
|
|
Post by Leo of Red Keep on Apr 4, 2019 11:19:29 GMT
I think Ned wanted Jon at the Wall not only because 'Stark men have manned the Wall for centuries' but also because it was the safest place in Westeros for the heir of Rhaegar Targaryen--and best for the Realm as well because he'd swear away his birthright which could start another civil war. I suspect that's why he wanted to wait until next time to tell Jon about his mother--after Jon had taken the oath. There he'd also be with two of his closest relatives, Aemon and Benjen. Ned did his best to do right by both his nephew and the Realm in my opinion. Tyrion's daddy issues go farther than either Sam's or Jon's, (incidentally I liked Randyl Tarly as a character and think him no caricature but a gruff old man whose bark was worse than his bite and his threat to Sam a ploy) and I agree it's not one of his more redeeming qualities, but there was something beneath that antagonism as evidenced by Tywin taking a 'victory lap' with Shae not unlike the Stag/Fish/Wolf Pelt & Ice rituals he indulged in privately after the defeat of other enemies... I do cringe every time Tyrion claims Tywin 'knew' he was innocent, there's no way he could and Tyrion had means, motive and opportunity galore, however I don't think Tywin much cared either, he was getting tempted to wring Joffrey's neck himself--for much the same reasons he washed his hands of Tyrion.
The best for the realm would have been for Ned to continue lying to Jon and invent something about "Wylla". He could have trusted Catelyn to keep the truth to herself too but that shit never cared for people, only for principles. I never thought of Tywin taking "a victory lap" with Shae, there was nothing to indicate it. She was just a whore to him but Tyrion let himself be triggered again. Viewers are meant to cringe at his misguided assumptions, the same way they are to do at Jorah's blind optimism that Daenerys will be the perfect ruler. Tyrion himself is the one whose scepticism makes it visible when they discuss it in S5E06, which is a pleasant duality. The clever man who sees right through other's blindness is blind to himself.
|
|
Marendil
Sophomore
@marendil
Posts: 750
Likes: 301
|
Post by Marendil on Apr 4, 2019 13:53:48 GMT
I think Ned wanted Jon at the Wall not only because 'Stark men have manned the Wall for centuries' but also because it was the safest place in Westeros for the heir of Rhaegar Targaryen--and best for the Realm as well because he'd swear away his birthright which could start another civil war. I suspect that's why he wanted to wait until next time to tell Jon about his mother--after Jon had taken the oath. There he'd also be with two of his closest relatives, Aemon and Benjen. Ned did his best to do right by both his nephew and the Realm in my opinion. Tyrion's daddy issues go farther than either Sam's or Jon's, (incidentally I liked Randyl Tarly as a character and think him no caricature but a gruff old man whose bark was worse than his bite and his threat to Sam a ploy) and I agree it's not one of his more redeeming qualities, but there was something beneath that antagonism as evidenced by Tywin taking a 'victory lap' with Shae not unlike the Stag/Fish/Wolf Pelt & Ice rituals he indulged in privately after the defeat of other enemies... I do cringe every time Tyrion claims Tywin 'knew' he was innocent, there's no way he could and Tyrion had means, motive and opportunity galore, however I don't think Tywin much cared either, he was getting tempted to wring Joffrey's neck himself--for much the same reasons he washed his hands of Tyrion.
The best for the realm would have been for Ned to continue lying to Jon and invent something about "Wylla". He could have trusted Catelyn to keep the truth to herself too but that shit never cared for people, only for principles. I never thought of Tywin taking "a victory lap" with Shae, there was nothing to indicate it. She was just a whore to him but Tyrion let himself be triggered again. Viewers are meant to cringe at his misguided assumptions, the same way they are to do at Jorah's blind optimism that Daenerys will be the perfect ruler. Tyrion himself is the one whose scepticism makes it visible when they discuss it in S5E06, which is a pleasant duality. The clever man who sees right through other's blindness is blind to himself. It seems to me Ned didn't want to expand his lie or increase the circle of people that knew because he thought that placed both Jon and the Realm in peril, a reasonable assumption. Two people can definitely keep a secret--provided one is a corpse. Otherwise there's a chance someone gets into their cups or talks in their sleep or something--not a risk worth taking considering the stakes. The more elaborate a lie the tougher to keep it straight.
Tywin always did his private touchdown dances after every victory and considering how the whole thing worked out with Gregor presumably silenced forever--the last one alive who could have betrayed his complicity in the deaths of Rhaegar's family--and Tyrion condemned by the Gods validating his evaluation of of him, he threw a little stag party and had himself some pelt, gutting some fishy parts.
Jorah saw what he considered a miracle, that sort of thing has been known to change minds and breed fanaticism. Tyrion hit rock bottom and needed something to believe in, also fertile grounds for skepticism to wane.
|
|
|
Post by Leo of Red Keep on Apr 4, 2019 14:42:43 GMT
Jorah saw what he considered a miracle, that sort of thing has been known to change minds and breed fanaticism. Tyrion hit rock bottom and needed something to believe in, also fertile grounds for skepticism to wane. Jorah's irrationality was perfectly exposed. "Have you ever heard baby dragons singing?" is hardly a receivable argument to someone's ability to rule. Tyrion's conversion after Daenerys just listened to him twice was less convincing but this was Season 6 and barely any of it made sense. The writing just jumped to wherever it wanted characters to be: "For what it's worth, I've been a cynic for as long as I can remember. Everyone's always asking me to believe in things: family, gods, kings, myself. It was often tempting until I saw where belief got people. So I said no, thank you to belief. And yet here I am. I believe in you." Long talk, no real justification for such a change. One episode, one battle before, Tyrion was trying to hold her back from behaving as a ruthless tyrant dragoning everything in her path.
|
|
Marendil
Sophomore
@marendil
Posts: 750
Likes: 301
|
Post by Marendil on Apr 4, 2019 15:08:32 GMT
Jorah saw what he considered a miracle, that sort of thing has been known to change minds and breed fanaticism. Tyrion hit rock bottom and needed something to believe in, also fertile grounds for skepticism to wane. Jorah's irrationality was perfectly exposed. "Have you ever heard baby dragons singing?" is hardly a receivable argument to someone's ability to rule. Tyrion's conversion after Daenerys just listened to him twice was less convincing but this was Season 6 and barely any of it made sense. The writing just jumped to wherever it wanted characters to be: "For what it's worth, I've been a cynic for as long as I can remember. Everyone's always asking me to believe in things: family, gods, kings, myself. It was often tempting until I saw where belief got people. So I said no, thank you to belief. And yet here I am. I believe in you." Long talk, no real justification for such a change. One episode, one battle before, Tyrion was trying to hold her back from behaving as a ruthless tyrant dragoning everything in her path. But that explains Jorah perfectly, he's not a rational and never was, he's the guy who's motivated by and will do anything for love, even if it brings him ruin and risk of losing everything, even if it is not reciprocated. That's what makes that dour old bear an interesting character.
There was more to it than that with Tyrion, he had the opinion of Varys, a man he greatly respected. He heard the Red Witch on the bridge in Volantis, he got Kinvara'd with Varys. He saw some of the others she'd recruited and became acquainted with their stories and saw her little empire from the ground up.
|
|
|
Post by Leo of Red Keep on Apr 4, 2019 15:18:36 GMT
There was more to it than that with Tyrion, he had the opinion of Varys, a man he greatly respected. He heard the Red Witch on the bridge in Volantis, he got Kinvara'd with Varys. He saw some of the others she'd recruited and became acquainted with their stories and saw her little empire from the ground up. And that should have turned him off. The Kinvara scene was there to show that Daenerys' rise was the occasion for an ominous and unwanted power to rise with her. Tyrion should have seen that the new alliances would be a bag of knots installing a new mess in place of an old order which is only detrimental and "oppressive" in the mind of dumb viewers. We never saw the Lannister rule being oppressive or worth removing in any other way than for the personal benefit or misguided convictions of those who tried.
|
|
Marendil
Sophomore
@marendil
Posts: 750
Likes: 301
|
Post by Marendil on Apr 4, 2019 15:57:02 GMT
There was more to it than that with Tyrion, he had the opinion of Varys, a man he greatly respected. He heard the Red Witch on the bridge in Volantis, he got Kinvara'd with Varys. He saw some of the others she'd recruited and became acquainted with their stories and saw her little empire from the ground up. And that should have turned him off. The Kinvara scene was there to show that Daenerys' rise was the occasion for an ominous and unwanted power to rise with her. Tyrion should have seen that the new alliances would be a bag of knots installing a new mess in place of an old order which is only detrimental and "oppressive" in the mind of dumb viewers. We never saw the Lannister rule being oppressive or worth removing in any other way than for the personal benefit or misguided convictions of those who tried. He was a broken man and needed/wanted something to believe in.
I wanna know what this R'Hllor clown is up to more than anything else, he seems better than an icy death, but his tolls seem to start with human sacrifices and...
You can ask Melisandre...
|
|