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Post by Aj_June on Apr 29, 2019 18:51:02 GMT
He did really love her a lot. If you read viewer reactions from all over the internet then you will find many people forgave Melisandre or at least many people started liking her again. Many did forgive her long ago when she had resurrected Jon Snow. Some took a liking for her after the badassery she showed in the latest episode. But Ser Davos never forgave her. Even when he knew she was helping them win the battle of the long night he still wanted to see that justice is done to her. Once the great night was over he still wanted to execute her. So it shows that Shireen meant a lot to him. As much as his own daughter.
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Marendil
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Post by Marendil on Apr 29, 2019 21:20:40 GMT
He did really love her a lot. If you read viewer reactions from all over the internet then you will find many people forgave Melisandre or at many people started liking her again. Many did forgive her long ago when she had resurrected Jon Snow. Some took a liking for her after the badassery she showed in the latest episode. But Ser Davos never forgave her. Even when he knew she was helping them win the battle of the long night he still wanted to see that justice is done to her. Once the great night was over he still wanted to execute her. So it shows that Shireen meant a lot to him. As much as his own daughter.
I wonder...he looked more conflicted than anything. He had his chance to put her down when she came through the gate and bought in totally to her claiming her death was nigh (alternate course 'I won't let you escape justice through suicide or some sacrifice...Archers knock--LOOSE!') and while he followed her out and put his hand on his sword he didn't draw it and stopped before she started peeling for her last nude scene.
It was kind of silly to blame her entirely anyway, almost no one else returned from that last doomed march, why would Shireen be different? Would he have preferred Shireen fall into Ramsey Bolton's hands?
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Post by CynicalDreamer2 on Apr 29, 2019 22:35:34 GMT
He did really love her a lot. If you read viewer reactions from all over the internet then you will find many people forgave Melisandre or at many people started liking her again. Many did forgive her long ago when she had resurrected Jon Snow. Some took a liking for her after the badassery she showed in the latest episode. But Ser Davos never forgave her. Even when he knew she was helping them win the battle of the long night he still wanted to see that justice is done to her. Once the great night was over he still wanted to execute her. So it shows that Shireen meant a lot to him. As much as his own daughter.
I wonder...he looked more conflicted than anything. He had his chance to put her down when she came through the gate and bought in totally to her claiming her death was nigh (alternate course 'I won't let you escape justice through suicide or some sacrifice...Archers knock--LOOSE!') and while he followed her out and put his hand on his sword he didn't draw it and stopped before she started peeling for her last nude scene.
It was kind of silly to blame her entirely anyway, almost no one else returned from that last doomed march, why would Shireen be different? Would he have preferred Shireen fall into Ramsey Bolton's hands?
Are you serious? She burned her alive and you know there are more humane ways to save a person from torture.
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Post by moviebuffbrad on Apr 30, 2019 0:03:10 GMT
I wonder...he looked more conflicted than anything. He had his chance to put her down when she came through the gate and bought in totally to her claiming her death was nigh (alternate course 'I won't let you escape justice through suicide or some sacrifice...Archers knock--LOOSE!') and while he followed her out and put his hand on his sword he didn't draw it and stopped before she started peeling for her last nude scene.
It was kind of silly to blame her entirely anyway, almost no one else returned from that last doomed march, why would Shireen be different? Would he have preferred Shireen fall into Ramsey Bolton's hands?
Are you serious? She burned her alive and you know there are more humane ways to save a person from torture. Yep. I'm okay with Mel's death but if Davos decapitated her after the battle was over, that would have been fine too.
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Post by CynicalDreamer2 on Apr 30, 2019 1:01:06 GMT
Are you serious? She burned her alive and you know there are more humane ways to save a person from torture. Yep. I'm okay with Mel's death but if Davos decapitated her after the battle was over, that would have been fine too. Absolutely. In fact I would have liked to see it. Yeah she helped when they needed her but she did some horrible ish along the way.
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Marendil
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Post by Marendil on Apr 30, 2019 2:52:31 GMT
I wonder...he looked more conflicted than anything. He had his chance to put her down when she came through the gate and bought in totally to her claiming her death was nigh (alternate course 'I won't let you escape justice through suicide or some sacrifice...Archers knock--LOOSE!') and while he followed her out and put his hand on his sword he didn't draw it and stopped before she started peeling for her last nude scene.
It was kind of silly to blame her entirely anyway, almost no one else returned from that last doomed march, why would Shireen be different? Would he have preferred Shireen fall into Ramsey Bolton's hands?
Are you serious? She burned her alive and you know there are more humane ways to save a person from torture. They were all doomed anyways. That was a desperate attempt to save all of them, and it did save ~2000 of them--the ones who deserted.
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Post by CynicalDreamer2 on Apr 30, 2019 2:56:25 GMT
Are you serious? She burned her alive and you know there are more humane ways to save a person from torture. They were all doomed anyways. That was a desperate attempt to save all of them, and it did save ~2000 of them--the ones who deserted. Justify it all you want but that’s not why she did it.
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Post by Marendil on Apr 30, 2019 3:01:29 GMT
They were all doomed anyways. That was a desperate attempt to save all of them, and it did save ~2000 of them--the ones who deserted. Justify it all you want but that’s not why she did it. Why do you think it was? For whatever reason Melisandre thought the Lord of Light demanded it and Shireen would go to a happy place and play with fawns and butterflies all day.
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Post by Leo of Red Keep on Apr 30, 2019 3:34:03 GMT
If you read viewer reactions from all over the internet then you will find many people forgave Melisandre or at many people started liking her again.
I disliked her from the start but most shits out there only did when she got Stannis to burn "a little girl". They were perfectly fine with burning grown men "for the common good" on unverified assumptions that it would do anything at all. Flush them all. Davos had the merit of disliking her before that too.
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Post by CoolJGS☺ on Apr 30, 2019 3:41:00 GMT
He did really love her a lot. If you read viewer reactions from all over the internet then you will find many people forgave Melisandre or at many people started liking her again. Many did forgive her long ago when she had resurrected Jon Snow. Some took a liking for her after the badassery she showed in the latest episode. But Ser Davos never forgave her. Even when he knew she was helping them win the battle of the long night he still wanted to see that justice is done to her. Once the great night was over he still wanted to execute her. So it shows that Shireen meant a lot to him. As much as his own daughter.
It was kind of silly to blame her entirely anyway, almost no one else returned from that last doomed march, why would Shireen be different? Would he have preferred Shireen fall into Ramsey Bolton's hands?
I thought it made perfect sense to blame her. The correct course of action for that moron Stannis was to turn around and regroup.
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Post by Marendil on Apr 30, 2019 3:52:25 GMT
It was kind of silly to blame her entirely anyway, almost no one else returned from that last doomed march, why would Shireen be different? Would he have preferred Shireen fall into Ramsey Bolton's hands?
I thought it made perfect sense to blame her. The correct course of action for that moron Stannis was to turn around and regroup. By the time Shireen burnt that wasn't an option.
Davos doesn't know the details, all he knows is what Melisandre told him and that she was the only one who ever made it back to Castle Black.
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Post by CoolJGS☺ on Apr 30, 2019 4:00:39 GMT
I thought it made perfect sense to blame her. The correct course of action for that moron Stannis was to turn around and regroup. By the time Shireen burnt that wasn't an option.
Davos doesn't know the details, all he knows is what Melisandre told him and that she was the only one who ever made it back to Castle Black.
I'm saying it should have happened before she was burnt. He knows that most of the stupid things Stannis does is because he listens to her.
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Post by CynicalDreamer2 on Apr 30, 2019 4:02:34 GMT
By the time Shireen burnt that wasn't an option.
Davos doesn't know the details, all he knows is what Melisandre told him and that she was the only one who ever made it back to Castle Black.
I'm saying it should have happened before she was burnt. He knows that most of the stupid things Stannis does is because he listens to her. I can’t tell if he’s being serious defending her being burned alive.
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Post by Marendil on Apr 30, 2019 4:39:49 GMT
I'm saying it should have happened before she was burnt. He knows that most of the stupid things Stannis does is because he listens to her. I can’t tell if he’s being serious defending her being burned alive. What makes you think I'm 'defending' that rather than trying to understand its implications?
No one actually died here, Kerry Ingram is alive and well and is a regular on a TV series, a role she might not have gotten had she not been so memorable as the absolutely adorable Shireen Baratheon.
Who actually killed Shireen Baratheon? The writers did. What effect did her death have on the story? Immediately it allowed Melisandre to escape back to Castle Black where she was able to resurrect Jon Snow who would then banish her when he learned of Shireen's death so Melisandre would have to leave the North and go to Dragonstone so she could 'bring ice and fire together.' Later she could then show up and aid the defenders of Winterfell and most importantly direct Arya towards the Night King which saved everyone in the North if not all of Westeros and the world. If you doubt what that's what they intended remember Melisandre's words about Beric and Bran's words to Jaime and Theon about the things they were sorry about.
I'm not saying it's moral or that I like it but that's the story they're telling; the sacrifice of Shireen ultimately was instrumental in saving the world.
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Post by Leo of Red Keep on Apr 30, 2019 5:10:06 GMT
I'm saying it should have happened before she was burnt. He knows that most of the stupid things Stannis does is because he listens to her. I can’t tell if he’s being serious defending her being burned alive. That piece of shit will also defend Daenerys at every turn. Another relativist turd, I suppose. The only defence I'll accept for Melisandre is that she has seen at least some not fully understood validation of her nonsense while those who believe her do so without any. Stannis is the one who used power to make her sacrifices possible. He is the first responsible for them. He saw some unrelated trick and jumped to the conclusion that he should believe the rest.
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Post by Marendil on Apr 30, 2019 6:36:39 GMT
By the time Shireen burnt that wasn't an option.
Davos doesn't know the details, all he knows is what Melisandre told him and that she was the only one who ever made it back to Castle Black.
I'm saying it should have happened before she was burnt. He knows that most of the stupid things Stannis does is because he listens to her. How could that have mattered? So they'd be a little farther up the road when they got snowed in and were faced with the same dilemma?
Storywise the one responsible for all this was R'Hllor, and what I'd really like to do with Melisandre is string her up by her toenails until she gave us some answers. We know she doesn't have the whole story but she knows more than we do and it would useful to determining just how malevolent a force this R'Hllor is. Maybe she could help us with The Old Gods too, representatives of which (The Children of the Forest) were responsible for creating the Night King menace in the first place. What they have in common is they they have an adverse impact on free will, which is why I wonder if in the end the resolution will be their exposure as a detriment to mankind, if the Army of the Dead and the immolations weren't a big enough hint. That would analogize another popular fantasy author, Michael Moorcock, who had his hero kill the Gods of Chaos (who seemed 'evil') and the Gods of Law (who came across as pretty 'good') at the end of one of his sagas.
If it's truly possible to see the future, our free will means nothing and morality dicksquat; our choices are already set in stone and we're just cogs in a machine unable to deter from our programming. I much prefer David Hume's take on all this as he acknowledged that although often our choices are limited by factors like or akin to our capabilities, upbringing and genetics we still do have them regardless of Gods and Kings.
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Post by CoolJGS☺ on Apr 30, 2019 11:29:47 GMT
I'm saying it should have happened before she was burnt. He knows that most of the stupid things Stannis does is because he listens to her. How could that have mattered? So they'd be a little farther up the road when they got snowed in and were faced with the same dilemma?
Storywise the one responsible for all this was R'Hllor, and what I'd really like to do with Melisandre is string her up by her toenails until she gave us some answers. We know she doesn't have the whole story but she knows more than we do and it would useful to determining just how malevolent a force this R'Hllor is. Maybe she could help us with The Old Gods too, representatives of which (The Children of the Forest) were responsible for creating the Night King menace in the first place. What they have in common is they they have an adverse impact on free will, which is why I wonder if in the end the resolution will be their exposure as a detriment to mankind, if the Army of the Dead and the immolations weren't a big enough hint. That would analogize another popular fantasy author, Michael Moorcock, who had his hero kill the Gods of Chaos (who seemed 'evil') and the Gods of Law (who came across as pretty 'good') at the end of one of his sagas.
If it's truly possible to see the future, our free will means nothing and morality dicksquat; our choices are already set in stone and we're just cogs in a machine unable to deter from our programming. I much prefer David Hume's take on all this as he acknowledged that although often our choices are limited by factors like or akin to our capabilities, upbringing and genetics we still do have them regardless of Gods and Kings.
I'm just talking about a dad killing his kid because a witch told him to.
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Post by Marendil on Apr 30, 2019 11:32:28 GMT
How could that have mattered? So they'd be a little farther up the road when they got snowed in and were faced with the same dilemma?
Storywise the one responsible for all this was R'Hllor, and what I'd really like to do with Melisandre is string her up by her toenails until she gave us some answers. We know she doesn't have the whole story but she knows more than we do and it would useful to determining just how malevolent a force this R'Hllor is. Maybe she could help us with The Old Gods too, representatives of which (The Children of the Forest) were responsible for creating the Night King menace in the first place. What they have in common is they they have an adverse impact on free will, which is why I wonder if in the end the resolution will be their exposure as a detriment to mankind, if the Army of the Dead and the immolations weren't a big enough hint. That would analogize another popular fantasy author, Michael Moorcock, who had his hero kill the Gods of Chaos (who seemed 'evil') and the Gods of Law (who came across as pretty 'good') at the end of one of his sagas.
If it's truly possible to see the future, our free will means nothing and morality dicksquat; our choices are already set in stone and we're just cogs in a machine unable to deter from our programming. I much prefer David Hume's take on all this as he acknowledged that although often our choices are limited by factors like or akin to our capabilities, upbringing and genetics we still do have them regardless of Gods and Kings.
I'm just talking about a dad killing his kid because a witch told him to. Which is pretty fucking awful and if it makes you happier there won't be any Brienne around to give him a coup de grâce when his time comes in the books, I'd lay odds GRRM dedicates a whole chapter to him getting flayed alive by Ramsey.
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Post by Leo of Red Keep on Apr 30, 2019 11:36:58 GMT
How could that have mattered? So they'd be a little farther up the road when they got snowed in and were faced with the same dilemma?
Storywise the one responsible for all this was R'Hllor, I'm just talking about a dad killing his kid because a witch told him to. Yes, that's the whole and final point about it, but to our turd in charge, the real responsible is whatever gave the idea.
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