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Post by xystophoros on May 10, 2019 9:11:53 GMT
What makes you think Euron et al wouldn’t be waiting to ambush Daenerys if she arrived two or three weeks later? It would’ve been the same thing. The conversation between Sansa and Dany was stupid, as was the fact that no one had the balls to tell Daenerys that marching a tattered and wounded army for a month is a nice way to lose the rest of your forces. She no longer has Jorah around to temper her impulses and give her common sense advice on military matters. I saw that scene differently. I think you may have a point with your last sentence, but not in this particular instance.
Why would they be especially tired? They fought for part of a night. Did they look 'exhausted' feasting in Winterfell's hall? The only ones who really had anywhere to desert to was the Northern Army, best way to keep that army together is get it out of the North before they decide to go home. The Wildlings were the last to get there and thus got the least rest before the battle and left with everyone else. As you note, it's not like they're going straight into battle, there's a month on the road ahead they can slow the march if need be, or camp somewhere like Cerwyn or Moat Cailin.
Sansa hadn't even spoken to her officers, she just pulled that out of her ass. Note Jon's expression when he turned to look at her and his tone of voice when he spoke and the fact that directly previous Daenerys had backed down from taking King's Landing in favor of the siege and blockade strategy suggested by Jon and Tyrion. Jorah was not needed to temper her impulses at that juncture and both Jon and Tyrion were not shy to speak up. Sansa was just being difficult, perhaps to delay the departure of the Northern Army, and Daenerys realized it when Sansa revealed she'd not spoken to the officers. However due to other developments in this episode I do think you might be on to something regarding the loss of Jorah. Greyworm now is the only one left that was with her for any length of time in Essos, her trust in pretty much everyone else can be undermined if she finds out Tyrion found out about Jon's heritage through Jon telling Sansa, the only thing she ever begged for. If Greyworm is overly distraught over the death of Missandei and is feeling vengeful towards Cersei and anyone associated with her, Jorah's councel might be sorely missed...
Fought for part of a night? They fought for several hours, from the middle of night until dawn. Have you never participated in combat sports or anything truly physical like that? Fighting is by far the most draining physical exercise you can do. The energy required just to move another person’s body — while they are actively fighting against you — exceeds that of sports like basketball or football by several orders of magnitude. Most people these days wouldn’t last 5 minutes in a ring doing full-contact MMA. Forget about hours in full armor, wielding a heavy sword, fighting a numerically superior army that never runs out of fresh troops to send at you. It takes weeks to truly recover from that.The show had them feasting. Fine. It’s a show. And it’s pssible that, yes, after sleeping for 12 hours each, they might feast because their ravenous bodies need to consume thousands of calories and their minds need the mental distraction. Sansa didn’t pull that out of her ass. If you’ve never participated in combat sports or anything like that, Steven Pressfield’s Gates of Fire, about the legendary battle of Thermopylae, is well worth reading. It’s on the US Marine Corps commandant’s recommended reading list. Not only is the book awesome and the story legendary, but it also showed one of the primary problems faced by the Spartans and the other Greeks at Thermopylae was that they were exhausted almost to the point of death just from killing. Xerxes had so many men, and they were so ill-equipped to deal with close-quarters phalanx combat, that he kept sending wave after wave and the Greeks couldn’t keep up with the sheer amount of killing they had to do.
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Marendil
Sophomore
@marendil
Posts: 750
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Post by Marendil on May 10, 2019 11:07:53 GMT
I saw that scene differently. I think you may have a point with your last sentence, but not in this particular instance.
Why would they be especially tired? They fought for part of a night. Did they look 'exhausted' feasting in Winterfell's hall? The only ones who really had anywhere to desert to was the Northern Army, best way to keep that army together is get it out of the North before they decide to go home. The Wildlings were the last to get there and thus got the least rest before the battle and left with everyone else. As you note, it's not like they're going straight into battle, there's a month on the road ahead they can slow the march if need be, or camp somewhere like Cerwyn or Moat Cailin.
Sansa hadn't even spoken to her officers, she just pulled that out of her ass. Note Jon's expression when he turned to look at her and his tone of voice when he spoke and the fact that directly previous Daenerys had backed down from taking King's Landing in favor of the siege and blockade strategy suggested by Jon and Tyrion. Jorah was not needed to temper her impulses at that juncture and both Jon and Tyrion were not shy to speak up. Sansa was just being difficult, perhaps to delay the departure of the Northern Army, and Daenerys realized it when Sansa revealed she'd not spoken to the officers. However due to other developments in this episode I do think you might be on to something regarding the loss of Jorah. Greyworm now is the only one left that was with her for any length of time in Essos, her trust in pretty much everyone else can be undermined if she finds out Tyrion found out about Jon's heritage through Jon telling Sansa, the only thing she ever begged for. If Greyworm is overly distraught over the death of Missandei and is feeling vengeful towards Cersei and anyone associated with her, Jorah's councel might be sorely missed...
Fought for part of a night? They fought for several hours, from the middle of night until dawn. Have you never participated in combat sports or anything truly physical like that? Fighting is by far the most draining physical exercise you can do. The energy required just to move another person’s body — while they are actively fighting against you — exceeds that of sports like basketball or football by several orders of magnitude. Most people these days wouldn’t last 5 minutes in a ring doing full-contact MMA. Forget about hours in full armor, wielding a heavy sword, fighting a numerically superior army that never runs out of fresh troops to send at you. It takes weeks to truly recover from that.The show had them feasting. Fine. It’s a show. And it’s pssible that, yes, after sleeping for 12 hours each, they might feast because their ravenous bodies need to consume thousands of calories and their minds need the mental distraction. Sansa didn’t pull that out of her ass. If you’ve never participated in combat sports or anything like that, Steven Pressfield’s Gates of Fire, about the legendary battle of Thermopylae, is well worth reading. It’s on the US Marine Corps commandant’s recommended reading list. Not only is the book awesome and the story legendary, but it also showed one of the primary problems faced by the Spartans and the other Greeks at Thermopylae was that they were exhausted almost to the point of death just from killing. Xerxes had so many men, and they were so ill-equipped to deal with close-quarters phalanx combat, that he kept sending wave after wave and the Greeks couldn’t keep up with the sheer amount of killing they had to do. Part of a night equals several hours, I agree.
And yet armies advanced and retreated after fighting for days sometimes, many without the luxury of knowing they wouldn't be fighting for another month. Different muscles power boots and broadswords. Leonidas and his contingent famously stayed at Thermopylae, in part so the rest of the Greeks could march after fighting for days--without the day rest and feast.
It sounds like you've not run into the MMA participants who made it through 'Hell week' in SEAL training, they wish they got weeks to recover from that or it only lasted several hours, what they get is more arduous BUD/s training instead. Of course most don't make it through that, but I've met some who have and known some who tried and have had to meet different standards myself so it's not like you can bullshit me on this. You are welcome to believe whatever you wish on this subject, but along with everyone else involved in that discussion, I don't consider Sansa Stark the final word.
In that world they had a different attitude, one prevalent in our own until some time after the US Civil War:
"...flogging stragglers has a marked effect on mobility."
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Post by Marv on May 10, 2019 13:53:31 GMT
I’m not sure any amount of rest could account for the combination of a lack of scouting ahead when sea bound during a war with a practical navy and the impeccable accuracy of the scorpions attacked to seafaring vessels.
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Post by Leo of Red Keep on May 10, 2019 13:59:08 GMT
a lack of scouting ahead when sea bound during a war with a practical navy … What is Bran doing all day? Watching porn? Just wondering.
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Post by xystophoros on May 11, 2019 2:06:37 GMT
Part of a night equals several hours, I agree. [/div] And yet armies advanced and retreated after fighting for days sometimes, many without the luxury of knowing they wouldn't be fighting for another month. Different muscles power boots and broadswords. Leonidas and his contingent famously stayed at Thermopylae, in part so the rest of the Greeks could march after fighting for days--without the day rest and feast.
It sounds like you've not run into the MMA participants who made it through 'Hell week' in SEAL training, they wish they got weeks to recover from that or it only lasted several hours, what they get is more arduous BUD/s training instead. Of course most don't make it through that, but I've met some who have and known some who tried and have had to meet different standards myself so it's not like you can bullshit me on this. You are welcome to believe whatever you wish on this subject, but along with everyone else involved in that discussion, I don't consider Sansa Stark the final word.
In that world they had a different attitude, one prevalent in our own until some time after the US Civil War: "...flogging stragglers has a marked effect on mobility."
[/quote] You’re talking completely out of your ass. The SEALS are a small community and you don’t know any of them, let alone train MMA with them. And the part about “having to meet different standards myself” is nebulous nonsense. Standards for what? Eating pizza? Armies require rest. End of. Sending wounded and exhausted men on a month-long march after a single night’s rest is a stupid move.
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Marendil
Sophomore
@marendil
Posts: 750
Likes: 301
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Post by Marendil on May 11, 2019 3:47:54 GMT
You’re talking completely out of your ass. The SEALS are a small community and you don’t know any of them, let alone train MMA with them. And the part about “having to meet different standards myself” is nebulous nonsense. Standards for what? Eating pizza? Armies require rest. End of. Sending wounded and exhausted men on a month-long march after a single night’s rest is a stupid move. Of course armies require rest, the question here is who is best qualified to determine how much and where it should occur, Sansa Stark or Jon Snow and Grey Worm--the men that will be marching them. Another concern might be getting their army away from tens of thousands of decaying corpses to prevent disease. Odds are we will find out in a couple days just who is correct on this. I will allow it's possible that you're correct and that army shows up unready to fight and is routed, I just saw other cues that suggested they intended to demonstrate something else with that scene and made an argument incorporating them that you ignored in favor of the unimpressive MMA argument and now snotty claims on who I know which are just as irrelevant.
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Post by jon snow loves sansa on May 11, 2019 19:38:09 GMT
a lack of scouting ahead when sea bound during a war with a practical navy … What is Bran doing all day? Watching porn? Just wondering.  he will be the WTF moment D&D promised us ..
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Marendil
Sophomore
@marendil
Posts: 750
Likes: 301
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Post by Marendil on May 11, 2019 21:48:58 GMT
What is Bran doing all day? Watching porn? Just wondering. he will be the WTF moment D&D promised us .. I never saw that quote in it's entirety, do you have a source?
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Post by jon snow loves sansa on May 12, 2019 20:48:33 GMT
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Post by Leo of Red Keep on May 13, 2019 7:13:10 GMT
Three Little Twists and the last is from the very end… I wouldn't think Daenerys turning that way is a real twist, since it was telegraphed about 4 seasons long, but who knows? They know they're writing for blind fucks, don't they? I fully expect some fuckery with bran in the very last scenes of the finale instead. But what do I know? Here's another fitting song. "Well I'm huffin', puffin', i'll blow your house in…" The original is not available worldwide:
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Post by hehatesshe on May 13, 2019 15:15:48 GMT
Damn, that army sure was tired. They should has rested for like a billion months.
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