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Post by damngumby on Jul 22, 2019 0:49:34 GMT
This thread is for those who understand the temporal mechanics as described in the movie.
Synopsis of the MCU time travel rules.
1. You can not change the past. If you travel to the past and cause a disruption to past events, you do not create a time paradox, you spawn a new timeline. A unique timeline that will ultimately forge it's own path, mostly independent of the original timeline.
2. You can not travel into the future. The future of any given timeline has not occurred yet. You can not travel to a point in time that does not exist. However, you can travel to another timeline that is chronologically ahead of your own (if it exists). Since it is an independent timeline, the events you witness there may or may not eventually occur in your own timeline.
So, how do we explain an old Steve Rogers showing up at the end of Endgame?
I have an answer ... I'm just wondering if anyone else picked up on the ramifications of his appearance.
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Post by hobowar on Jul 22, 2019 2:01:32 GMT
Maybe old Cap is a different Cap that came to our dimension a long time ago? Or maybe it was Mysterio messing about?
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Post by thisguy4000 on Jul 22, 2019 2:20:26 GMT
The only problem with the scene with old Steve Rogers is that it would’ve made a lot more sense if he teleported back on the platform as an old man, rather than randomly sitting at a bench, with Bruce, Sam and Bucky not even realizing he was there at first. The way the scene played out almost made it seem like the movie was contradicting its own rules regarding time travel.
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Post by poutinep on Jul 22, 2019 3:05:17 GMT
He traveled to the past in a different timeline, lived with Peggy (presumably), then returned to the present of his original timeline. I'm sure someone here won't understand this though... The only problem with the scene with old Steve Rogers is that it would’ve made a lot more sense if he teleported back on the platform as an old man nah if he returned to the same point he left, it would have been too reminiscent of when Lang returned as an old man... |
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Post by thisguy4000 on Jul 22, 2019 3:17:33 GMT
nah if he returned to the same point he left, it would have been too reminiscent of when Lang returned as an old man... I think they definitely could’ve had him show up at the platform as an old man and still retain the same emotional effect.
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Post by dazz on Jul 22, 2019 3:40:52 GMT
My thinking is due to the multiversal nature of the MCU timelines, Cap when he stayed in the past didn't alter the past, that was always meant to happen, so he was never in a separate timeline but his own, Steve going back is a fixed point in history it was always going to happen.
This is why we are never told Mr Carter's name, why she wouldn't have changed it either, why we never see a picture of her husband, and how Peggy managed to move on and have a happy life despite Steve being frozen and her always being in love with him, her husband was Steve all along they had a happy ever after all along and we just never knew it.
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Post by poelzig on Jul 22, 2019 3:50:42 GMT
Gobbling up whatever shit is pooped out without question is the mcu way. Too late to ask questions now. Just keep gobbling.
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Post by poutinep on Jul 22, 2019 3:54:25 GMT
nah if he returned to the same point he left, it would have been too reminiscent of when Lang returned as an old man... I think they definitely could’ve had him show up at the platform as an old man and still retain the same emotional effect. No it was better the way it was. It allowed for a moment of panic something might have gone wrong, realization of what happened, then a 1 on 1 conversation between Steve and Sam.
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Post by Nicko's Nose on Jul 22, 2019 18:17:18 GMT
Gobbling up whatever shit is pooped out without question is the mcu way. Too late to ask questions now. Just keep gobbling. Lol imagine being that bitter over people liking movies you don’t like.
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Post by poelzig on Jul 22, 2019 23:59:17 GMT
Gobbling up whatever shit is pooped out without question is the mcu way. Too late to ask questions now. Just keep gobbling. Lol imagine being that bitter over people liking movies you don’t like. Sup bro? Long time no snarky comments from you. I was afraid you were dead or something. Excellent point my caucasian. Why DO those mcu fanatics get so upset when DC Fan doesn't like the movies they do? It's quite vexing.
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Post by Lord Death Man on Jul 23, 2019 0:05:49 GMT
Gobbling up whatever shit is pooped out without question is the mcu way. Too late to ask questions now. Just keep gobbling. Lol imagine being that bitter over people liking movies you don’t like. I fully expected the Marvel brand to attain cultural ubiquity under any landlord but, I never expected its detractors to be so obsessed with feces and all the variants thereof... Cats are strong in that #ScatLife
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Post by James on Jul 23, 2019 0:27:50 GMT
Lol imagine being that bitter over people liking movies you don’t like. Sup bro? Long time no snarky comments from you. I was afraid you were dead or something. Excellent point my caucasian. Why DO those mcu fanatics get so upset when DC Fan doesn't like the movies they do? It's quite vexing. It’s not that he hates them because others do, it’s that he uses irrational arguments to hate them. |
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Post by damngumby on Jul 23, 2019 0:33:46 GMT
He traveled to the past in a different timeline, lived with Peggy (presumably), then returned to the present of his original timeline. I'm sure someone here won't understand this though... But, did he? If he lived, say, 50 years in the alternate timeline he created to be with Peggy Carter, wouldn't 50 years have also elapsed in the original timeline? The present day of the original timeline would have been 2073. But he appeared in 2023 as an old man. That means, per the rules, he re-entered the original timeline, in it's past ... What we were seeing, when he gave Falcon his shield, was an event that occurred in a brand new timeline. He could not have given the original Falcon the shield at that point in time of the original timeline because he and the shield were elsewhere. ... interesting
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Post by dazz on Jul 23, 2019 0:49:14 GMT
He traveled to the past in a different timeline, lived with Peggy (presumably), then returned to the present of his original timeline. I'm sure someone here won't understand this though... But, did he? If he lived, say, 50 years in the alternate timeline he created to be with Peggy Carter, wouldn't 50 years have also elapsed in the original timeline? The present day of the original timeline would have been 2073. But he appeared in 2023 as an old man. That means, per the rules, he re-entered the original timeline, in it's past ... What we were seeing, when he gave Falcon his shield, was an event that occurred in a brand new timeline. He could not have given the original Falcon the shield at that point in time of the original timeline because he and the shield were elsewhere. ... interesting Unless he can obtain a new shield some how, he knows of Wakanda, he could have gone there to get a new shield, proven himself in some way to T'Challa's Grandpappy, or gone to present day Wakanda and asked for one from T'Challa for Sam, or the Ancient One could have used magic or the time stone to fix it, or he could have stolen 2012 Cap whose booty he was checking out's shield, endless possibilities.
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Post by poutinep on Jul 23, 2019 0:49:53 GMT
He traveled to the past in a different timeline, lived with Peggy (presumably), then returned to the present of his original timeline. I'm sure someone here won't understand this though... But, did he? If he lived, say, 50 years in the alternate timeline he created to be with Peggy Carter, wouldn't 50 years have also elapsed in the original timeline? The present day of the original timeline would have been 2073. But he appeared in 2023 as an old man. That means, per the rules, he re-entered the original timeline, in it's past ... What we were seeing, when he gave Falcon his shield, was an event that occurred in a brand new timeline. He could not have given the original Falcon the shield at that point in time of the original timeline because he and the shield were elsewhere. ... interesting No...the same amount of time doesn't pass in the first timeline. You can be in one timeline for days, weeks, years in one timeline and return to the other just a few seconds after you left.
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Post by damngumby on Jul 23, 2019 9:38:36 GMT
But, did he? If he lived, say, 50 years in the alternate timeline he created to be with Peggy Carter, wouldn't 50 years have also elapsed in the original timeline? The present day of the original timeline would have been 2073. But he appeared in 2023 as an old man. That means, per the rules, he re-entered the original timeline, in it's past ... What we were seeing, when he gave Falcon his shield, was an event that occurred in a brand new timeline. He could not have given the original Falcon the shield at that point in time of the original timeline because he and the shield were elsewhere. ... interesting No...the same amount of time doesn't pass in the first timeline. You can be in one timeline for days, weeks, years in one timeline and return to the other just a few seconds after you left. Was there any indication in the movie that time advanced at a more rapid rate in the alternate timelines? I don't recall.
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Post by poutinep on Jul 23, 2019 14:56:50 GMT
No...the same amount of time doesn't pass in the first timeline. You can be in one timeline for days, weeks, years in one timeline and return to the other just a few seconds after you left. Was there any indication in the movie that time advanced at a more rapid rate in the alternate timelines? I don't recall. After the heist they all returned at the same time even though the missions couldn't possibly have all taken the same amount of time. It might have been stated explicitly during the test with Lang too...
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Post by Vassaggo on Jul 23, 2019 19:11:24 GMT
He traveled to the past in a different timeline, lived with Peggy (presumably), then returned to the present of his original timeline. I'm sure someone here won't understand this though... But, did he? If he lived, say, 50 years in the alternate timeline he created to be with Peggy Carter, wouldn't 50 years have also elapsed in the original timeline? The present day of the original timeline would have been 2073. But he appeared in 2023 as an old man. That means, per the rules, he re-entered the original timeline, in it's past ... What we were seeing, when he gave Falcon his shield, was an event that occurred in a brand new timeline. He could not have given the original Falcon the shield at that point in time of the original timeline because he and the shield were elsewhere. ... interesting At the end Falcon ask how long it would take. Hulk said something to the effect of "For him all the time he needs, for us around 5 seconds"
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Post by Prime etc. on Jul 23, 2019 19:16:12 GMT
He was old because they didn't want to encourage toxic masculinity.
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Post by Vassaggo on Jul 23, 2019 19:17:52 GMT
I like the explanation of Old Cap that he jumped from the Peggy Carter/Steve Rogers got married time line back to the main one. The suits all seem to have a tether to the space and time they are sent from. (you could say that he wasn't wearing a suit but we've seen the Quantum Suits absorb under their clothes a few times) So getting back to that location and time after Hulk tried to retrieve him is simple enough.
The one caveat is each time someone came back from the Quantium realm. They came back either infront of the tunnel. ie Antman. Or on a platform above the quantium tunnel. Hawkeye twice everyone else once.
It's not based on anything really in the movie, but my only justification is that Hulk built the second portable pad. While he is a genius tech isn't always his thing. (Time Travel really isn't his area of expertise) He could recreate the Tunnel but maybe it wasn't as accurate. Meaning that the retrieving could place the User near the pad but not on it.
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