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Post by Isapop on Jul 6, 2019 17:43:30 GMT
clusium
so because the Catholic church is church Jesus Christ started (as He started it with Peter, who's the first Pope (see Matthew 16:18), and went down the generations til today), and the one He guides, there is simply no alternative.
Any outsider looking at the record of the Catholic church (both its history and the horrifying scandals of today) would be repelled, and think, "If God has an institution, it couldn't be this one." My question is, if Jesus Christ is guiding this church, why would he allow it to look so disreputable?
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Post by clusium on Jul 6, 2019 17:57:40 GMT
clusium
so because the Catholic church is church Jesus Christ started (as He started it with Peter, who's the first Pope (see Matthew 16:18), and went down the generations til today), and the one He guides, there is simply no alternative.
Any outsider looking at the record of the Catholic church (both its history and the horrifying scandals of today) would be repelled, and think, "If God has an institution, it couldn't be this one." My question is, if Jesus Christ is guiding this church, why would he allow it to look so disreputable? Nobody said that the Church was perfect. Back in 2000, Pope St. John Paul II even observed a High Holy Mass in reparation for the past sins of the Catholic Church.
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Post by Isapop on Jul 6, 2019 18:16:14 GMT
Any outsider looking at the record of the Catholic church (both its history and the horrifying scandals of today) would be repelled, and think, "If God has an institution, it couldn't be this one." My question is, if Jesus Christ is guiding this church, why would he allow it to look so disreputable? Nobody said that the Church was perfect. Back in 2000, Pope St. John Paul II even observed a High Holy Mass in reparation for the past sins of the Catholic Church. So, a High Holy Mass and we can just write off the past? I'm not holding the Church to the standard of perfection. I'm saying that its history (including today) makes it look more like an abusive, greedy, and power hungry institution than any institution that was being guided by Christ would ever be. Hence, my question ("If Jesus Christ is guiding this church, why would he allow it to look so disreputable?)
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Post by clusium on Jul 6, 2019 19:31:02 GMT
Nobody said that the Church was perfect. Back in 2000, Pope St. John Paul II even observed a High Holy Mass in reparation for the past sins of the Catholic Church. So, a High Holy Mass and we can just write off the past? I'm not holding the Church to the standard of perfection. I'm saying that its history (including today) makes it look more like an abusive, greedy, and power hungry institution than any institution that was being guided by Christ would ever be. Hence, my question ("If Jesus Christ is guiding this church, why would he allow it to look so disreputable?)
You can' change the past, but, you can acknowledge one's mistakes. There are a lot institutions (be it religious, national, racial, etc) whose histories make them appear abusive, greedy, power hungry, etc. The reason being is because all of these, are made up of human beings, & human beings are abusive, greed, & power hungry.
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Post by Isapop on Jul 6, 2019 20:20:29 GMT
So, a High Holy Mass and we can just write off the past? I'm not holding the Church to the standard of perfection. I'm saying that its history (including today) makes it look more like an abusive, greedy, and power hungry institution than any institution that was being guided by Christ would ever be. Hence, my question ("If Jesus Christ is guiding this church, why would he allow it to look so disreputable?)
You can' change the past, but, you can acknowledge one's mistakes. There are a lot institutions (be it religious, national, racial, etc) whose histories make them appear abusive, greedy, power hungry, etc. The reason being is because all of these, are made up of human beings, & human beings are abusive, greed, & power hungry. But the institution that is guided by Christ would have a record that places them strikingly above those other institutions. It's head, Christ, would make sure his institution was seen by all to be so much better. Why has Christ allowed his institution to appear as just another abusive, greedy, & power hungry human led institution? An outsider could only conclude that it is simply just what it appears to be.
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Post by goz on Jul 6, 2019 21:34:07 GMT
Wow, if you hadn't quoted that, I never would have seen it. I have that poster on block because it's always the same old broken record. So, why did god the father wait until just 2,000 years ago to let humans know the "truth"? Humans have been around a lot longer, why not tell them the "truth" from the git-go? That is what has never made sense to me. And why not tell the same thing to every human on Earth? Why just one small band of nomads? I don't have an answer yet from that poster. They don't accept challenges to their set in stone beliefs and just quote the same old same old Catholic brainwashing and lists of alleged miracles as positive truth of what they believe, avoiding sticky questions where they might have to think.
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Post by rachelcarson1953 on Jul 6, 2019 21:51:49 GMT
Wow, if you hadn't quoted that, I never would have seen it. I have that poster on block because it's always the same old broken record. So, why did god the father wait until just 2,000 years ago to let humans know the "truth"? Humans have been around a lot longer, why not tell them the "truth" from the git-go? That is what has never made sense to me. And why not tell the same thing to every human on Earth? Why just one small band of nomads? I don't have an answer yet from that poster. They don't accept challenges to their set in stone beliefs and just quote the same old same old Catholic brainwashing and lists of alleged miracles as positive truth of what they believe, avoiding sticky questions where they might have to think. Yeah, tell me about it. Judging from the additional posts, you and I aren't the only ones with questions not being answered. While we are at it, let's ask why god would make all these greedy, abusive and power-hungry people, and then let them run his church? Edit: "It's hard to be religious when certain people are never incinerated by bolts of lightning." Bill Watterson
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Post by rachelcarson1953 on Jul 7, 2019 0:20:32 GMT
To quote clusium a few posts back... Yikes! I KNEW there was a good reason I decided to be vegetarian!
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Post by goz on Jul 7, 2019 0:50:20 GMT
To quote clusium a few posts back... Yikes! I KNEW there was a good reason I decided to be vegetarian! Yes, it is perfectly fine to accept the barbarity of yet using a condom to prevent unwanted pregnancies, risk of illness and disease is not!
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Post by clusium on Jul 7, 2019 2:59:44 GMT
You can' change the past, but, you can acknowledge one's mistakes. There are a lot institutions (be it religious, national, racial, etc) whose histories make them appear abusive, greedy, power hungry, etc. The reason being is because all of these, are made up of human beings, & human beings are abusive, greed, & power hungry. But the institution that is guided by Christ would have a record that places them strikingly above those other institutions. It's head, Christ, would make sure his institution was seen by all to be so much better. Why has Christ allowed his institution to appear as just another abusive, greedy, & power hungry human led institution? An outsider could only conclude that it is simply just what it appears to be.
Ever heard of "Free Will?" Christ Taught us right from wrong, but, it is ultimately up to us to follow.
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Post by clusium on Jul 7, 2019 3:01:42 GMT
If a man & a woman do not want to have a baby, the solution is pretty simple: Don't have sex. Ditto for AIDS & other STDs. I'm with mslo79 .We both love the Catholic Christian Church, & will never, ever leave. Pregnancy is just a consequence of hetero sex, sex is not just about procreation. How dare you be so pious and preach to anyone why they should or shouldn't have sex. It is up to each individual to take whatever precautions and stay out of their bedrooms perv. I speak the truth here. If people do not feel prepared to have a baby, & want to prevent the spread of STDs, then they should not have sex.
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Post by clusium on Jul 7, 2019 3:02:51 GMT
Christianitymore specifically... Catholic. because the Catholic church is the true church of Jesus Christ since it's the one He started with Peter (Matthew 16:18), who's basically the first Pope, and went down through the generations til today. a list of Popes from Peter to date... www.newadvent.org/cathen/12272b.htm ; so basically it's the one He guides. or look at it this way... the Catholic church is started by God (i.e. The Holy Trinity (Father/Son(Jesus Christ)/Holy Spirit)) where as others are started by man. so in other words... the Catholic church has the whole truth where as others only have some of it mixed in with error where as the Catholic church is infallible on it's official teachings on faith/morals (i.e. www.ewtn.com/faith/teachings/chura4.htm ). so it's unwise to be outside of the Catholic church as you lower your chances of reaching Heaven. yourself, Bigot.
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Post by goz on Jul 7, 2019 3:13:58 GMT
Pregnancy is just a consequence of hetero sex, sex is not just about procreation. How dare you be so pious and preach to anyone why they should or shouldn't have sex. It is up to each individual to take whatever precautions and stay out of their bedrooms perv. I speak the truth here. If people do not feel prepared to have a baby, & want to prevent the spread of STDs, then they should not have sex. I said this before butt you obviously didn't understand the whole meaning and consequences of what you are saying. Tell a Catholic mother of several children, in her 20s, who might be a peasant in a poor, country where they can't afford more children, that she has to refuse her husband sex for the next 20 years or so until she hits menopause.
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Post by clusium on Jul 7, 2019 3:18:04 GMT
I speak the truth here. If people do not feel prepared to have a baby, & want to prevent the spread of STDs, then they should not have sex. I said this before butt you obviously didn't understand the whole meaning and consequences of what you are saying. Tell a Catholic mother of several children, in her 20s, who might be a peasant in a poor, country where they can't afford more children, that she has to refuse her husband sex for the next 20 years or so until she hits menopause. Catholic spouses are equal partners & agree when or when not to have sex.
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Post by goz on Jul 7, 2019 3:25:51 GMT
I said this before butt you obviously didn't understand the whole meaning and consequences of what you are saying. Tell a Catholic mother of several children, in her 20s, who might be a peasant in a poor, country where they can't afford more children, that she has to refuse her husband sex for the next 20 years or so until she hits menopause. Catholic spouses are equal partners & agree when or when not to have sex. So no sex for either of them for 20 years? Great, especially since they can't get either an abortion or a divorce either! Catholic couples must be really stupid if they buy into this whole scenario. It is outdated, dangerous and really stupid when the technology is freely available not to mention destructive to marriages!
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Post by clusium on Jul 7, 2019 3:31:39 GMT
Catholic spouses are equal partners & agree when or when not to have sex. So no sex for either of them for 20 years? Great, especially since they can't get either an abortion or a divorce either! Catholic couples must be really stupid if they buy into this whole scenario. It is outdated, dangerous and really stupid when the technology is freely available not to mention destructive to marriages! A lot of loving couples do not continue to have sex, after having a certain number of kids. Hadn't stopped them from remaining very loving & happy together.
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Post by goz on Jul 7, 2019 4:22:40 GMT
So no sex for either of them for 20 years? Great, especially since they can't get either an abortion or a divorce either! Catholic couples must be really stupid if they buy into this whole scenario. It is outdated, dangerous and really stupid when the technology is freely available not to mention destructive to marriages! A lot of loving couples do not continue to have sex, after having a certain number of kids. Hadn't stopped them from remaining very loving & happy together. I frankly don't believe you.
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Post by goz on Jul 7, 2019 4:28:17 GMT
But the institution that is guided by Christ would have a record that places them strikingly above those other institutions. It's head, Christ, would make sure his institution was seen by all to be so much better. Why has Christ allowed his institution to appear as just another abusive, greedy, & power hungry human led institution? An outsider could only conclude that it is simply just what it appears to be.
Ever heard of "Free Will?" Christ Taught us right from wrong, but, it is ultimately up to us to follow. Yes, we all have it. It just has absolutely nothing to do with Jesus F Christ. The point being made is the abuse by the institution of of right and wrong and human happiness with the hypocrisy of using Jesus Christ as an excuse.
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Post by clusium on Jul 7, 2019 4:41:55 GMT
A lot of loving couples do not continue to have sex, after having a certain number of kids. Hadn't stopped them from remaining very loving & happy together. I frankly don't believe you. Suit yourself.
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Post by clusium on Jul 7, 2019 4:43:09 GMT
Ever heard of "Free Will?" Christ Taught us right from wrong, but, it is ultimately up to us to follow. Yes, we all have it. It just has absolutely nothing to do with Jesus F Christ. The point being made is the abuse by the institution of of right and wrong and human happiness with the hypocrisy of using Jesus Christ as an excuse. Yes, the point is the abuse, & it was precisely because they chose their own decisions rather than following the Teachings Of Christ.
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